The Slippery Slope
LazerMane
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2135Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2135Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Or Why I am an obnoxious fool</div> Not to get anyone down or try to provoke anything, but its becoming more and more apparent to me that NS suffers from the most extreme case of Slippery Slope that i have EVER seen. Fifteen seconds is all it takes to fix the fate of the entire round. In this game, its all about who controls what <i>first</i>. At the moment there is usually NEVER a chance of a come-back. A point gets capped by the marines the moment they finish building a phase-gate, a point belongs to the aliens the moment the Hive there gets built.
The two other things i wanted to get off my chest was <b>A:</b> Marines, their Jetpacks and the Heavy Machineguns. Don't flame me for this, because i really do think it is a problem. Remember back when Turret Farming was the key to victory? Well now it consists of weapons upgrades, a jetpack and advanced weaponry from the air. Don't tell me there is a perfectly reasonable counter to a JP/HMG combo and a good player, because there isn't. Okay, massive O Chamber forests or perhaps a fleet of Lerk units could stop it, but seriously, most melee classes really can't do jack-crap to them as they breeze over your head. The other thing i wanted to simply state was
<b>B:</b> Now a days i see marines and other skulks bitching to the Gorge or the Comm that they were doing it all wrong, that X needed to go this way, that this needed to be done first. With the marines, Turrets are no longer an option, with the Kharra, it always has to come Defence/Movement/Sensory and the Gorge who does it differently gets flamed and discouraged to the point of leaving. What i would like to see in the future is not ONE method of strategy for a team as there is now, but a multitude of methods that each team could use to accomplish their goal. Several branches of a tree, several methods of building your base, several strategies that each soldier or alien could learn to use wisely. With the Kharra it would be as simple as re-ordering the Upgrade Towers and adapting accordingly. With the marines it would be up to the commander. If the Comm thinks that Turret Farming is a viable option, then it should BE a viable option. If he thinks that building an army of HA grunts weilding banana cannons and deploying them in waves is a good idea, it SHOULD be available to him. Both teams should have many different strategies to work on and the opposing team should have a rock-solid counter-strategy for it. The gametime should be slowed down to encourage Gorge and Commanders using strategy to win, not blunt disposal of resources quickly and without second thought.
I do sincerely hope that NS v1.1 addresses these issues, because frankly, games that suffer from Slippery Slope are very frustrating to be on the losing end of. I hate to have that disparing feeling set in in my stomache when we know that more or less, offence or not, we have lost the round. NS is playable at the moment, and it is very enjoyable, but i see so much more potential there.
In the mean time until 1.1 comes out, sit back, play some good ol' Mech Warrior 2 music whilst you play NS and wonder why you always seem to be on the losing team, and hope and pray that Flayra doesn't catch fire on a Sunday night and bring development of this glorious mod crashing to its knees.
*zips up patented For-um-flame Neoprene coated asbestos lined bio-suit and walks into a 20 foot thick concrete bunker, sits down, and waits*
LM
The two other things i wanted to get off my chest was <b>A:</b> Marines, their Jetpacks and the Heavy Machineguns. Don't flame me for this, because i really do think it is a problem. Remember back when Turret Farming was the key to victory? Well now it consists of weapons upgrades, a jetpack and advanced weaponry from the air. Don't tell me there is a perfectly reasonable counter to a JP/HMG combo and a good player, because there isn't. Okay, massive O Chamber forests or perhaps a fleet of Lerk units could stop it, but seriously, most melee classes really can't do jack-crap to them as they breeze over your head. The other thing i wanted to simply state was
<b>B:</b> Now a days i see marines and other skulks bitching to the Gorge or the Comm that they were doing it all wrong, that X needed to go this way, that this needed to be done first. With the marines, Turrets are no longer an option, with the Kharra, it always has to come Defence/Movement/Sensory and the Gorge who does it differently gets flamed and discouraged to the point of leaving. What i would like to see in the future is not ONE method of strategy for a team as there is now, but a multitude of methods that each team could use to accomplish their goal. Several branches of a tree, several methods of building your base, several strategies that each soldier or alien could learn to use wisely. With the Kharra it would be as simple as re-ordering the Upgrade Towers and adapting accordingly. With the marines it would be up to the commander. If the Comm thinks that Turret Farming is a viable option, then it should BE a viable option. If he thinks that building an army of HA grunts weilding banana cannons and deploying them in waves is a good idea, it SHOULD be available to him. Both teams should have many different strategies to work on and the opposing team should have a rock-solid counter-strategy for it. The gametime should be slowed down to encourage Gorge and Commanders using strategy to win, not blunt disposal of resources quickly and without second thought.
