Marine Tactics
Zenn
Join Date: 2003-02-01 Member: 12970Members
Join Date: 2003-02-01 Member: 12970Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Cheap, or Lack of Options?</div> Okay, people seem to complain a lot about Marines JP rushing, or Locking Down 2 hives, then teching up to kill final hive, relocating, or basicly ANY working marine tactic. Lets go over the marine tactics shall we, for review. Lets keep in mind that some are map specific, or map limited, but we won't worry about that here.
The Jetpack Rush:
First off, this does require a good team to pull off, and its rarely used on pubs because of the NOOB factor.
Basicly, you get yourself JPs as quickly as possible to make assults on the building hive or currently living hive to prevent Fades from appearing, and winning the game. Tactic became popular on tournaments because it is hard to fight against. Well done rushes can take anywhere from 4-6 minutes to get "off the ground" so to speak.
Relocation:
Not all that hard to pull off on the pubs.
You drop an IP (although I'm seeing the no IP become more common, damn thats risky) and quickly run to one of non-taken hive locations (and or 2 res node locations) and setup base there. From here you usually try to take another hive to establish a "2 hive lockdown" to prevent Fades from appearing. If you picked a 2 res location, you follow up with a JP rush from here. Then you tech up enough so that groups of 2-3 skulks don't kill your entire team of 8-9 people, and kill the hive. People complain about this because it usually makes games last longer than they should, but getting powerful enough to kill the hive when aliens are still trying to defend it does take a little time when you are turret farming the hive locations.
Hive Rush:
Build and IP or Two, Armory...then just constantly rush the main alien hive, killing all aliens that spawn in, complete with health and ammo drops. Maybe setup a TF and turrets. Kill hive quickly.
These are the basic marine strategies that are used right now. Why are they used? Because they work. Why else? Because not much else DOES work.
I'd like to see other posters respond on strategies that DO work, that don't require a RUSH of some kind. Usually once aliens get Fades, they are powerful enough to take 90% of marine held locations (unless marines have HA/HMG/GL to fight back with, if only LMG and LA they are toast).
Also, getting enough res to NOT require a rush, but to tech to HA and have "grand battles" is INSANELY hard in the current system. Res nodes are placed so spaced out that unless you spend nearly 150 res per node just to turret them up, they die to single or double skulk assults. Meaning that most marine strategy involving only being able to keep 2-3 res nodes at BEST. With 2-3 res nodes, fighting back 2 hive aliens is basicly impossible, hence all the strategy involved in not allowing that 2nd hive to get up in the first place.
All this is a game balance issue, and I'm SURE will be fixed in 1.1, but since we'll probably be dealing with 1.04 for months longer, I suggest you people DEAL with the current marine strategies...and stop complaining about them, because if they didn't do them, they would never stand a chance.
What I wouldn't give for a 1.05 holdover....::sigh::
The Jetpack Rush:
First off, this does require a good team to pull off, and its rarely used on pubs because of the NOOB factor.
Basicly, you get yourself JPs as quickly as possible to make assults on the building hive or currently living hive to prevent Fades from appearing, and winning the game. Tactic became popular on tournaments because it is hard to fight against. Well done rushes can take anywhere from 4-6 minutes to get "off the ground" so to speak.
Relocation:
Not all that hard to pull off on the pubs.
You drop an IP (although I'm seeing the no IP become more common, damn thats risky) and quickly run to one of non-taken hive locations (and or 2 res node locations) and setup base there. From here you usually try to take another hive to establish a "2 hive lockdown" to prevent Fades from appearing. If you picked a 2 res location, you follow up with a JP rush from here. Then you tech up enough so that groups of 2-3 skulks don't kill your entire team of 8-9 people, and kill the hive. People complain about this because it usually makes games last longer than they should, but getting powerful enough to kill the hive when aliens are still trying to defend it does take a little time when you are turret farming the hive locations.
Hive Rush:
Build and IP or Two, Armory...then just constantly rush the main alien hive, killing all aliens that spawn in, complete with health and ammo drops. Maybe setup a TF and turrets. Kill hive quickly.
These are the basic marine strategies that are used right now. Why are they used? Because they work. Why else? Because not much else DOES work.
I'd like to see other posters respond on strategies that DO work, that don't require a RUSH of some kind. Usually once aliens get Fades, they are powerful enough to take 90% of marine held locations (unless marines have HA/HMG/GL to fight back with, if only LMG and LA they are toast).
Also, getting enough res to NOT require a rush, but to tech to HA and have "grand battles" is INSANELY hard in the current system. Res nodes are placed so spaced out that unless you spend nearly 150 res per node just to turret them up, they die to single or double skulk assults. Meaning that most marine strategy involving only being able to keep 2-3 res nodes at BEST. With 2-3 res nodes, fighting back 2 hive aliens is basicly impossible, hence all the strategy involved in not allowing that 2nd hive to get up in the first place.
