Chamber Changes...

Savant · March 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">Enough to change your build order?</div> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>- Sensory chambers are now automatically cloaked, and they cloak other alien structures in range (including hives, resource towers, offensive chambers, etc.)
- Movement chambers now give aliens energy, like defensive chambers give health. Unsure if teleport ability will stay.
- Silence upgrade now silences movement and attacks (it's incredibly eerie) </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
While I MAY consider building movement first (for the new silence upgrade) I still find myself unimpressed with sensory to the extent that I would consider building it first. Had they made sensory defeat motion tracking if you chose cloaking then I would STILL be hesitant to choose it first. I think the only way I would consider choosing sensory first would be if cloaking kept you cloaked at ALL times unless you attacked.

Is the defense chamber just too damn good as a first choice?

Regards,

Savant

Cowswin · March 2003

Hmmm, well a bunch of invis walls is pretty good in my opinion. It'll slow marine movement down to a crawl and they won't be so eager to rush around every corner they meet. Cloaked skulks waiting for lev 1 marines to pop out of the safety of their base is interesting my opinion too. I do believe cloaking should do something about motion tracking, seeing as movement does something already (see silence upgrades). Invis ALL the time is WAY too powerful. Imagine a hoard of 6 skulks wandering around without even going clicky-clicky (silence) and then you just DIE because they all grouped up and ate you at once. Sounds cool, but too powerfull <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

MAYBE, just MAYBE I could see sensory chambers giving skulks invis while they were close by. Like within the range that they would extend to cloak buildings. Attacking makes you appear type o' thing. But that's still pretty damn good. Prob too strong unless marines got some major upgrades to help balance it out.

Anavrin · March 2003

Even with this upgrade, sensory chambers will never ever be a first hive building when I gorge. Nor will it be a second hive building. I actually like the idea of giving skulks invisibility until attack. If that was implemented, I'd consider to make it the first hive building. But frankly, it's not terribly realistic to build sensories in every corner of every room in a map.

Carapace is just too useful. It simply cannot be substituted by something that effectively takes away a skulk's ability to survive up to 19 bullets (lvl 0 gun vs lvl 3 cara). Even if they don't see you, an uncarapaced skulk is all too easy to kill.

Private_Coleman · March 2003

the marines will need balancing definately after this... i would build movement first probably...

Umbraed_Monkey · March 2003

I believe i was the first to propose these changes (well, the movement chamber one, and someone added the sensory one in my thread). Having said that, I can tell you the logic behind this change. Basically, defence chamber is prefered right now because it is the only structure that actively helps aliens during battle. Movement and sensory are basically useless except certain specific situations. These changes allow all chambers to be helpful, nearly all the time.

about the sensory...imagine putting it next to the hive right away...

Renegade · March 2003

I think it would be interesting if the sensory chambers shot webs out from their little tenticles when first spawned and would alert the entire marine team if tripped or destroyed. They would eventually regenerate and shoot out new webs.

Kaniran · March 2003

My current build order is usually movement -> defence -> sensory, and I don't see this changing for 1.1. Changes to the chambers are very interesting, but celerity on a gorge is quite usefull, as are celerity on any skulk who actually runs on walls to dodge bullets. I find that defence first is not necessary as long as you know your team can hold it together. Carapace is only necesary when almost every skulk you have considers themself a tank and not a hit & run machine. Most skulks simply rush in instead of setting up ambushes, and for the average skulk defence is best. For the more experianced skulk, silence can be golden, celerity can be more of a lifesaver than cara, and cloaking can kill more marines than cara can any day.

coil · March 2003

(A) Sensory upgrades are also being tweaked to make them more enticing.

(B) <b>This is conjecture only:</b> I believe we may experiment not only with having all classes available at one hive, but also having all upgrade structures available at one hive. It's only a possibility, and we may not try it at all. However, keep in mind that there's a lot about 1.1 that we still don't know.