I do sincerely hope that NS v1.1 addresses these issues, because frankly, games that suffer from Slippery Slope are very frustrating to be on the losing end of. I hate to have that disparing feeling set in in my stomache when we know that more or less, offence or not, we have lost the round. NS is playable at the moment, and it is very enjoyable, but i see so much more potential there.
In the mean time until 1.1 comes out, sit back, play some good ol' Mech Warrior 2 music whilst you play NS and wonder why you always seem to be on the losing team, and hope and pray that Flayra doesn't catch fire on a Sunday night and bring development of this glorious mod crashing to its knees.
*zips up patented For-um-flame Neoprene coated asbestos lined bio-suit and walks into a 20 foot thick concrete bunker, sits down, and waits*
LM
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Sentences. Paragraphs. Please ?
3 -5 minutes of <b>everything</b> going wrong can cost the game sure. 15 seconds ? Don't think so.
JP/HMG. Old news, can be defeated if you prepare for it, being nerfed in 1.1 anyway.
Re: gorges and comms, fair enough, I agree. Whether wrong or right you didn't step into the CC/go gorge when everyone was lookin at each other at the start of the round. If you think you can do better, you take on that responsibility next round. I must admit to sometimes having a kneejerk response to TFs in base within the first 3 minutes.
However a gorge who builds a SC when all his teamates want a DC isn't really working in a team.
All other comments re: stratagies, they're being handled in 1.1.
And if <b>anyone</b> posts the sirlin piece on SS i'll scream.
^_^
LM
When me and a few buddies invade a pub and join the same team i dont think we have ever lost. it only takes a few ppl working together to win, as long as the rest of the team doesnt go off and do something stupid (attack as fades as soon as the 2nd hive goes up :/ )
The fact is, if you lose then u lost for a REASON! not just cuz the marines jp/hmg rushed u. what were your teamamtes doing? locking down the second hive while the marines were researching? prolly not.
outerfroggy1, i hope you understand that if you use text abbreviations when they are absolutely not called for (examples "ppl", "n00b", "u" and the infamous "cuz") then you shall recieve no respect whatsoever from me. You had the time to do it, so please type it all out so that we may have a higher first-opinion of you. Typing in abbreviations and slang like that is acceptable ingame because it makes for shorter time typing and faster communication. Just please do not do it here.
Unfortunately, more than 70% of all people who play NS are not in a clan, including myself. Clan matches where people know each other and work together happen, and during these times NS is fairly balanced. However, for the rest of us that don't WANT the commitment to a clan, what do we do then? Delete NS? Destroy our Halflife disk? Of course not. More than not people play to have fun at a casual pace and this is the majority that should be catered to. NS even has a competition mode i think specifically for clannies that like to have massive amounts of teamplay going on.
Phoenix, you may scream now. I actually read that Sirlin article a long time ago when it first came about, and i call it the Slippery Slope because it is a lot easier than taking the time to explain it all over again.
Oh, and yes. 15-30 seconds. Is it not posible for two marines to build a phase gate and have the entire team pour into the hive location during that time? Why, yes, i think it is. This happened on at least three occasions i remember from last night. Is it not possible for a gorge to have a wall of three O Chambers and one D Chamber up in under a minute? I think it is. Deciding factors of this game can occur under a very TINY amount of time. What i was saying there is that i am one of the protesters against the new decree that round-time is being shortened in the next version.
That is all, I'm off for a curry.