All this is a game balance issue, and I'm SURE will be fixed in 1.1, but since we'll probably be dealing with 1.04 for months longer, I suggest you people DEAL with the current marine strategies...and stop complaining about them, because if they didn't do them, they would never stand a chance.
What I wouldn't give for a 1.05 holdover....::sigh::
Comments
1) Have your team attack their hive, while building nozzles and teching up ( mostly weapon upgrades and armor, but then jps).
2) Secure 2 hives and upgrade like crazy
3) Dont do anything but take nozzles and upgrade. As soon as alien hive gets up, kill it, making aliens lose 70 res.
Id take that over a standard default strength HMG any time
1) Have your team attack their hive, while building nozzles and teching up ( mostly weapon upgrades and armor, but then jps).
2) Secure 2 hives and upgrade like crazy
3) Dont do anything but take nozzles and upgrade. As soon as alien hive gets up, kill it, making aliens lose 70 res. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay...1 involves a rush, 2 is a 2 hive lockdown...so those don't count, keep trying.
#3- MIGHT work, although a good alien team will kill every node you make right behind you. Not worth it.
1) Kill hives
2) Get upgrades
Same with aliens, they can either :
1) Take hives
2) Rush and win
ps : put mines on and around nozzles <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
- When marines succeed in a jp rush aliens next time should try to destroy one of the 5+ marine build resource towers or bases without turrets.
- When marines secure 2 hives (or 1 hive and a central map spot) in ealy game Aliens need to learn how to comunicate.
so far about the so called "cheap tactics".
lol its just cheap that aliens didn prevent them.
(its true, that JP rush is overpowered in 1.0 but who the hell cares. you can smell the JP fuel of this tactic (marines just build undefended res noozles) 10 minutes before the first JP gets dropped.
My favourite tactic is securing one hive defending my 2-4 res towers pushing back fades (no good marine team needs more than 3 res towers), and winning in a LONG exciting game with a fair chance for both teams in mid-game.
if my marine team attacks an alien hive right off the bat then its an "unfair rush" and if they dont then they have to take territory or sit around doing nothing.
marines get technology, thats what they do, dont call it a "cheap tech rush."
okay, im not very eloquent today, but my point is that everything a team does that would let him/her win the game is called imbalanced. if the skulk eats marines then the marines will call a skulk imbalanced and unfair. its a load of crap, play the game and use what you have.
when a pack of skulk rushes us before we even have an IP up, what we ahve to do is kill them! so be on your guard. just learn how to react to everything the enemy can do while pulling off your own tactics!
1. A rush of some kind, defined as winning by directly destroying the first hive before the 2nd comes up.
2. 2-hive lockdown, defined simply as getting and securing the other two hives before the aliens get them. Then you crush the initial hive.
3. 1-hive lockdown and tech up to fight fades.
Anyone disagree ?
Relocation is just securing a hive by moving your entire base there.
If you think about it, the alien side needs about 4-5 RPs to work well and quick.
The marines can win with 2-3. This suggests that the resource allocation favours marines and also enables the tech rushes.
Tech rushes are a lame tactic and though a valid one, prevent the players on the alien team from enjoying the game and causing frustration on the alien side. Thus, if the tech rush was delayed by at least 5-10 min, the aliens would have a chance to get a firm foothold and would encourage the marines out of the base on skirmishes to kill off gorges as opposed to defending their RPs and then rushing with JPs.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> ... Me thinks unfair
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The res system <b>is</b> being tweaked for 1.1.
If rushing was so integral to the marine wins, then why not make the game so that if aliens get a second hive it is game over? Heck, why both having fades or onos in the game if some people don't want to bother with allowing the game to naturally progress?
good gameplay > ANY rush
If people want rushes, there are plenty of CS servers out there.
Regards,
Savant
Generally I find the aliens get to the main base a little behind the initial move. Generally the only thing left is the CC with the comm in it...
If the aliens camp the other 2 hives (to prevent the move) then they are completely wide open to a straight rush. So the aliens don't suck.. it's tough to lock down 2 unused hives and have the manpower to defend the main hive.
Also keep in mind that when the marines move.. they ALL move.. so having 8-10 marines rushing a hive defended by 4 skulks is no fun for the skulks.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- When marines succeed in a jp rush aliens next time should try to destroy one of the 5+ marine build resource towers or bases without turrets.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If they have Jp's destroying the RT's won't change the fact that they are already buzzing around your head...
They already have the items.... can't take them away unless you kill the marines and while I've heard people tell tales about how many Jper's they've bagged, I play on pubs all the time and it's pretty rare.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- When marines secure 2 hives (or 1 hive and a central map spot) in ealy game Aliens need to learn how to comunicate.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This I agree with, aliens should always be scouting the empty hives for marine activity
I think what people have to understand is there is no 100% perfect tactic that means you win every time you play. It's like Rock-Paper-Scissors. Sometimes you have to try to stop the marine rush and hope they aren't moving. Other times you have to rush yourselves and hope that they don't camp the other 2 hives..
