Medic class?

BioHaz · May 2002

<div class="IPBDescription">How can hurt marines recover vitals?</div>I havnt seen health recovery or armor recovery discussed yet, so how about it? Will there eventually be a medic class or medipaks at the Marine base as well as armor pickups? Or do the marines just fight until they die with no medical support?

Fam · May 2002

As far as I remember, there will be no 'classes' for the marines, thats encroaching too far into the alien class-based team style.

Spyder_Monkey · May 2002

As of right now (everyone, together now -- STC), the commander has the ability to drop healthpacks to recover health.

pielemuis · May 2002

it's not dropping, it's phasing it in the gameworld <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

Hydro · May 2002

actually we did disguss about having a medic class just for healing and the topic didnt really end, but they are still thinking about maybe just maybe putting in a medic class or i think they are.

Spyder_Monkey · May 2002

I don't know about that. When playing commander I -really- like having total control of the troops' lives. I'm going to poorly quote Moleculor here: "Some marine decide to wander off. Those marines usually die."

Someone not following orders? Stop giving them ammo/health! Someone wants to play deathmatch? Keep giving him waypoints set to the most heavily infested alien sespools you can find. =) I'm heartless though.

Lazarus · May 2002

but as I said once in this some medi topic, there could be some anti-balance in the middle in a firefight because some marine could be almost dead, then commander would drop down couple of medikits, the marine would step 2 steps to the right, daddara, full health.

TychoCelchuuu · May 2002

its "cesspools" spyder, and i think takin the ability to give health away from the commander and giving it to the medics would devalue to much.

coil · May 2002

The original discussion talked about a portable medkit which takes up inventory, slows you down, and is equipped - as a regular weapon is. There was discussion over whether it was an actual medkit or some sort of "healing gun" - maybe like the repair gun in Giants: Citizen Kabuto.

I think a medkit as a "weapon" option is a great idea - the commander can still control things to some extent, and giving the medkit to a marine gives that marine a special role, almost a 2nd-in-command kind of thing.

There's also the thought that maybe the medic can't heal himself, so it's in the interest of the other marines to defend him... perhaps there could be a limited number of medkits distributable.

Slycaster · May 2002

Well, i know this is STC, but really, dropping down a ton of health in the middle of a fire fight without thinking is a waste of a ton of RP and its also very hard to predict where the marines will go to grab the health. When you are in a fire fight, your intent on firing, not looking around while theres 2 bobs on you to grab life, its much harder and less cheap as you would think, even in these sutiutations, marines usually die.

BioHaz · May 2002

I honestly really like the classbaised structure for the marines too, but not like in upgrades, more like specialties. The aliens seem more like upgrades than specialties.
Maybe parallel a typical RTS a little more by letting the commander spawn a very limited number of healthkits and ammopacks by the Marine's spawn zones for a very small resource hit per kit, and have the option to designate a player, or let the player choose (ala VIP in CS, and has to be approved by the commander to become a medic), to spawn as a medic class for a slightly larger resource hit. The medic class could have very limited weaponry, maybe a pistol and a gren and reduced armor, but have a near limitless medpak and the ability to very slowly heal themselves, but only if they are stationary. There could also only be a certain soldier-to-medic ratio. Maybe for every 4 or so marines, one medic would be allowed. This ratio could also become a server variable.

I think Marine Specialties should be an option in a future release of NS. One other class could be a Grenadier, with a much higher soldier-to-grenadier ratio and resource hit. The perks as playing as a Grenadier is that they get an RPG and more explosives, but lack standard firepower besides a pistol.

SNAFU · May 2002

Perhaps it would be best to simply make some sort of "first aid bag" that can hold a certain amount of medical supplies. This "weapon" could be recharged by excess health from your regular garden variety medkits, provided by your friendly neighborhood commander. So that would mean the medic is still dependent on the commander to be able to do his job. But maybe the medic's ammo for any other weapons (his sidearm.) would be more limited, and he could only heal others very slowly.