LM
I don't consider myself great player or even a very knowledgeable player but, I do consider myself a player willing to accept what is what and try to have some fun even though it may not seem fun for the others on my team or around me. The only real aspect of the game that bugs me is when some "Mr. Know-It-All" comes into the game and starts yelling at everybody for being a "n00b." Boy, that really pisses me off.
LM
Its quite the opposite in a public server. Noone really knows how to work as a team, especially newer players who are just trying to learn the game. In my opinion this REALLY hurts the Marine team, as they are totally reliant on how well they mesh as a team. This is even more noticible in games with a small amount of people. Like 4 on 4 or 3 on 3. If you get one newbie marine or a couple rambo's, you can basically kiss that round goodbye cause you won't win.
On the other side, the Aliens only really need one person with a clue, the Gorge. You could have 3 or 4 other skulks running around killing what they can if they can, just by randomly running across it, and eventually that gorge will have 2 hives, and when hes playing against the above Marine team, its game over.
I've seen this scenario play out hundreds of times on my server. I welcome all newbies and people that want to learn the game, but unfortunatly the game just isn't balanced for this type of play. Its better balanced for clan matches. Two teams that have a clue about how to play as a team, will have a very good, hard fought, enjoyable match. Throw some newbies in the mix and the Marines lose ALOT more than the Aliens.
This is why your seeing a Slippery Slope effect. The inexperienced players just don't know enough about the game, and the maps, to understand what are key areas to defend or attack. I've seen many games where both teams had good skilled teamates and these games always ended up being the funnest, as they last the longest and had the best, hardest fought battles. More often than not, its the prior case...
How do you fix this? I have no idea! As a server Admin, I try to get the Alien skulks to NOT rush the Marines and give them time to get some adequate defenses up before we pester them. This extends the game, and gives the Marines a chance to stand on their feet before they have to deal with some battles. But it really does only that, extends the game... because the Aliens just make sure the Marines get no resource spots, and well.. the Marines cannot win that way.
I'm sure 1.1 will change things dramatically, and hopefully in the newbie Marine teams favor, cause honestly I could care less about Clan games and matches, more players are NOT in clans than are in, and if everytime a newbie tries to play NS and they get spanked as a Marine, they are just going to brush the game off as unbalanced and uninstall.
G.I.
thats why I think the PT games where the best, we where there to try everything and to have fun ...
too bad all the public realy cares about is winning.
What game have you been playing? Phase gates make a place instantly captured? o_0
Sure, it's hard to organize a good skulk assault on a public server, but it's PLAUSIBLE. I've seen it done semi-often. This isn't deathmatch, this is teaaaamwork.
1.1 is making far more drastic changes than any previous patch, so I expect were gonna have a drastically different game.
This could not be any more incorrect than Oprah refusing twenty pounds of Twinkies. Just yesterday on Nano-Gridlock my team of aliens (I was the gorge) attacked the marine base after they got our second hive down and make the commander recycle. I was an offensive gorge and plopped down about 4-5 OCs while the skulks attacked the marines that phased through. If your theory was to hold true this would not be possible - but not only did the aliens take the marine base, the marines killed our hives -- also should not be possible under your little theory. It does not matter if there are 408084230 turrets and 48023084 phases, a good team that can function well (they don’t have to be good players, they just need to go together) can destroy anything.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unfortunately, more than 70% of all people who play NS are not in a clan<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and 90% of all statistics are made up on the spot....
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The game *is* decided a long time before it is over. Yes, a comeback is possible. But it's not likely, and *that* is the problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What servers are you people playing on!?!? The problem isn't the fact that the opposing team is superior to you (you can, most of the time create a situation where it levels the playing field a little) the problem is people like the one I quoted. If you think you cannot win, or comeback, you aren’t even going to try. If you aren’t even going to try then you aren’t going to win. Fades do not mean the marines lost, HA/HMG/JP's dont mean the aliens lost. If people were not so negative, and used tactics with a combination of skill then you would see a lot more comebacks.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh, and yes. 15-30 seconds. Is it not possible for two marines to build a phase gate and have the entire team pour into the hive location during that time? Why, yes, i think it is. This happened on at least three occasions i remember from last night. Is it not possible for a gorge to have a wall of three O Chambers and one D Chamber up in under a minute? I think it is. Deciding factors of this game can occur under a very TINY amount of time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, a phase gate can be build in 15-30 seconds, yes, a wall of chambers can be build in about a minute. However, this especially true with the wall of chambers, the team needs a sustained flow of RPs into order to construct and maintain these structures. That's where the other team comes in - you are suppose to attack their RP flow and disrupt their plans. If you don’t do that, then you are asking for trouble.