Umbraed_Monkey · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NoImagination @ Mar 26 2003, 04:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> If you don't get carpace, all the energy and cloaking in the world won't help. You can't use it if you're dead.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
ok...i can give a statement equally lacking in thought:

if you kill em a) before they know youre there or b) with more firepower, all the carapace in the world wont matter because by then...you = WEINAH!! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

FireStorm · March 2003

Aliens can win with sensory first right now... Imagine what it will be in 1.1.
I'll certainly try SC first more often.

killswitch · March 2003

I don't know about the sensory, or how effective it will be:<ul>
<li>Sensories cloak buildings, but it shouldn't matter cus you can hear the OCs attacking and run the other way.
<li>Sensory won't cloak you when you move or attack, I'd take carapace over that.
</ul>

I think skulks are too vulnerable in the beginning and too strong after 3 DCs, maybe find some thing in between?

Savant · March 2003

Aliens don't win with sensory now if the marines have a shred of skill. It may have been possible a couple months ago, but try that now and you're likely to get reamed.

If sensory was to defeat motion tracking, THEN I might agree with you. However, once marines get motion tracking it is a fairly easy matter to track alien movements, and thus eliminate any advantage cloaking might give you. (not to mention the other skills are not really useful)

I'm interested to see how silence plays out though. That's probably the only one I would try out first since it would be very interesting to see how a silenced skulk fairs against marines.

Regards,

Savant

boberto · March 2003

id still like to see a chambers upgrade give increased damaged. im not sure which chamber itd fit in with though.

killswitch · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 27 2003, 12:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> If sensory was to defeat motion tracking, THEN I might agree with you.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Do you mean it'll remove the MT around surround skulks over a certain area?

And do sensories cloak aliens? Moving aliens? Attacking aliens?

Wheeee · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (killswitch1968 @ Mar 26 2003, 05:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I don't know about the sensory, or how effective it will be:<ul>
<li>Sensories cloak buildings, but it shouldn't matter cus you can hear the OCs attacking and run the other way.
<li>Sensory won't cloak you when you move or attack, I'd take carapace over that.
</ul>

I think skulks are too vulnerable in the beginning and too strong after 3 DCs, maybe find some thing in between?  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
That'd be even more reason to use sensory - WoL's are about area denial...if you run away from an area with a cloaked WoL, then you're basically <b>letting the aliens have that area for free</b>

Savant · March 2003

Well a cloaked wall of lame wouldn't be too much of a bother to me as a marine. With no D chamber you just need to pick away at them. You'd need a good pile of chambers to be a deterrant. If you had 3 chambers, cloaked or not, they would be easy to kill.

Regards,

Savant

Keyser · March 2003

Going back to a few previous posts, uncarapeced skulks are target practice. When my team builds sensories generally a n00b gorge, I realize the game is probably lost and I just try to have as much fun as possible. That doesn't mean I give up, but I don't get my hopes up because its insanely difficult to beat a semi-upgraded marine with cloak.

J2pc · March 2003

why does everybody think sens stinks?

U can move cloaked with a skulk + sens + 2 hive ability's, takes some practice, but it's real fun

dunno if it's an exploit or not, so i won't say it here (don't want all kinds of skulk moving around cloaked, do we?)

I've pwnd marines with cloak, u just gotta adapt from your fixed cara-minds

u don't need cara, just get a couple of cloaked skulks in the corridor (on walls, floor, ceiling) wait for couple of rines, and ambush. Just a matter of tactics.

but, then u can say u don't need cloak, u just get cara and run at them, or get celerity and floor-wall-ceiling-wall-floor dodge the bullets and charge them.

Goes for everything, thing is, u can't say that cara > cloak, it's just how u use those tools (if u use a + screwdriver with an - screw, it won't work, trust me)

So instead of arguing about what's best now, and what's best in v1.1 (wich is stil beeing developed), just go out and try different tactics.

b.t.w, I'll take cloak + celerity/silence over cara + adren anytime

Wheeee · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 26 2003, 05:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Well a cloaked wall of lame wouldn't be too much of a bother to me as a marine. With no D chamber you just need to pick away at them. You'd need a good pile of chambers to be a deterrant. If you had 3 chambers, cloaked or not, they would be easy to kill.