But what the heck do I know anyway? <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

BioHaz · May 2002

I dunno, I have nothin better to do at work besides read the NS forum and post my <i>insightful</i> commentary. <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

humbaba · May 2002

I think the medic gun is the best idea here. Im pretty sure that Flay wants to keep the system of Commander being in cotnrol of player lives. I don't think Flay will ever ever put in a class (Amen) but he might consider a weapon akin to the welder that uses helaht packs and dispenses them. The reason he might consider this is because the commander will be able to control who has the medicgun (hopefully a loya teamplayer) and it also avoids classes, plus it really takes a load off the commander and adds strategy in keepign the guy with the medic gun alive. It should not, however, be usable on yourself. This way, a player cant grab the medic gun and run around deathmatching and healing. Perhaps a limit one per team might also be good. Of course, this ais all hypothetical. I personally like the system of commanders dropping, but of all the potential solutions to health supply, this seems like the best IMHOP.

coil · May 2002

No classes, please. I know the devs have no plans on it. But for everyone else who's about to yell, "Yeah, classes would rock!" - don't. There WILL NOT be classes in NS. And I *seriously* doubt that's STC.

Vangor · May 2002

Well, I don't want a class, but how about this, you make a gun that looks like a basic melee ranged tranq gun, that is, one of those you have to poke someone with then inject em with the tranq. Well, it's not tranq, and maybe make it look a bit more futuristic, but it causes your blood to clot faster somehow, by adding in the platelettes or whatever are meant for blood clotting (not much into medical stuff sorry) to their blood count. This in turn slightly repairs them, by healing wounds faster, but this will be like a small overtime thing, like 1 health every 2 seconds over 20 seconds. They come with one thing of fluid, and you can get say two more as ammo or something, or it just comes with three altogether, dunno how the ammo system is working exactly.

Shuvit_Viper · May 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Spyder Monkey @ May 27 2002,15:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't know about that.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
dont know about that? go search the forums! The idea i gave in there was (IMO) the best solution for medics ever... look at my (very) nice drawing!!!... but i think if a medgun will ever be in (which i hope... because it just feels more right then a commander phasing in 'medpacks.. if you are hurt you must be taken care of, not just grabbing a pack and heal yourself) than i REALLY want it to be like this. I think Flayra will even implement it this way if the medgun is ever in...

<a href="http://www.natural-selection.org/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=1783;hl=medic+marine" target="_blank">Here is the Link</a>

Shuvit_Viper · May 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (coil @ May 28 2002,18:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No classes, please.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
i dont think the medic would be a marine class.. it would be a normal marine with (just like the welder) a 'medic gun'. If you want to see it in classes system, the marine with the welder is the 'welder class' and the marine with the medgun is the 'medic class'...

And in case you did not notice... the aliens have classes...

Kassinger · May 2002

Edit: Didn't see Shuvit's two posts before after posting.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">GH: Are you implementing any new ideas from the last build of the game? Any ideas from fans or friends that were used within the game? Any ideas that were too ludicrous or funny?

Flayra: Tons of ideas are too ludicrous or funny, but I won’t go into them here. There are many good ideas on our Ideas forum, but many are beyond the current scope of NS. I wish I could get people to realize that when you’re creating a game, you’re trying to <b>implement only the minimum set of features and art to communicate your vision.</b> More is not better, if nothing else, because each new feature adds complexity that will scare away more people then it’s depth will attract.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

I'd prefer having the commander handling that stuff, having the system as is. <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

As for the interview this quote was taken from, <a href="http://www.gamehelper.com/common/default.asp?App_Module=ARTICLES&ID=214" target="_blank">check this.</a>

Comments on it should go in <a href="http://www.natural-selection.org/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=2670" target="_blank">this thread.</a>

Moleculor · May 2002

I would love to see the Medipacks-from-heaven take a hike and the medi-gun put in. Something like the nanite repair gun from Tribes 2 or the repair gun from Giants would totally be perfect. (I don't really have much of a recollection as to how those repair guns in Giants worked, but they sound about right. Gun. Health. Yeah.)

