Fear Of 1.1?

Propagandhi · March 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">=/</div> Anyone else go weak in the knees when you think about all the changes/additions 1.1 is going to bring?
I mean, it's pretty much gonna be a whole new game.

While change can be good, too much change in one serving(1.04->1.1) is BAD.

I also fear that with the release of 1.1, more people are gonna hear of NS.
Which can be a bad thing(and probably will be).
This is such a great mod... and a great community for the most part.
I'd like the community to stay as it is.
Honestly, I think it's damn near perfect...
It's gonna suck if the CS community spills over into NS... and that's what I fear the most.

Hopefully I'm wrong about most of this.
(please god)

Seraphic8X · March 2003

Wow, you couldn't be more wrong. The community right now is way too small, so there's barely any competition left in the clan scene.

1.1 needs tp address serious balance issues and it is needed soon.

You already have lamers in this community, so what difference does it make if CS players come over?

eXogen · March 2003

Im really looking foward to 1.1 and seeing a bunch of new people in the community, i think its too small right now

Roger_Dodger · March 2003

Personally i'd like the change implemented gradually, as in a change per month or something, what happens if the face of ns changes completely and ends up a flop from it. I reckon be safe and introduce it slowly. If it is slower then changes can be made easier on specific points rather than finding a problem that affects such a general area.

I wouldnt say no to the whole lot right now but i just reckon too much change can end up being too much to handle.

Propagandhi · March 2003

Exactly.

Shockeh · March 2003

Rodger - And in doing so, codemn us all to weekly-update-different-version-per-server hell?

Marine0I · March 2003

Look, i can see where you're coming from - those cs ppl r a bunch of lamas. But to suggest that mayb we shoud stop improving the mod for fear of attracting more people is ludicrous. FACT: the larger the community the longer this game is going to last. The longer it lasts the better it gets.

Yes the watch your language from cs will be here if it gets better - we are just going to hafta learn to live with them.

People, you just hafta stop complaining and start searching for better servers. Stop complaining about the jp hmg rush and try and find ways around it - in short - quit and don't dodge the swear filter and start playin.

These problems r only big in our minds cause we dwell on them - if we just got out there and played more - concentrated on becoming more skilled players - we would spend less time in here agonising over when those cs **** r coming.

I for 1 would waaayyyy rather this game be dude, what did I say? to death like cs than see it die out in 1 month for lack of interest

Please review the forum guidelines, and alter your posting style to stay in line with them. Slurs against sexual preference are not acceptable forms of communication on this board. -coil

coil · March 2003

People are always afraid of change. Be more open-minded - rather than think "OMG, they're changing NS," try to look at it as "one step closer to Flayra's vision of NS."

I have faith in Flay's ability to create a spectacular game, and faith in the playtesters (*cough* *self-pat* *cough*) to call him on it if his ideas do get a little *too* weird and NS suffers - but I don't think we'll need to.

The other fact is that some of the changes being implemented are simply too extreme, even on their own - the economy is being completely reworked on both sides. Those changes have to be made with the other changes, or else balancing will take even longer. There's no point in balancing the economy right now if Flay plans on implementing Devour eventually... much easier and more logical to implement Devour immediately, and balance the economy with it included. Doing the reverse would be no better; implementing Devour without adjusting the balance to fit it in would result in a useless or overly powerful new ability.

Final word: keep an open mind. Things do change; you can either sit there and cry about it, or pick your *** up and keep up with them. (;

As for CS players... sure, it happens. But they either suck, get frustrated, and leave; or they learn to play on a team and stay.

(PS: it's "roger," not "rodger." <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'> )

Marine0I · March 2003

whoa - where i come from d-d-d-d-d-d-d-deleted! has sorta lost the sexual connotation and has instead come to mean anything that is of poor report - or something bad - but sure i can see how not every1 looks at it that way so i wont use it in the future - sorry

No worries. Don't say anything your mother wouldn't want to hear come out of your mouth, and you'll be fine here.

LoveDaddy · March 2003

Rocket i say...cant wait for 1.1, hopefully its gonna be like a new game, only the same and a bit better....eheheheh

get your lerk on

mousiehamster · March 2003

I don't get it. Why do all NS players have grudges against Cs players? Its just generalisation. So u guys are implying that every friggin' single person who plays CS are snobs? C'mon man, that's u guys are actin' way too immature. only SOME cs players are snoobies, and there's actually a reason for that too. This is due to deviation in skill level. A skilled player will be v.frustrated when he sees his teamate get smoked by another player less skilled than himself. In NS there isn't this kind of thing. The skill level deviation is not high in this game. INtroducing CS players into this game will not make the NS community into a &*$*^ing fest. Rest assured everything will be fine.

coil · March 2003

True, "CS player" is a generalization. A better description would be "l3e+ h4x0r m4st4h k1LL4z" who "d0|\|+ |\|33|) +34mP|_4`/ j00 |\|00|3"

That is, people too concerned with camping, fragging, and their own score (even when they can't see it) to bother realizing that NS is a *teamplay* mod, and all their individual bad-***-ness accounts for approximately ****-all on an NS server.