I find the more I play, the more it balances out...
My 2 cents
If you think about it, the alien side needs about 4-5 RPs to work well and quick.
The marines can win with 2-3. This suggests that the resource allocation favours marines and also enables the tech rushes.
Tech rushes are a lame tactic and though a valid one, prevent the players on the alien team from enjoying the game and causing frustration on the alien side. Thus, if the tech rush was delayed by at least 5-10 min, the aliens would have a chance to get a firm foothold and would encourage the marines out of the base on skirmishes to kill off gorges as opposed to defending their RPs and then rushing with JPs.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> ... Me thinks unfair <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The game is _designed_ for Marines to "tech up". The Arms Lab and Prototype Lab exist solely for the purpose of teching up. So, I don't see how a "tech rush" is a lame tactic. What is a valid Marine tactic, then - losing every game ?
However, I will agree that the resource model is flawed. The larger the games get, the longer it takes the aliens to put up resources and hence, upgrade chambers and the 2nd hive. However, the larger games favor the Marine commander, who actually gets resources faster.
However (to my however), it's all the Marines can usually do to keep 2-3 res nozzles. Unless there's a large marine presence (live Marines, not crappy turrets and mines), a group of skulks can take down an RT in no-time. However, it's quite easy for aliens to be able to keep 4-5 resource nozzles because:
a) it takes such a long time for a Marine to kill one, that a skulk or two has enough time to come by and chomp the Marine
b) the Marines rarely "own" more than 30% of the map, leaving the other 70% to the aliens
In conclusion, if the aliens cannot keep 4-5 resource nozzles early and mid-game, the aliens basically suck. If the aliens let the marines have more than 2-3 nozzles, the aliens basically suck.
You've never seen a real JP rush then because it doesn't even take 10 minutes.
Its true that marines are very limited to strats on pubs. This is not only due to the lack of team work that is inherant on pubs, but commanders who want to win at all costs. They know what "wins" so that all they use. The good comms are few and far between because, I think, pubs require the commander to be extremely flexible. It's easy to comm any number of marines that all cooperate and don't rambo. Once it hits the pub level, and maybe 40% - 50% of the team actually listens, the com has to make quick changes to his plans. The rambos run off, increase the hole the marines are in then quit, leaving the people that worked together to eat the acid rockets. It's not a very rewarding experience, when done wrong. When done right it is Glorious. So, in order to "do it right", you have to take advantage of your teams strengths. Rambos are good at rushing. Rushing dominates pubs.
That said unless you are an admin on the server, there is no way to keep a rambo heavy team from voting out the commander. Then the game turns into a Self Service Gun shop. So commanders are faced with a dilemma, try and get the team to work together, risking ejection, or rush the hive and win.
Some clan did this (dys?), obtaining JPs in 87 seconds, then winning the game.
Regardless, the issue is, if you are playing for fun, any strategy where the aliens are completely overpowered isn't gonna be fun. Any strat where the marines get pwned once the second hive is up isn't fun.
I agree with Savant that a lot of tactice are cheap and unfullfilling, but unless marines are walled up in the last hive, they are not gonna play a game they have a chance of winning when hive 2 comes online.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If rushing was so integral to the marine wins, then why not make the game so that if aliens get a second hive it is game over? Heck, why both having fades or onos in the game if some people don't want to bother with allowing the game to naturally progress?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is integral to marine wins because every win is based on keeping the aliens hurt. Fades and onos will have more of a role in 1.1. I know that most games are cheap, but almost nobody goes for full tech- i.e. motion, level3/level3 ha and new guns, because it's expensive, costly to give to newbies, and that marines have other strats that can win. Simply, the critical game is in the first 10 minutes and how each team reacts. After that, it's a cascading effect with little hope for turning around unless either team retakes a hive position or kills resource flow, or something that critical to the game.
Maybe the games will be more "fun" when 1.1 comes out. But for the time being, people play the game to win, and win the game the best way they know how.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not referring to the steady build towards the final mass attack.
The tactic i refer to is the mad rush to get the JP and HMG in the first TEN minutes and then just be lame and rush the hive.
Personally i have nothing against the "execution" squads that comprise HA/HMG/JP with full upgrades. These represent the skill of the commander in so much as surviving the initial rush, taking key res points and defending them successfully. After having done this, the marines hold their own against the alien team even fades and then come out tooled up and gun the hives down. This tactic i have used a lot on pubs and it works ONLY if the team is good and works together. It is PURE BLISS commanding a team of good players who can keep together, aim and not die as well as follow orders.
pwnage