coil · May 2002

I know the aliens have classes... and the marines don't. So let's keep it that way. (:

The Giants repair gun was a green, short-ranged ray that repaired your squadmates. You could also turn it back and use it on yourself. I really like the idea of a pistol-grip syringe, as Vangor was suggesting. It could inject a cocktail of clotting factors, antibodies against infection, antitoxins, and of course a nice surge of adrenaline and other chemicals to give the marine a boost and prevent the onset of shock. I also like the non-instantaneous restoration, though 2 health/sec might be a bit slow. Maybe on par with JK2's level-2 Force Healing.

Vangor · May 2002

Well, I was trying to find a happy medium. People want health, b ut people don't want the mystical health packs of half-life. Plus, it seems that they want to be a bit more realistic, so the drug gun (consider it a flare gun, with a bit smaller barrel, and a pokey thing on the end, and it shows like some liquid chamber for looks), would actually end up working for both sides. The low health makes people not be able to just abuse it by just spam injecting em, and was thinking over time would be nice, plus, you would still take like half a minute for a small gash to dry over with that stuff for it to truly work (to many platelettes can actually cause improper clotting, which happens within the blood streams, causing blood flow to stop in certain places). Speaking of the cocktail which coil said, are there any poisons or like unhealthy things that damage over time? Always has to be atleast something that is poisonous.

SNAFU · May 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Cyanide @ May 27 2002,13:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, i know this is STC, but really, dropping down a ton of health in the middle of a fire fight without thinking is a waste of a ton of RP and its also very hard to predict where the marines will go to grab the health. When you are in a fire fight, your intent on firing, not looking around while theres 2 bobs on you to grab life, its much harder and less cheap as you would think, even in these sutiutations, marines usually die.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
So then the commander can drop health packs just about anywhere? <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

I'm sorry, but that doesn't seem right to me. Not necessarily on the part of the marine, who is, like you said, probably preoccupied in the all-important task of not dying, but on the part of the commander himself.

Fact: the most important resource in ANY game whatsoever is the player's attention.

If I was commander, I wouldn't want to waste my time dropping medkits as fast as I could into a hot and heavy firefight. I have weapons to upgrade, nukes to deliver, sentries to set up, buildings to build, doors to weld shut, aliens to corner and kill, camaras to watch, sensors to adjust, dogs to wash,(Where the heck did THAT come from?) OTHER troops to make miserable and boss around. All that, and you expect me to control-click a bunch of medkits to you? Medkits you might never pick up? Right... <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

Now a "medic gun" seems like a much better idea, but balenced out of course; the commander still controls the amount of medical supplies the "medic" has to dispense.

Hollow · May 2002

Maybe the marines could have something similar to the stimpaks of StarCraft...an injection of adrenaline that boosts health above normal, but you health will slowly drop back down.

Vangor · May 2002

Ehh, well that isn't the same theory on the medical need. boosting your health to 125, then having it drop back down to around 110 when you finally meet an enemy isn't exactly going ot heal you from dieing from that last slash, although it is a technical heal as it adds more to health. Think more along the lines of, you're hurt, you want to live. I still believe my gun idea is good, and not to unrealistic.

BioHaz · May 2002

The medic gun would be neat, like an all-purpose hypospray, but again, the person or people who have that and can use it would techically be considered a 'medic class' as previously mentioned. The pro to having an actual medic class would be the marines would know which one of them they would have to protect should things get really messy, whereas not many would know off the top of thier head which one of thier squad had a working medigun. At least I think thats how it would be. And having multiple people decide to whip out thier medigun and heal others in a firefight could actually reduce the effectiveness of the team, unless the commander told an individual to heal another (which could, again, have a person become a full time medic anyways.)