Are you aware that phase gates work two ways? Most people that come to the forums don’t think outside of the box and despite complain about "one way to do things" even though they are no different and think in the conventional means. One of my favorite tricks is to have one of our fades/lerks/a lot of skulks just let the marines run into the hive (you should have OC's up to stall them) then you all just phase through into the marine base. The commander is almost always looking over at the attacking marines and hardly ever notices that his base is being torn to shreds. At this point one of two things has happened, the marines have come back in which case you have just saved your hive - or you have destroyed all the buildings in the marine base (minus the CC). If the later is true, then go on a hunt for the remaining marines (they have no IPs) and keep a skulk or two at the CC so when the com pops out he is dead. With no reinforcements they marines die - and you have just successfully countered their attack by bringing the fight to their base. This works _alot_ of the time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don’t know about anyone else, but when I play I usually see 2-3 locations change hands several times during the course of a match.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, it happens all the time, maybe the original poster only played two or three games of NS and they were one sided.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What game have you been playing? Phase gates make a place instantly captured? o_0<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even more true now that the phase gates HP have been lowered.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Whoever thinks the game is decided in 15 seconds(minus lamer comms/gorges) is crazy. There are lots of things that can happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Crazy like a fox!!!!!!!
At least the last three people know how the game is to be played and can come up with tactics to counter what others come to the forums and complain about.
Reason: teammates. Bad build order/multiple or idiot gorges. However, I think that anyone who assumes a loss in that time has issues. Games are won and lost on the skill of your players. If you've got a bajillion newbies on your team, you're sure gonna have a harder time pulling off a victory, but don't assume you've instantly lost.
For those of you who don't want to engage in clan to play serious, yet balanced games, you' get the all too often heard "find a better server" or "bring good players to your server response". Veterans playing with newbies get old fast for both parties. I find that 90% of the time I'm stuck with newbies, I'd rather not gorge or command, simply because I can run around the map inflicting a lot of damage, and will be more useful to the team there.
As for jetpacks/HMGs, I can't say I've seen it work in about the last 15 games I've played. Mostly, everyone is prepared for it. A preemptive lerk and some OC's in the hive get the job done. A rushed second hive with no defence or offense is asking to be downed, and the same goes for your primary hive.
As for your part B: I wholeheartedly agree that your team should agree with your commander. And that the commander should communicate what his plan of action is. A lot of people are against a TF in spawn, just because it's currently a waste or resources when you've got perfectly good marines there for shooting. However, I find it's a little easier to siege a hive than to have your marines run in with JP/HMGs. Might be slower, but the level of human error is drastically lowered.
As for the Kharaa, reordering chamber strategy is going to bother a lot of people, simply because a hive 1 alien will hurt bad without DCs. But I do agree that a lot of people are not as open minded as some. It's either because of inexperience or a constant ingrained idea of DC/MC/SC. And then there are those who attempt each chamber differenly, and come to realize that their team is most effective with the current chamber order. As much strategy as there is in this game, it is all too often decided on who can kill better - as marine or alien. The better upgraded the killer, the more likely the team with most competant killers will win.
Fortunately, I got done SIEGING their 2nd hive just then, and rebuilt my base in a different hive. Been a while since I had used them, but we pulled some phase gates together with turrets to win the game.
It's all about being flexible in your strategy. All too often I see "commander, i'm at a hive. I need a phase gate and TF here now". If the aliens only have one hive, how about an armory and some mines? Maybe a backup soldier too.
Here is the box:
+-----+
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+-----+
Like steve says, think outside of it.
AAARRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!1111
"once the marines have a phase gate someplace they hold it" do you honostly think about what you are saying before you post? I have had games where the marines held 2 hives with phase gates, turrets, mines, the works...and we successfully took one back. Wanna know how? Communication. Here is what you do in that case you nub...
you get 2 skulks to go to their main base, the rest go to a hive of the teams choosing. Lets just say we are gonna take cargo...The 2 skulks go into the main base FIRST and start attacking the phase gate...the comm says "EVERYONE HOME BASE UNDER ATTACK" when people start phasing, the other attack team goes in and takes out the phase gate at cargo. If all is successful, and the skulks get regen, you'll be able to drop the phase and start taking out the turretts. Then you get the gorge to run in and build O chambers and D chambers everywhere. Thats how you take back a hive as alien.
This isnt even worth my keystrokes, if you tards out there still think that the game is unbalanced then CS is your game, not NS. bai...
Wow. Sentry, you took my words right out of my mouth. THANK YOU <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Mmmmmk, if that is the case then I hope you are fluent in all those languages - because to win in NS you need to know what your teammates are saying and you need to relay information back to them. If you know 7 languages then more power to you...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's a downward spiral, and every second the spiral goes down. You can stop it early, but that's it. Unfortunately, "early" is not nearly long enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could not be more right in that statement -- assuming the loosing team is staring at the wall wondering what sexy British man made those textures in Eclipse instead of attacking the marines. Taking a marine base isn’t that hard, even if you have "just" skulks. The most powerful element for the aliens is the gorge. A good offensive gorge can take out a room all by himself -- Teppla can do it about 4/10 times (that may seem like a low percent, but its just one person vs a whole base, what do you expect?). You can correct what you call the "downward spiral" by destroying one of their bases. One of the best places to hit is their main base - usually it has no Tfac in it and the marines don’t pay attention to it late game. If you do nothing but sit around, then yes - the "spiral" will spill downward quite quickly...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And don't try that "positive attitude" crap on <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeh…That’s what I’m talking about! Winning spirit all the way! Things like that make me wonder if they just see marines with JPs and HMGs and pull down console, type quit, then come to the forums to complain.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->BTW, eating chocolate is a much more efficient way to get the same effect. Perhaps you should try that while losing.
But okay, I get an Onos, you get an LMG and a positive attitude. Let's see who win, shall we?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did it ever occur to you that if they have an Onos and you are an LMG w/o any upgrades that you <i>deserve</i> to loose? What have you been doing the whole game? I know the hidden lady in the Eclipse Command hive is cute -- but you've got aliens to kill! If you have put yourself in this position then its not the games "unbalances" that are at fault, and you should <i>not</i> be able to win the game unless you are extremely skilled. I really don’t know what you were trying to say with this statement of yours, it just is reinforcing NS's current system due to the fact that the more advanced unit wins most of the time (which, from the sound of it, is not the way some people want it)
Also, as stated before (even you quoted this one!) --
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem isn't the fact that the opposing team is superior to you <b>(you can, most of the time create a situation where it levels the playing field a little)</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I am trying to say here is that even advanced, powerful units have a counter. You have to find, and then exploit that counter to effectively kill them. What could I mean by this? If word comes to you that they have an Onos most people would probably pretend they didn’t hear it and go about the game until they come in contact with one. They either run, or stand a fire. The Onos destroys them like the weak fools they are - but what if logic was used in this situation. Note: Not skill, not teamplay - just logic. When I get word that an Onos is on the map, I go to one of our expansions/main base and find an area that the Onos cannot easily get to me. Such things like vents, light fixtures, and other architectural shapes/designs that put me above the Onos playing field. It’s quite easy to find, and not that hard to get a boost from a teammate (if need be) - no matter how incompetent you say your team is. Once in this position you can lay waste to the Onos and do more damage that if you were standing eye to eye. Logic prevails.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In other words: If your team is better than the other, you win. Sure, you can make a comeback if your team work together. But what if the *other* team work together as well? What you're saying is "stop being worse than the other team", which is not only a rather unnecessary statement. It's also counter-productive to your case. If you're better than the other team, *you* will be the one to be on the winning side, and the other team will be in the spiral. So what do they do? Become better? Then you'll be in the spiral... etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like I said, for every attack there is a counter. Is your team good enough to find and then exploit that? Of course the winning team will prevail. What there is "counter-productive to my case." If the aliens are loosing you cant expect the game to magically make skulks have 3,000 HP so they can beat the marines. <b>Of course skill and teamplay are a part of the game!</b> It's what makes the game! If you cannot function as a team, if you cannot properly use the tools given to you, if you cannot properly deal with something that isn’t going your way then YOU WILL LOOSE. NS is setup so that if both teams are equal in skill, the game will match out evenly and it will be one hell of a epic game - but that is RARE. It is human nature to MAKE MISTAKES and not be perfectly matched with your opponents. It is naive and foolish to not think skill and teamwork, the very basis on which the game was formed, don’t enter into equation when you wish to figure out who the winning team will be.