Marine0I · March 2003

Yeah okay mousie you probably have a point here. I am probably a good example of the standard ns player who is sick to the back teeth of cs and tars them all with the same brush of being a bunch of cheating dogs.

Quite a few ns players obviously feel the same way and as such you get a strong undercurrent of anti-cs feeling. The truth is that when we played cs we met heaps of nice ppl just playin the game, but you dont remember them - you only remember the cheats, and the jerks with cable playin in modem only servers and the like.

At the end of the day - i reckon its just the law of averages. The more ppl you have playin a game, the more losers you will encounter trying to ruin it. CS i just an insanely popular game - hence the amount of jerks.

So please take my earlier comments as referring specifically to the trash of the cs community

Immacolata · March 2003

Don't fear the cs crowds. Have you ever thought that the reason they behave like they do is because everyone else seems to do it? Same rules apply for NS. If we're largely friendly when they come around, most come to their senses quite fast. And I also believe that CS in it self calls out the worst in many people due to it's special way of being constructed.

Shockeh · March 2003

I just won't play it because I never found it to be a very good mod. Simple. <img src='http://watmm.com/forum/html/emoticons/blink.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

The players just match my opinion of the mod. I can see where they're coming from (the anti-CS peeps that is) as the bigger mods tend to attract more:

A) Cheaters
B) Lamers
C) People under the age of 15 (Sorry if you are, but trust me, once you're over it, and then over 18, then over 20 etc etc etc, you always see the 'group' below & realise what a waste of space you often were, but you'll never see it at the time.)

<img src='http://watmm.com/forum/html/emoticons/glare.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

Huntsman · March 2003

I don't think there's any reason to be afraid! 1.1 isn't coming out until it's good and ready. From what I've been hearing, Flayra's been looking hard at what's going on in the current version, and he also has a large amount of player input about it too. The playtesters are going to be testing the bejeezus out of this thing too, so it's not like some random guy is throwing in some new stuff and seeing what happens. I LOVE Natural Selection in it's current incarnation, and if intelligent people are putting their sweat and blood into making such a game EVEN BETTER, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Huntsman

Firewater · March 2003

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Propagandhi @ Mar 26 2003, 08:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Anyone else go weak in the knees when you think about all the changes/additions 1.1 is going to bring?
I mean, it's pretty much gonna be a whole new game.

While change can be good, too much change in one serving(1.04->1.1) is BAD.

I also fear that with the release of 1.1, more people are gonna hear of NS.
Which can be a bad thing(and probably will be).
This is such a great mod... and a great community for the most part.
I'd like the community to stay as it is.
Honestly, I think it's damn near perfect...
It's gonna suck if the CS community spills over into NS... and that's what I fear the most.

Hopefully I'm wrong about most of this.
(please god)  </td></tr></table> 
Whats wrong with the CS community, I played CS.

Savant · March 2003

I'd have to agree with Coil. I too look at the next release at a version of NS that is closers to Flayra's vision of it. Sure some people may like it now, and some people may not like it now. It'd be nice to get it so that nearly ALL those people like it... don't cha think?

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the NS makeover. Whatever it brings. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Regards,

Savant

Roobubba · March 2003

for once I agree wholeheartedly with you Savant.

Bring on 1.1

Nemesis_Zero · March 2003

I can see 1.04 and 1.1 coexisting for a while after the release until everyone got used to the new gameplay, but generally, keep in mind that it's not as if a completely new devteam took over and is now going to release a half-baked sequel to the game. Flayra is just simply going to work on his game, and I'm of the opinion that that's no bad thing.

CheeseSticksYo · March 2003

I know it's fashionable to bash on CS and to "hope" the CS'ers never cross over but I am willing to bet cash money that the majority of NS players are former CS'ers. Myself included.

I played CS from beta 3 to version 1.5. So I've seen a mod be slowly changed to fit the lowest common denominator. But to automatically assume every person who once played CS is an idiot is ignorant.

Having also played NS since day one of it's public release I can say right now that the elitism present in NS is far and away greater than when CS was in beta 3.

