There is no way to make the tactics foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
As someone said, <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marine 1: Hey Comm, we're in Eclipse but there's no hive here. Comm: WTH?! No hive?! Marine 2: Yeah dude seriously, this place is completely empty but weve got green goo shooting at us from out of nowhere. Comm: @(#*! Stupid green goo from nowhere bug...damn aliens must have recycled the hive and relocated. OK! Head to Comp core. Both Marines: Roger that comm...
remember that scanner sweep decloaks stuff and thus fooks up that tactic... However, if the SCs have a range like the DCs, then in places like Computer Core skulks could sit on the wall with SC on other side in vent and munch stuff... then they just cloak and hide if nething comes <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> CUNNNIIINNNGGGGG
That is great <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well hopefully they weaken the Marine early game if this is going to be a cheap upgrade.
I can see it already. Divide up your Marines, blitz two hives, get your electro-factory going in each one, then just turtle up and tech away to JP's. Anyway, most of you will disagree with me because you probably think the Aliens are overpowered early game.
I don't get why people insist that the hive needs to be able to attack!?! Can't you do the job of defending it yourself? It has already be said that 1.1 will make JP rushs harder to do anyway, so why change the hive? And cloaking? Sheesh!!
As for the electrified tf, if this is an upgrade then depending on cost, you probably won't see this till the later in the game anyway, and all it will really do is prevent lone skulks from killing off the tf in a defended location. From a distance you should still be able to take down the tf as easily as before (or in close with onos).
Electrified TF thing came completly out of left field? Can you imagine the flames if someoen suggested that on the forum? Well, in conjunction with all the other additions let's hope it works for the best
That is probably because the phorums has this pecking order. Some of the old ones establish themselves as support of Flayra, like cardinals of the church, and defend the Truth and Covenant of Flayra at any cost. Our problem is that our Deity sometimes speaketh unto us and make us all look like idiots <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
However, the electrified TF is probably the easiest solution to the whole TF-vulnerable spot in geometry problem. It IS kind of stupid to build a tf and set up 2 turrets only. Since there's always a blind spot that will allow a skulk to munch it to death in 30 seconds. That leads to the turret pharms where you see 10 turrets covering ALL the blind angles possible and really makes it impossible to assault as 1-hive alien. Simple solution really, and one that I can agree with. Alien offense chambers do not have these blind angles, and they can live without a turret factory as well. So you can still knock out 10 turrets by lerk spiking and fade bile or acid spamming the tf at a distance, a method marines cant use towards alien walls of lame.
<!--QuoteBegin--Shockwave+Mar 27 2003, 10:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Mar 27 2003, 10:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually, giving it the choice of the two upgrades (and follow this mentality to other structure upgrades) sounds like a great idea.
Make it <i>EITHER</i> an electrified, <i>OR</i> an advanced. Makes the comm choose, and means it can't be foolproof. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think that will be unfair if Aliens are allowed all 3 upgrades at one hive stage. If it remains the same as it is now, though, that sounds like a reasonable idea.
I agree with Chicken, you all are talking as if it's impossible to actually defend the hive yourselves. If you allow a lone marine to sit on your hive and knife it up, then that's your problem.
I think hives should grow legs and run around <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Plant hive in marines base and sp00n em over <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'll be happy as long as sensory chambers will make the hive completely invisible. That way JP will have a hard time landing directly on top of it and blasting away as well as hiding OC chambers planted on top of the hive. Since we can eat the comm chair without being electrified however I think it's alright if the hive doesn't "attack". However I would like to see the OC chambers give damage if touched. I mean, just look at all the damn pokey thingies on it!
If you want to make TFs harder to remove, build two of them. Costs probably as much as making one of them shoot sparks. Now it'll be two TFs covering each other, both electrified. If done correctly, it's well-nigh impossible to remove a base that has two TFs covering each other using just skulks....
Ah well. I'll try it out, then maybe I'll [edit]*cough* whinge[/edit] some more.