Im kinda mixed on the feeling of having the commander have absolute control over the grunts lives. On the one hand the control keeps the units in line and listening to the commander's orders, on the other hand, some individuals work best with little supervision (I know a lone marine has little, or no chance, but by not having to hold that marine's hand allows for more focus elsewhere.) I can see telling them where to go and what to do when they get there ok, but by not allowing some of the more skilled players the little bit of leeway to decide the best Course of action when dealing with enemy units could become more of a handicapp on the advanced players. But then again, the few who repeatedly wander off and disreguard orders should be repremanded and put onto a leash. I beleve that until they completely disreguard orders, they should be allowed some latitude.

Now forcing control over a <i>[hypothetical]</i> medic class, I do not see an upside to keeping the medic on a leash. Not allowing a medic to do his job with autonomy(keep your marines alive) by not allocating the necessary amounts of medikits (or ammo for the healthgun <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>) seems more of a detriment to survival than a way of keeping the marines in line. If NS was to only have one actual marine class (besides grunt of course), it should be a medic.
How a medic actually heals is still up for debate <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

ChromeAngel · May 2002

I like the sound of the health-gun. Trouble is that you don't have a high degree of control over who gets it. 50% of the time when the commander places an item for a specific marine, someone else picks it up, either accidentally or on purpose.

Having the health gun doesn't make you a medic class any more than having the welder makes you engineer class. You can still tote an HMG along with the rest of the squad and switch over when it's needed. A problem arises from this is that you don't always know when you've got the welder/health-gun, when you're down to 3% health and a level 4 is closing in, are you seriously going to scroll through your teritary weapons to see if you've got the air-hypo? I think not.

Phasing med-kits into a firefight is a laugh, really annoys the aliens though.

Shuvit_Viper · May 2002

i think you realize you pick something up. You hear a pickup sound... i think its really obvious enough. and the marine with the medic gun would just be a bit at the back of the squad, so that marines that need healing can fall back and be healed... i think the medgun can bring so much more fun to the game than the health-dropped-packages...

DruBo · May 2002

Med-gun type things have been done before in HL. Like the health pack that you smack people with in Svencoop, which uses ammo that recharges over time. You'd just have to change the model and the sound on the same code, and you're set.

SNAFU · May 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (BioHaz @ May 29 2002,06:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Now forcing control over a <i>[hypothetical]</i> medic class, I do not see an upside to keeping the medic on a leash. Not allowing a medic to do his job with autonomy(keep your marines alive) by not allocating the necessary amounts of medikits (or ammo for the healthgun <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>) seems more of a detriment to survival than a way of keeping the marines in line.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Well, guess what? The military works this way today.

My dad just retired from the U.S Navy (as a Commander of course. <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> ), so he knows how this stuff works.

The corpsman (the medical supervisor, for those of you who don't know what a corpsman is. And it's said "core-man", like Marine Corps.) is the guy who handles medical supplies on the base. The way it works is that the base commander says to the corpsman "I'm giving you 10 tons of medical equipment, including bandages, first aid kits, and other supplies. Use them as you see fit." And so the corpsman uses them. Once he's out, he requests more. If the commander says no, that means no. If people die because of such a lack of medical supplies, then it's the commander's fault. If it is just plain negligence on the part of the commander... he should expect to hear from the brass about his dishonorable discharge. Or, in the case of NS, a vote to kick you out of command. Pure and simple.

So then the commander can hold a leash, but let the dogs p*$s whereever they want. (O.K that was bad...)

Hida_Tsuzua · May 2002

All this talk of a "heal gun" reminds me of the "Mace of Healing" from a D&D game. Basically you have to hit them with mace quite hard. Then the magic heals the damage dealt along with some extra HP. Made for a sadistic but effective tool.

Anyways, why not have a "medical armor" or something upgrade? Upgrade the armor so that it can inject small amounts of nanites as needed, allowing regen at a <i>slow</i> rate (maybe 1 every other second?). The alien might already have something similar, just call it parallel evolution.

As for heal gun, a pistol-gripped syringe sounds silly to me. It should be more like a hypospry.