Regards,

Savant </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
You are assuming that the benefits of having sensories first is limited to 'hiding' walls. But that is in fact not true. The early game advantage of marines lies in the fact that they can basically pressure aliens - who have a hell of a time defending their early assets from coordinated marine LMG rushes - what happens now if you find an out-of-the-way resource nozzle and cap it...then cloak it? Basically you will have a RT that needs *much less* defense than it did before. The effects cascade from one simple modification - losing a res tower is devastating early game, and having the possibility of a "secure" RT will affect the gameplay greatly. Given this kind of advantage, I think that sensories will see more use - forcing comms to scan sweep ahead of fire squads, forcing him to expend resources and attention that he would have otherwise been able to use to tech or cap more res. This is just one example of why sensories could become a game-winner. Feel free to think from other points of view, not just the standard 'OMG NUB DONT BUILD SENS FIRST OMG!!11' stance. I believe Grendel told all of us to try new tactics before 1.1 hits - how about trying a new line of thinking?

As for your comment on not having DC's, I'm just speculating but there is still the chance that Flay will make all chambers available(not mutually exclusive) at hive 1.

You assert that it would be 'easy pickings' for a marine to down a WoL..but that's what the WoL is for - to slow you down, prevent access to an area. Given a good WoL placement this kind of tactic is much harder in any case.

Anyway, having said all that, voicing your concerns about balance is fine but I'm sure you realize that the playtest team is not a group of nubcaeks out to ruin your day. It's not quite as simple as you think Savant, no matter how much you think you do. I don't pretend to know every outcome - only extensive playtesting and aggressive searching for 'exploits' will tell what effects the new upgrades will have.

Cyborgguineapig · March 2003

I always thought that level3 silence would be a better substitute to remove motion tracking.

MasterEvilAce · March 2003

I personally think that cloak should stop motion tracking, and i WISH that shift would actually SLOW YOU DOWN, so you could "WALK" as an alien... Perhaps if you could do that, then cloaking would not un-cloak you until you started to 'run' or walk 'normally' again. (i read that a patch was supposed to do that, but it doesn't seem to :/)

having silence to stop marines from hearing you attack makes it VERY WELL worth wild

Silence + Cloak + Redemption or carapace would completely OWN to have.

Scent of fear and adv. hivesight.. those two really need some big changes.

Savant · March 2003

Wheee wrote:
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> what happens now if you find an out-of-the-way resource nozzle and cap it...then cloak it? Basically you will have a RT that needs *much less* defense than it did before. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>Meh.

As a marine with the new build, I simply walk up to the res node. If it exists I can't walk through it. Big deal. I still knife it to death the same way I can now. The sensory chamber doesn't heal it like a D chamber does. If a D chamber was there I would have to take out the D chamber so the res node wouldn't heal it as I knifed it. There is also the telltake 'smoke' that comes up from open res nodes.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>As for your comment on not having DC's, I'm just speculating but there is still the chance that Flay will make all chambers available(not mutually exclusive) at hive 1. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>Actually this post is entirely conjecture, and I believe that most people read it at that. I'm fully away that any changes will need playtesting, and I mentioned this in another thread.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I'm sure you realize that the playtest team is not a group of nubcaeks out to ruin your day.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>Yes I'm quite aware of that thanks.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>only extensive playtesting and aggressive searching for 'exploits' will tell what effects the new upgrades will have. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
True, and only time will tell. Like I said, this is all conjecture, and I don't see anything wrong with speculating so long as no one gets 'hung up' on any particular aspect of the discussion. Frankly, debating aspects of the game is one of the few things that keeps me interested between patches.