About the "Cloak your hive"-thingie... stupid in my oppinion, because it doesn't help. If the Com scanns the hive, he will see it. If a Marine is there, just fire a single bullet at the location the hive SHUOLD be and see if there's a green splatter <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> So, cloaked hives are kinda useless... and a good player that's has played a map a few time should easily be able to JP onto that hive. Cloaked OCs will also be kind of "one-time-supprise" for uncautious Marines... once they fire their position is known. I can imagine use the cloaking ability for small "field hospitals" like a few DCs, one MC and a SC, that Aliens cnn fall back to when hurt too much. As said before WOLs will reveal their position as soon as they fire... but at least sieging them will cost the Marines Resources for scanning, because Marines can't spot them (hope the Dev-Team thinks about that *g*). My conclusion: Cloaking buildings can be fun, can be useful, but claoking hives is not helping you in any way.
About the Electrified TF... sounds kinda... dunno... like a gimmik. A structure that hurts you when you attack it to prevent one skulk from tearing down a whole turret farm. I must admit that i don't really like that idea... if a com places a tf but can't efend it properly, he will pay the price... if the marines can't manage to fight back attacking aliens, they will pay the price. But let's think about the tech-tree-thingie and the costs... will the "electrified-TF" and "advance-tf" (siege) be exclusive? Is so, electrified will almost never be used cause it's always good to have the ability to siege nearby structures if needed (u never know).. I would not throw away the ability to siege if neccesary just to keep a TF alive that should be protected by turrets and MARINES anyway. If you can use both electrified-TF AND Siege-upgrade, it could be a nice addition to pretect a turret farm... but as said before: as long as i haven't seen how this works in gameplay or at least have more detailed information I think of it as kind of gimmick.
I've got a question about hitboxes and geometry and the like that may clear this issue up. Does the skulks bite extend beyond the hitbox of the skulk itself? How exactly are collisions and all that determined?
Because maybe the skulk will only be electrocuted if its own hitbox intersects the tf. This would force the skulk to stand off from the tf in order to chew on it without getting zapped. What this would do is prevent the skulk from being able to hide inside the tf or in a tiny corner between the tf and a wall due to their models being allowed to intersect with each other. This way, if 2 turrets were built to cover a tf in a corner, there really wouldn't be anywhere to hide. This would force the skulk to take the turrets down first which isn't really that hard. Yes, you'll likely die, but you should finish off one of the turrets before you go down.
So on one side we have this giant bactieral hell incarnant sitting in this huge chamber spewing out horrible mutated monsters and in geral currupting everything near it BUT, its perfactly safe for Joe marines to have a smoke on top of it while alls its minions run around.....
On the other side the top minds of the day when confronted by the Khara scurge decide to electra ONE of the MANY building that the marines deploy. No new super weapons, no lysol disinfectant gernades, no lasers (or god forgive a flamer), just an electrifeid support building..
<!--QuoteBegin--see-you-in-disney-land+Mar 27 2003, 04:11 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (see-you-in-disney-land @ Mar 27 2003, 04:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't know about you, but that seems funny to me. If the comm is noobish enough to not scan sweep the area, then let his men die and him quit! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ...
Well thanks to all the people who supported the idea of a hive with at least a basic self defense mechanisim. A simple spore cloud or acid splash would make me feel better about being zapped while eating a TF. And I wholeheartedly support the opinion that a hive (which is responsible for spawning all alien lifeforms) already hass all the makings of a defensive (healing) and Offensive (sporecloud/acidrocket) system.
It would not unbalance the game because the range of the sporecloud or acidsplash would only be big enough to encompass the hive + welder range, so a marine who is hovering in front of it unloading on it with an HMG would still be safe.
<!--QuoteBegin--Extra Surly Chicken+Mar 27 2003, 07:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Extra Surly Chicken @ Mar 27 2003, 07:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't get why people insist that the hive needs to be able to attack!?! Can't you do the job of defending it yourself? It has already be said that 1.1 will make JP rushs harder to do anyway, so why change the hive? And cloaking? Sheesh!!
As for the electrified tf, if this is an upgrade then depending on cost, you probably won't see this till the later in the game anyway, and all it will really do is prevent lone skulks from killing off the tf in a defended location. From a distance you should still be able to take down the tf as easily as before (or in close with onos).
<!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, let's see...maybe cuz when a Jetpacker flies into a spot that skulks cannot get to or have a hard time getting to (say on top of the hive in Eclipse or Comp Core) It's **** to just have to sit there and watch your hive die. Sure, parasite him all you want, comm is gonna be spamming 238792832 medpacks anyway. And it's worth it too, don't pass that "OMG medpacks waste their res too" crap. When you spam 20 medpacks (40 res) to take out a hive that will take the other team 5 minutes and 80 res to get back, it is DEFINITELY not a waste of res.