An NS related example is the hopping to avoid being bitten and crouching in bizzare locations to screw up hitboxes. Discussed to death on these forums, so I decided to make a stand, you will NEVER see me abusing either of these things. It _may_ mean I die more, but if I can beat these people without use of bugs/expliots it proves that I am the BETTER player, while still playing to win. I want to win, but I want to win because I have more skill, not "skill" as in the article, who can deny a win in that context is not more enjoyable then "winning" due to poor programming etc.
Something I did take away from the article is that every stratigy has a counter. People need to get out of the mind set there is only ONE way to do things. I prefere a arms lab rush while holding rts to get level 3 upgrades to deal with the fades. An upgraded la/lmg marine is a match for any level 2 alien lifeform. Other people prefere the two hive lockdown, others the jp/hmg rush. There ARE many ways to do things, so if one plan is failing, dont beat the dead horse, try something else and watch as the aliens (or marines) carefully laid plans come crashing down around them, and if they don't adapt, they die.
IT'S TIME TO EVOLVE! <-- more then just a tag line, the winning plan for this game
Exactly! All too often I see people quiting because they haved tried one strategy, and it failed.
Its the team controlling cargo and small a second base outside of it.
all other maps have the ability of loosing and reclaiming hive positions all the time.
An NS related example is the hopping to avoid being bitten and crouching in bizzare locations to screw up hitboxes. Discussed to death on these forums, so I decided to make a stand, you will NEVER see me abusing either of these things. It _may_ mean I die more, but if I can beat these people without use of bugs/expliots it proves that I am the BETTER player, while still playing to win. I want to win, but I want to win because I have more skill, not "skill" as in the article, who can deny a win in that context is not more enjoyable then "winning" due to poor programming etc.
Something I did take away from the article is that every stratigy has a counter. People need to get out of the mind set there is only ONE way to do things. I prefere a arms lab rush while holding rts to get level 3 upgrades to deal with the fades. An upgraded la/lmg marine is a match for any level 2 alien lifeform. Other people prefere the two hive lockdown, others the jp/hmg rush. There ARE many ways to do things, so if one plan is failing, dont beat the dead horse, try something else and watch as the aliens (or marines) carefully laid plans come crashing down around them, and if they don't adapt, they die.
IT'S TIME TO EVOLVE! <-- more then just a tag line, the winning plan for this game <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
In real life, if the marines found a way to somehow move on their own faster than the aliens, they would 100% guaranteed use it. In natural selection there is no such thing as 'chivalry'...it is the survival of the fittest, and if the fittest are that way because they found an exploit - well, so be it, that's the way the game is played. Good thing though, 1.1 is going to take away some of those exploits - and the process of "natural selection" will swing the other way once again. Survival is not about skill - it's about staying alive. If you are the best swordsman in the world, and end up dying to a pistol shot, yes that's cheap - but you're still dead.
It seems to me that one of the anti-slippery-slope arguments/examples consists of two parts:
A) Get your team into position
B) Go forth and kick butt
Example:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you get 2 skulks to go to their main base, the rest go to a hive of the teams choosing. Lets just say we are gonna take cargo...The 2 skulks go into the main base FIRST and start attacking the phase gate...the comm says "EVERYONE HOME BASE UNDER ATTACK" when people start phasing, the other attack team goes in and takes out the phase gate at cargo. If all is successful, and the skulks get regen, you'll be able to drop the phase and start taking out the turretts. Then you get the gorge to run in and build O chambers and D chambers everywhere. Thats how you take back a hive as alien.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is apparently not understood is that part A) is FRICKEN IMPOSSIBLE ON A PUB SERVER. People listen in an inverse proportion to how much effort is required on their part. Even "Wait! Don't run in yet!" is beyond most people, it seems.