Regards,

Savant

hoju2 · March 2003

I'd like to point out every one who doesn't think the SC will move up in their build order, is that Commanders wont be able to hear Hives in 1.1 and if a Gorge puts a SC near the Hive, Marines won't know which hive the aliens really have until they can scan it.

Also the smoke always comes out of the RN's whether theres a RT there or not.

MasterEvilAce · March 2003

Hmm to push sensories even more into favor...

They should hide all buildings around it, even WHEN it's scanned.
Scanning should still show the sensories around that area, but perhaps the other buildings should still be cloaked?

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

also, sometimes nodes won't have smoke after an RT has been destroyed... usually happends on marine base on ECLIPSE.. but it seems random, a bit

Ulatoh · March 2003

one thing to say

fade in hive /w scent of fear standing in range of a sc= motion tracking and invisible,

Anavrin · March 2003

I find it ridiculous that you guys claim to build movement/sensories before defense (in 1.04). By doing so, you claim that ambushing marines becomes the uber tactic.

Let me point out two things.

1) A skulk without carapace can only stand 9 LMG bullets, and much less to pistol rounds.
2) You've no offensive abilities; only a defensive wait-in-position ambush ability.

I somehow think that no matter how good of an ambusher your team is, there will be one time where the marine team will slip by. It's not even that hard... have the pointman go well ahead, and have him clear rooms. Frankly, if uncarapaced skulk mess up an ambush, they become vapourized with little effort. Secondly, a lvl 1 armour marine can easily twitch aim upon the first "chomp" noise and have time to jump out of the way and effortlessly shoot down skulks. 9 LMG rounds take less than a second.

And say 2 marines slip by and hold a hive. No matter how much silence/cloaking/celerity you have, you're not going to be able to take down a pair of entrenched marines unless they're terribly lagged, cannot aim for beans, or bad at finding a defensible location (ie: not below a vent for starters).

However, since I've yet to see you play, I'd welcome seeing a 1-hive movement/sensory chamber game. There'd have to be some magic involved if no carapace (with no remote healing station) can somehow outkill a half-organized team with half-decent aim. It's rather ludicrous and very difficult to believe.

Catpoker · March 2003

i think that having a Sensory upgrade defeat MT whould be WONDERFUL in terms of strats:

reasons:

the marine comm has to think.....

do i put 45 res into MT which, if the aliens build SC, could be almost worthless....., OR do the aliens have carapace? i should go with weapon upgrade? OR do the aliens have an ability to increase their damage? (i am just speculating) should i go with armor upgrades?

do the aliens have (X) chamber? what things counter those upgrades best?

sort of a Rock Paper Scissors deal, which is what the most BASIC RTS has.

EDIT: (this is my personal view) please dont make clocking or silence upgrade defeat MT, then those upgrade become to powerful. make players think of what they want to counter or have an advantage in before they upgrade instead of everyone getting one upgrade becuase it has all the advantages

Soral · March 2003

I wonder what the effective range of the movement chambers will be. A celerity skulk jumping from MC to MC will be a rocket!

killswitch · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (killswitch1968 @ Mar 27 2003, 12:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Do you mean it'll remove the MT around surround skulks over a certain area?

And do sensories cloak aliens? Moving aliens? Attacking aliens?  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I reiterate, what do you all mean by sensory negating MT??

Shockeh · March 2003

Sensory could be used to build yourself a 'stealth hive'

Don't build an OC's, plenty of SC's tucked in a corner (so no marines blunder into them) in range of the hive, some DC's under it, then build the hive. Voila, a hive going up, and the marines can't even see it doing it.

<img src='http://watmm.com/forum/html/emoticons/rdjgrin.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

Yeah, Sensory would be even more frightening if they affect the aliens within range too. Imagine planting a few SC's outside marine spawn..... just outside Obs range. W00t. You saying THAT wouldn't be better than cara? You can't kill what you never get to see.

Frogg2 · March 2003

Hopefully all lvl 0 carapace aliens will be a little stonger and carapace not as effective, then yes.

Chamber Changes...

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