Besides that ITS A HIVE darnit it's supposed to be this advanced Kharaa lifeform and it can't even defend itself from a jetpacking marine even though it can infest an entire human ship somehow.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, let's see...maybe cuz when a Jetpacker flies into a spot that skulks cannot get to or have a hard time getting to (say on top of the hive in Eclipse or Comp Core)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, and a lerk can't fly up and bite these people or spike them? And if your team is using some communication, you will be fore warned of an incoming JP marine and would be able to react accordingly.
The original arguement was about marines getting electrified tfs in 1.1 and some people feeling that the aliens where being left out, and so wanted an attacking hive to prevent JP marines from sitting on their hive. The fact that 1.1 will make JP/HMG marines harder to rush makes the idea of an attacking hive redundant anyway, because you will have more time to prepare for this tactic. Besides in some hives its possible to use something else (like a hanging light) as a perch anyway, so what would be the point? (other than to prevent welder knife use, but then I find a good old HMG more efficent anyway!)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And it's worth it too, don't pass that "OMG medpacks waste their res too" crap.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't put words in my mouth! I did not say that and was not going to say that. If a comm does this to take down a hive, then I totally agree, it would be worth the res, assuming of course that all the skulks are sitting around trying for a parasite kill.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Besides that ITS A HIVE darnit it's supposed to be this advanced Kharaa lifeform and it can't even defend itself from a jetpacking marine even though it can infest an entire human ship somehow. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes it defends itself/infests ships by spitting out aggresive lifeforms with rows of sharp teeth and other useful attributes/abilities!
If you can't defend your hive, you deserve to lose it. The only exception is if you're jetpack rushed(which is the only time an attacking hive would really be helpful), and that'll supposedly be fixed in 1.1.
About the earlier reply to lerks flying up to the hive and munching the git with the HMG...
Did you think about the fact that there are no lerks anywhere near the hive??? And once one dies, then the guy settles back down and keeps on drawing smily faces on the hive with his welder.
In response to the entire sporecloud thing...
Sod that... make it spew umbra-like stuff (not as effective) so as not to make it invincible. Agreed that JP rushes will be harder to do in NS1.1, but the whole 11 min match time is just pants. NS games are meant to be long so that the commander/aliens can play his/her/their strategy out fully without the marines/aliens rushing like mad and being all l337 about it... Mostly all the comm has to do is get 2-3 RP and then get JP and HMG and possibly upgraded guns. Then he sez: "Go THERE. SHOOT STUFF"
<!--QuoteBegin--megatoast+Mar 28 2003, 06:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (megatoast @ Mar 28 2003, 06:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Did you think about the fact that there are no lerks anywhere near the hive??? And once one dies, then the guy settles back down and keeps on drawing smily faces on the hive with his welder. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, true, but then "what if" there <b>IS</b> a lerk in base? And "what if" the HMG marine dies first? You make it sound like there is no point in even TRYING to defend against a JP/HMG rush!
Those who know about JP/HMG rushs have no real excuse for not at least TRYING to defend the hive against it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Did you think about the fact that there are no lerks anywhere near the hive??? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Erm, then isnt that your own fault? You can't expect JP rushes to just "not work" while you do nothing at all to defend against them.
JP rushes and the marine side in general are overly powerful, but they're a long long way off being unstoppable.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes it defends itself/infests ships by spitting out aggresive lifeforms with rows of sharp teeth and other useful attributes/abilities! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Listen to this man, you're the damn defence. You can't expect the game to automatically play itself for you.
Today, I killed at least four jetpackers as a skulk on hera, possibly more.
Although it is possible to defend the hive against a JP/HMG rush, it is insanely difficult, with the JP'er prancing around like a ballerina in a low gravity environment.
Usually, the only time that a good jetpacker soloing the hive will land is right on top of the hive, where it is difficult to get to. Lerks usually get torn apart from HMG fire.
Although I personally like the idea of the hive spewing out a sporecloud when under duress, I do think that we should wait until 1.1 is released to see if the JP/HMG rush is as effective as it is today.
<!--QuoteBegin---Vash-+Mar 28 2003, 08:24 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-Vash- @ Mar 28 2003, 08:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Extra Surly Chicken+Mar 27 2003, 07:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Extra Surly Chicken @ Mar 27 2003, 07:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't get why people insist that the hive needs to be able to attack!?! Can't you do the job of defending it yourself? It has already be said that 1.1 will make JP rushs harder to do anyway, so why change the hive? And cloaking? Sheesh!!