On top of that, the other side usually doesnt wait for you to put your master plan into action (Unless they are 2 hive marines) - So you're all ready to storm a marine base when, say, your hive comes under attack. On a pub, REGARDLESS of if it's only one rambo marine, and that the position you're about to assault is a hive, people will run back. Or perhaps a few marines come out of main base and waste the two skulks that were supposed to attack (as per above quote). In a pub, one of these things would likely happen:
One of the diversion-skulks runs off as soon as he spawns, dies on route, or possibly makes it all the way to the base, rushes in and is cut down instantly, but still says "K they are going to go back to their main now!" triggering the en masse suicide of the aliens into the well-occupied base. Or most of the attack force strays away instead of waiting for the two to get back into position. Or one/both of the skulks decide "nevermind..." and go off to do something else, possibly without telling anyone, and creating a nightmare for the organizer(s): "One more skulk go to the marine main base. No, not three, ONE. The west entrance. No, the WEST entrance. No, don't go in NOW! Argh, #($*%@)*%!!!"
And there are millions of other ways the plan could screw up and only one way it can succeed.
I.e. Marines come across pile of skulks waiting nearby outpost, kill a bunch of them, resulting in something like I said above (leaving, not waiting for them to respawn, whatever).
The vent you were planning to rush through got welded, and the diversion skulks just died.
Player inepitude (going for the turrets/comm chair first, etc.)
A HA/HMG stayed behind to guard and pwns half your attack force by himself.
Etc.
Point being:
Instead of you clanners saying "Look, if you want to have REAL fun in NS, join a clan", try out some of these things you're telling us to do on pubs (Servers with no clan players, preferably) and see how well they don't work. Then do it again, and again, and again, until you're tired of trying to get people to do things besides run off and get pointlessly killed by turrets/chambers. Then you will be broken, and my work will be done.
In most pub servers i go into the outcome is usually decided within the first three minutes. On the other hand, i was just playing in TFZ #1 with the a4o clan on my side against some other clannies in ns_caged, and the round went on roughly for two and a half hours. I had to stop and pee three times! It was crazy. It was the most fun i have had in this game for a while now.
Teamwork helps a lot. If the enemy is superior to you by many levels though in NS, not even all the teamwork on the planet can save you. Also if you already didnt know, a microphone goes a LOOONG way towards teamwork.
If you're looking for one of those really long rounds, hunker down in a clan war. Those are the funnest.
EDIT: In retrospect, i think SentrySteve has a bit of a superiority complex and an urge to tear down those who don't like his opinions.
LM
This is a round-based game simulating small battles not a team-based MMOG that's supposed to last the whole war.
In ns_nothing is it totally possible to win from a sucessful cargobay relocation. Just get every alien to constantly harrass their rts. Then when the second hive goes up (because it will if the marines are always picking their bums in marine start because of your constant harrassment) then get the old fade/lerk/gorge combo goin and sweep through their base, easy as pie(ish).
And jp hmg have been discussed loads.
The game isnt really balanced but its hard when you regularly have uneven teams.
There are newbie marines about who think that aliens are the easier side because they win more often, as a lot of skilled players tend to go alien.
thats why I think the PT games where the best, we where there to try everything and to have fun ...
too bad all the public realy cares about is winning. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the PT games also from what I understand did not use any rushing strats, and I think that is the reason why the game gets usually boring, while the PTs were having fun, which is great, but they needed to test EVERYTHING, thats why this game is so wishy washy when it comes to clanplay and sometimes pubbing.
Just because a strat is not fun does not mean you do not have to test it.
How dare the public is for wanting to win! Shame on them, and shame on all the people who post tactics and strategies to help some players become better.