Think about that. NS is less than one year old (again as a public mod) and it has already reached the level of elitism on it's public servers that took until about beta 5 (when the mass cheating began) for CS to reach. Just for reference CS beta 5 was about 1.5 years after after CS's initial release.

It's gotten the point where I mute everyone in a server now because it's garunteed in every single game there is some jerk off yelling at some newbie for doing something "wrong" or yelling at their whole team in general for being "nubcakes".

I was in a game the other day where no one went gorge for like 3-4 minutes finally some newbie went gorge. He didn't know exactly what he was doing so maybe his dc placement was a little late, and maybe his oc placement was less than efficient but he stepped up to the plate and went gorge and at least gave his team chance to win. Since none of the almighty elite players felt it worth their time to go gorge. So what does this guy get for going gorge? Some guy yelling at him over voicecomm "omg your causing us to lose."

Finally I could take it no more and I told the guy to shut up that we were going to lose anyway since no one went gorge and if he was so worried about having a newb gorge he should have gone at the beggining instead of asking "who's gorg" 5 times. If you smelt it you dealt it kids.

Now why would this guy ever want to play NS again? His team was going to lose, the fact that he went gorge and did not have a complete understanding of his role actually increased his teams chance of winning, although not by much. But he gets flamed to a crisp for even trying. I have friends that refuse to play NS because the instant they do something "wrong" they get torched by the "community".

Granted, there are some great members in the NS community, and it's quite possible that there are more recognizable names in NS. Especially considering it's size. EC is an excelent example of a group of people who are willing to help a new player out. But for every one of them, it has been my experience, that there is 2 people just waiting to jump down your throat when you throw a sensory chamber down.

As a percentage of the total players CS has no more idiots and self righteous morons than this mod.

Stop equating human stupidity with CS and start equating it with humans.

Jaml · March 2003

Bring on 1.1! 1.04 has no chance to keep the mod alive since there are too many problems with it. The difference between clan and pubblic games kill the mod. In clans its too easy to win as marines while on average pubs aliens have the upper hand except on big servers where the resource model totally overpowers the marines. As you see we need huge changes to the game to make it equally balanced on clan/public and big/small servers.

So fear not. It only can get better as it is now.

PS: Im already looking forward to <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> some lvl 1 <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

RyoOhki · March 2003

It is topical to bag out on the CS community mainly because, thanks to someone getting greedy, that mod spilled out into the general community, bringing in a host of new players (and a lot of younger ones who lacked maturity). Hence CS is now regarded by many as dead (2 years ago everyone I knew played it, now 1 guy does) or just not worth playing.
This isn't to say that good people can't come out of CS into NS: the problem more lies in the fact that NS has such differant gameplay and a high initial learning curve. Your average CS player likely thinks he can bring his ""elite" skillz" into NS and bag a few alien trophies for his wall. The reality is, as we all know, that without teamwork (ignoring the jetpack hmg rush of course <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'> ) either side generally will lose. Now another tendancy of CS players is "winning". I've found that once you calmly explain that the best way to win is to work as a team they tend to settle down or just leave. If they leave, fine, no skin off our backs. But once they settle down and realise that if they work as a team they can get all that lovely juicy high level stuff they can make excellent teammates.
But of course there's a catch. Yet another tendancy of CS players is a complete disregard for other teammates and an imaturity streak a mile wide (people of all ages are guilty of this). If you can tame this they can fit in well, but too often these people are lost causes. The advantage of the steep learning curve now comes in: such players try to play Counter-Selection, find that they keep on losing, and soon quit from boredom.
So don't worry too much about any floods of CS players. Treat them like any new player: calmly explain to them how the game works, hope they listen, and mould them into good players. Of course they might blatently ignore you, but in that case they'll go soon anyway <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Warning: the above information does not take into account llamas

Ego · March 2003

coil, i used to think you were a OMG, what did you say! now i know it for certain that your a great fellah

classic editing skills.

hmm, id proably pwn joo in a 1v1 game both alien and marines.. thats cuz your a big ...dude..

strongbad is funny though, props..

oh, and as for the post.

i know you all fear the 1.1 because of what the update for CS did to it.

have faith in flay, it still isnt our game <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>, i think i read somewhere that he wanted the onos to be a bigger part of the game, and heavy armor too!,... i havent used either in proably a week and if so, it was a total cmon man.. one way or the other.

personally, i dont know flay, and not sure if i would like him or not, but that doesnt matter. He is a good coder, and he does it for free weeeeeee.

Ns still isnt ours <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>, we downloadid it for free, ...

Ego

[FACT] - Coil + Comprox = Unfair opression!

Roobubba · March 2003

Most of the NS players I know were CS players before.
My main problem is that this is now off topic, so to bring it back on topic, no, 1.1 will be storming and very exciting times for the mod.