As for the electrified tf, if this is an upgrade then depending on cost, you probably won't see this till the later in the game anyway, and all it will really do is prevent lone skulks from killing off the tf in a defended location. From a distance you should still be able to take down the tf as easily as before (or in close with onos).
<!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, let's see...maybe cuz when a Jetpacker flies into a spot that skulks cannot get to or have a hard time getting to (say on top of the hive in Eclipse or Comp Core) It's **** to just have to sit there and watch your hive die. Sure, parasite him all you want, comm is gonna be spamming 238792832 medpacks anyway. And it's worth it too, don't pass that "OMG medpacks waste their res too" crap. When you spam 20 medpacks (40 res) to take out a hive that will take the other team 5 minutes and 80 res to get back, it is DEFINITELY not a waste of res.
Besides that ITS A HIVE darnit it's supposed to be this advanced Kharaa lifeform and it can't even defend itself from a jetpacking marine even though it can infest an entire human ship somehow. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, the bacteria creates the hive and the hive becomes a tactical brain for the species it spawns, its thinking for all the aliens but itself you see.
I think what Flayra means by cloaking a hive, is that it will appear see-through, like the ones currently not in use. This i feel, would only be usefull until some marine goes up to it, thinking its empty, then some skulk spawns from it and munches him....that would probably give the game away <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Either that, or it means the hive will be cloaked to scans or sieges...that would be more usefull IMO... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
talk about off topic. 1.1 will have a lot of different features for balance. Wait for it and see what it brings instead of pre-emptively criticising it!!! Electrified TFs are there as a "balance" issue (in part of a much wider balancing programme).
As for the person who said that acid conducts electricity, that is such a wildly sweeping statement it's just mindboggling: You don't put water on electrical circuits. Water conducts electricity, but fairly poorly. "Acid" in popular and most wide use refers to acidic AQUEOUS solutions. It is by means of the water (though arguably affected by whatever acidic species are present in it) that electricity is conducted (though relatively poorly we recall). Moreover, "acid" rockets in NS are a creation of an alien species. We have no idea if these are acids as we know them (or don't it seems). Nor, more importantly, do we know if they are aqueous!!
The thing about chemistry is it seems so simple at "school" level. Then you get to university and are told to forget everything you ever learned and they tell you how it really is. Then you go on from there and discover it actually is easy after all, but it took 4 years just to get some pretty awkward concepts (such as quantum mechanics). <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
and yeah cloaking a hive would be fairly pointless if it didn't look like an unbuilt hive. After all you'd walk in and go, "Oh, the hive is invisible, therefore it must be built" instead of "the hive is unbuilt fellas"
yes, yes they have... I believe the responce was something about they're fixing it so you couldnt stack buildings anymore. That, and that would cost a hell of a lot, and while they are doing that, the aliens are securing more hives...
To address the issue of Lerks Defending against the JP/HMG rush in 1.04 :
with the resource model in its current state the JP/HMG rush comes before the second hive is fully built. There are exceptions, but usually it happens before aliens have the abilities granted by the second hive. At the moment, the only way to really counter a Jp/HMG rush is to have only ONE gorge, and keep the rest of the team as close to 33/33 as possible (save when they get carapace) No temp gorging to grab nodes, and no lerks. Lerks are basically useless untill they get umbra, and the drain of 33 res on the gorge is aweful. The most viable way to deal with it in 1.04 is by orginazed skulks hunting the RTs, and pressure on their spawn to keep em from expanding.
If the resource model is fixed in 1.1 and it is in fact viable to have multiple gorges, and somehow mistically the JP/HMG rush becomes less effective then maybe we wont need to have the hive spew out anything, but I think its a good idea.
Electrifies Turret factories?? pfft.. less coslty to put a few mines around them! If that poor skulks get a chance at even a few bites, the TF can come down quickly, no matter what the damage the skulks receives from the electricity.
As for mines.. well.. It's *boom!* and goodbye skulk! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
As someone said, <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marine 1: Hey Comm, we're in Eclipse but there's no hive here.
Comm: WTH?! No hive?!
Marine 2: Yeah dude seriously, this place is completely empty but weve got green goo shooting at us from out of nowhere.
Comm: @(#*! Stupid green goo from nowhere bug...damn aliens must have recycled the hive and relocated. OK! Head to Comp core.
Both Marines: Roger that comm...
*marines get killed by cloaked O chambers*
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
remember that scanner sweep decloaks stuff and thus fooks up that tactic... However, if the SCs have a range like the DCs, then in places like Computer Core skulks could sit on the wall with SC on other side in vent and munch stuff... then they just cloak and hide if nething comes <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> CUNNNIIINNNGGGGG
That is great <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
I can see it already. Divide up your Marines, blitz two hives, get your electro-factory going in each one, then just turtle up and tech away to JP's. Anyway, most of you will disagree with me because you probably think the Aliens are overpowered early game.
As for the electrified tf, if this is an upgrade then depending on cost, you probably won't see this till the later in the game anyway, and all it will really do is prevent lone skulks from killing off the tf in a defended location. From a distance you should still be able to take down the tf as easily as before (or in close with onos).
<!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
However, the electrified TF is probably the easiest solution to the whole TF-vulnerable spot in geometry problem. It IS kind of stupid to build a tf and set up 2 turrets only. Since there's always a blind spot that will allow a skulk to munch it to death in 30 seconds. That leads to the turret pharms where you see 10 turrets covering ALL the blind angles possible and really makes it impossible to assault as 1-hive alien. Simple solution really, and one that I can agree with. Alien offense chambers do not have these blind angles, and they can live without a turret factory as well. So you can still knock out 10 turrets by lerk spiking and fade bile or acid spamming the tf at a distance, a method marines cant use towards alien walls of lame.
Make it <i>EITHER</i> an electrified, <i>OR</i> an advanced. Makes the comm choose, and means it can't be foolproof. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that will be unfair if Aliens are allowed all 3 upgrades at one hive stage. If it remains the same as it is now, though, that sounds like a reasonable idea.
I agree with Chicken, you all are talking as if it's impossible to actually defend the hive yourselves. If you allow a lone marine to sit on your hive and knife it up, then that's your problem.
Plant hive in marines base and sp00n em over <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
If you want to make TFs harder to remove, build two of them. Costs probably as much as making one of them shoot sparks. Now it'll be two TFs covering each other, both electrified. If done correctly, it's well-nigh impossible to remove a base that has two TFs covering each other using just skulks....
Ah well. I'll try it out, then maybe I'll [edit]*cough* whinge[/edit] some more.
About the "Cloak your hive"-thingie... stupid in my oppinion, because it doesn't help.
If the Com scanns the hive, he will see it.
If a Marine is there, just fire a single bullet at the location the hive SHUOLD be and see if there's a green splatter <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
So, cloaked hives are kinda useless... and a good player that's has played a map a few time should easily be able to JP onto that hive.
Cloaked OCs will also be kind of "one-time-supprise" for uncautious Marines... once they fire their position is known.
I can imagine use the cloaking ability for small "field hospitals" like a few DCs, one MC and a SC, that Aliens cnn fall back to when hurt too much.
As said before WOLs will reveal their position as soon as they fire... but at least sieging them will cost the Marines Resources for scanning, because Marines can't spot them (hope the Dev-Team thinks about that *g*).
My conclusion: Cloaking buildings can be fun, can be useful, but claoking hives is not helping you in any way.
About the Electrified TF... sounds kinda... dunno... like a gimmik.
A structure that hurts you when you attack it to prevent one skulk from tearing down a whole turret farm.
I must admit that i don't really like that idea... if a com places a tf but can't efend it properly, he will pay the price... if the marines can't manage to fight back attacking aliens, they will pay the price.
But let's think about the tech-tree-thingie and the costs... will the "electrified-TF" and "advance-tf" (siege) be exclusive? Is so, electrified will almost never be used cause it's always good to have the ability to siege nearby structures if needed (u never know).. I would not throw away the ability to siege if neccesary just to keep a TF alive that should be protected by turrets and MARINES anyway.
If you can use both electrified-TF AND Siege-upgrade, it could be a nice addition to pretect a turret farm... but as said before: as long as i haven't seen how this works in gameplay or at least have more detailed information I think of it as kind of gimmick.