BlueTorpeedo · March 2003

Im afraid that people are going to do what they did on the first release...

The Game will be so different from what they will have trouble playing it, like when people tried comm'ing at first the sucked because they didnt know the tech tree, how to pace your advance, what to expect, ect. The aliens originally won most of the time (when i played) because it was more independant and similar to what they had played before in other games (sort of). Later, once players got used to the system, the 'rines caught up (and to some supereceded) the aleins. What I afraid of simply is that people will try it out and form a decision to early to be very accurate. They will start complaining about such and such without really get the expreince behind their decision. I think that 1.1 may acctually be easier for Noobs than some veterins because they wont be dependant on the OLD tried and true methods. The JP rush may be made obsolete in 1.1, but for a month therafter you know comms are going to keep trying it. And they will complain about how the 'rines now suck on the forums without trying anything different.

I guess this is not a very coherent argument, but i think you understand. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>

I also dont really like the typical CS player either. I never play CS unless I'm at a LAN party and thats the game running. It just isn't good after I tried Firearms. Part of it for me is the game, and the other half is the CS community. Most of the people I know who play CS only play LAN games because, dispite being BIG CS fans, they cant stand the CS community themselves. LAN games let them pick who they play with so they can avoid Llamas. CS has far too many Llamas , i should not have to tell you all that. With the obvious future inflow of CS players I try NOT to worry. Many of the CS players are probably leaving CS for the same reasones some you guys hate it. They probably dont like the community. THATS WHY I LEFT <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> ! I dont meen to flame the CS people, but CS became boring and frustration with all the leet speak, whining and B.S. I dont want this to turn into a rant , so ill stop myself.

I also think that players are forming expectations from predictions, that may not come true. Only expect 1.1 to be awsome, nothing more. Who know what crazy ideas they may have in store for us to try out. Just have fun.

anyhoo, in summery, Dont woryy about 1.1, It will be fine, I'm sure. Give the game a month or two of play before you decide "what's what" and be nice to the incomming CS people, becasue you cant stop them from coming, and you should make the best of it. Show them how a real gamer plays. Set a good example and a wonderful 1st impression of the NS community.

Cowswin · March 2003

Lol, coil. When you were editing that "Marine01"s reply, I thought for a moment he was actually talking about the servers that had swear filters on them. I was like "eh? don't go on servers where those no swear filters?" hehehe.

Personally, I can hold my tounge pretty well here, but when I'm playing I tend to swear up a storm, and I don't use voice chat so I gotta type it all out too <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Necro · March 2003

also rememeber, while cs ppl will come over those true csers who play for frags WILL leave because ns REQUIRES teamwork.

also for those comparing to cs..cs was good...back in the day before it became uber popular in beta 6 or so.

before that it pwned, as for cs players most old skewl ones are good it's the new ones who started at 1.3 or so that are lame <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'>

roqalicious · March 2003

I agree sera there are alot of lamers in the community...*thinks of the irony*

CheeseSticksYo · March 2003

That's exactly what I am trying to say. Believe it or not "back in the day" CS was not a mod full of ultra elite people looking down upon eevery new player. And to hold it against someone just because they once played CS is just stupid.

It was because of my involvement in Counter-Strike that I met people that showed me NS. If it weren't for CS, I would have never discovered NS.

And I still see responses saying "Well not all CS players are morons but the average one is." Well guess what, the average PERSON is an idiot.

If you go into a CS server with 20 players chances are 14 of them are morons. If you go into an NS server with 16 players chances are 11-12 of them are idiots. Any way you look at it, both servers have a 70% idiot attrition rate. Yes CS has more raw idiots. But as a percentage of the whole, CS and NS have the same number of idiots.

Also maybe you guys are happy with a small community but I'm not. I get a total of 507 servers. If I filter out all of them that are plain empty, I get 123. So about 3/4 of the servers out there don't even have players in them. Now, let me take away the ones with passwords, or bots, or are have a ping over 100. I'm down to 22 servers. I basically have 22 servers to choose from if I want to play NS. That's not even counting the ones on stupid maps (siege, misslecomm) or lame maps (hera, bast).

The issue isn't servers, we got plenty of servers. We need more players. Kill the elitism on the servers and the newbs can grow and one day we just might have a crop of good players.

Typhon · March 2003

Keep in mind that Flay is not just gonna take those changes, throw them in and release 1.1. The news bit specifically states that playtesting has NOT started yet, and that all of that stuff is subject to change with testing.

Although I'm still worried about the whole "average game time of 11 minutes".

Fear Of 1.1?

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