-just my 2 cents-
Hypergrip / Tofu-Ninja
Because maybe the skulk will only be electrocuted if its own hitbox intersects the tf. This would force the skulk to stand off from the tf in order to chew on it without getting zapped. What this would do is prevent the skulk from being able to hide inside the tf or in a tiny corner between the tf and a wall due to their models being allowed to intersect with each other. This way, if 2 turrets were built to cover a tf in a corner, there really wouldn't be anywhere to hide. This would force the skulk to take the turrets down first which isn't really that hard. Yes, you'll likely die, but you should finish off one of the turrets before you go down.
So on one side we have this giant bactieral hell incarnant sitting in this huge chamber spewing out horrible mutated monsters and in geral currupting everything near it BUT, its perfactly safe for Joe marines to have a smoke on top of it while alls its minions run around.....
On the other side the top minds of the day when confronted by the Khara scurge decide to electra ONE of the MANY building that the marines deploy. No new super weapons, no lysol disinfectant gernades, no lasers (or god forgive a flamer), just an electrifeid support building..
hmmm, maby Flayra IS smoking something......
If the comm is noobish enough to not scan sweep the area, then let his men die and him quit! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
...
"now where did i leave that hive? im sure it was just here a minute ago..."
It would not unbalance the game because the range of the sporecloud or acidsplash would only be big enough to encompass the hive + welder range, so a marine who is hovering in front of it unloading on it with an HMG would still be safe.
As for the electrified tf, if this is an upgrade then depending on cost, you probably won't see this till the later in the game anyway, and all it will really do is prevent lone skulks from killing off the tf in a defended location. From a distance you should still be able to take down the tf as easily as before (or in close with onos).
<!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, let's see...maybe cuz when a Jetpacker flies into a spot that skulks cannot get to or have a hard time getting to (say on top of the hive in Eclipse or Comp Core) It's **** to just have to sit there and watch your hive die. Sure, parasite him all you want, comm is gonna be spamming 238792832 medpacks anyway. And it's worth it too, don't pass that "OMG medpacks waste their res too" crap. When you spam 20 medpacks (40 res) to take out a hive that will take the other team 5 minutes and 80 res to get back, it is DEFINITELY not a waste of res.
Besides that ITS A HIVE darnit it's supposed to be this advanced Kharaa lifeform and it can't even defend itself from a jetpacking marine even though it can infest an entire human ship somehow.
Oh, and a lerk can't fly up and bite these people or spike them? And if your team is using some communication, you will be fore warned of an incoming JP marine and would be able to react accordingly.
The original arguement was about marines getting electrified tfs in 1.1 and some people feeling that the aliens where being left out, and so wanted an attacking hive to prevent JP marines from sitting on their hive. The fact that 1.1 will make JP/HMG marines harder to rush makes the idea of an attacking hive redundant anyway, because you will have more time to prepare for this tactic. Besides in some hives its possible to use something else (like a hanging light) as a perch anyway, so what would be the point? (other than to prevent welder knife use, but then I find a good old HMG more efficent anyway!)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And it's worth it too, don't pass that "OMG medpacks waste their res too" crap.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't put words in my mouth! I did not say that and was not going to say that. If a comm does this to take down a hive, then I totally agree, it would be worth the res, assuming of course that all the skulks are sitting around trying for a parasite kill.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Besides that ITS A HIVE darnit it's supposed to be this advanced Kharaa lifeform and it can't even defend itself from a jetpacking marine even though it can infest an entire human ship somehow. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes it defends itself/infests ships by spitting out aggresive lifeforms with rows of sharp teeth and other useful attributes/abilities!
Did you think about the fact that there are no lerks anywhere near the hive??? And once one dies, then the guy settles back down and keeps on drawing smily faces on the hive with his welder.
In response to the entire sporecloud thing...
Sod that... make it spew umbra-like stuff (not as effective) so as not to make it invincible. Agreed that JP rushes will be harder to do in NS1.1, but the whole 11 min match time is just pants. NS games are meant to be long so that the commander/aliens can play his/her/their strategy out fully without the marines/aliens rushing like mad and being all l337 about it... Mostly all the comm has to do is get 2-3 RP and then get JP and HMG and possibly upgraded guns. Then he sez: "Go THERE. SHOOT STUFF"
Yes, true, but then "what if" there <b>IS</b> a lerk in base? And "what if" the HMG marine dies first? You make it sound like there is no point in even TRYING to defend against a JP/HMG rush!
Those who know about JP/HMG rushs have no real excuse for not at least TRYING to defend the hive against it.
Did you think about the fact that there are no lerks anywhere near the hive???
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Erm, then isnt that your own fault? You can't expect JP rushes to just "not work" while you do nothing at all to defend against them.
JP rushes and the marine side in general are overly powerful, but they're a long long way off being unstoppable.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Yes it defends itself/infests ships by spitting out aggresive lifeforms with rows of sharp teeth and other useful attributes/abilities!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Listen to this man, you're the damn defence. You can't expect the game to automatically play itself for you.
Although it is possible to defend the hive against a JP/HMG rush, it is insanely difficult, with the JP'er prancing around like a ballerina in a low gravity environment.
Usually, the only time that a good jetpacker soloing the hive will land is right on top of the hive, where it is difficult to get to. Lerks usually get torn apart from HMG fire.
Although I personally like the idea of the hive spewing out a sporecloud when under duress, I do think that we should wait until 1.1 is released to see if the JP/HMG rush is as effective as it is today.
As for the electrified tf, if this is an upgrade then depending on cost, you probably won't see this till the later in the game anyway, and all it will really do is prevent lone skulks from killing off the tf in a defended location. From a distance you should still be able to take down the tf as easily as before (or in close with onos).
<!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, let's see...maybe cuz when a Jetpacker flies into a spot that skulks cannot get to or have a hard time getting to (say on top of the hive in Eclipse or Comp Core) It's **** to just have to sit there and watch your hive die. Sure, parasite him all you want, comm is gonna be spamming 238792832 medpacks anyway. And it's worth it too, don't pass that "OMG medpacks waste their res too" crap. When you spam 20 medpacks (40 res) to take out a hive that will take the other team 5 minutes and 80 res to get back, it is DEFINITELY not a waste of res.
Besides that ITS A HIVE darnit it's supposed to be this advanced Kharaa lifeform and it can't even defend itself from a jetpacking marine even though it can infest an entire human ship somehow. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, the bacteria creates the hive and the hive becomes a tactical brain for the species it spawns, its thinking for all the aliens but itself you see.
Either that, or it means the hive will be cloaked to scans or sieges...that would be more usefull IMO... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Electrified TFs are there as a "balance" issue (in part of a much wider balancing programme).
As for the person who said that acid conducts electricity, that is such a wildly sweeping statement it's just mindboggling:
You don't put water on electrical circuits.
Water conducts electricity, but fairly poorly.
"Acid" in popular and most wide use refers to acidic AQUEOUS solutions. It is by means of the water (though arguably affected by whatever acidic species are present in it) that electricity is conducted (though relatively poorly we recall).
Moreover, "acid" rockets in NS are a creation of an alien species. We have no idea if these are acids as we know them (or don't it seems). Nor, more importantly, do we know if they are aqueous!!
The thing about chemistry is it seems so simple at "school" level. Then you get to university and are told to forget everything you ever learned and they tell you how it really is. Then you go on from there and discover it actually is easy after all, but it took 4 years just to get some pretty awkward concepts (such as quantum mechanics). <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
and yeah cloaking a hive would be fairly pointless if it didn't look like an unbuilt hive. After all you'd walk in and go, "Oh, the hive is invisible, therefore it must be built" instead of "the hive is unbuilt fellas"
Roo
Did anybody think of the posiblility of useing electified turret factorys as electric walls?
with the resource model in its current state the JP/HMG rush comes before the second hive is fully built. There are exceptions, but usually it happens before aliens have the abilities granted by the second hive. At the moment, the only way to really counter a Jp/HMG rush is to have only ONE gorge, and keep the rest of the team as close to 33/33 as possible (save when they get carapace) No temp gorging to grab nodes, and no lerks. Lerks are basically useless untill they get umbra, and the drain of 33 res on the gorge is aweful. The most viable way to deal with it in 1.04 is by orginazed skulks hunting the RTs, and pressure on their spawn to keep em from expanding.
If the resource model is fixed in 1.1 and it is in fact viable to have multiple gorges, and somehow mistically the JP/HMG rush becomes less effective then maybe we wont need to have the hive spew out anything, but I think its a good idea.
pfft.. less coslty to put a few mines around them!
If that poor skulks get a chance at even a few bites, the TF can come down quickly, no matter what the damage the skulks receives from the electricity.
As for mines.. well.. It's *boom!* and goodbye skulk! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->