My Team Isn't Balanced

Frahg · March 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">The Real Problem</div> I used to play NS for a couple hours EVERY NIGHT. Lately, I play less and less. Tonight I might not even play--I didn't play Saturday. I would like to keep playing, but I just can't bring myself to do it. I try to play, and after about ten minutes I look at my computer and say, "This is dumb. I'm not having a good time. I should be reading." Usually, when I'm not having fun I'm losing. And it seems like I lose a lot. That's probably overstated though, I win as much or more than I lose, but when I lose it's always brutal. It always hurts.

I used to think that the game was inherently flawed. Like there were certain weaknesses in the balance of the different races that caused strategies to fail miserably. That's part of it, to be sure, but only a small part. Lately I've realized that it's not really the races that are unbalanced--it's the teams. The players on the teams make or break the game. Suddenly it was clear to me. The reason I'm losing as much as I do is because I join the wrong team. I need to start joining the winning team every time. But how am I supposed to accomplish that? The tragic answer is, I can't. No matter what I do, there's no way to win every time.

I used to say, "I'm a pretty good player, maybe not incredible but I can hold my own against most opponents. Why then am I losing so much?" And, of course, the answer is that I'm not losing--my team is. It's like that Bon Jovi (?) song: "No man is an island", and in this game that's truer than ever. I can't make my team win; I can only contribute to it's success. However, no matter how hard I try, if my team just doesn't stack up to the other team, then we are going to lose. That's just it. And I can't control that. So I have to resolve myself to losing occasionally.

Unfortunately, losing in this game is no fun. Just like any real RTS, natural selection suffers the slippery slope concept. If my forces are held from advancing for too long, and the gap in technology becomes too great, nothing I do will recover from that. And "too long" is not long at all. The game is decided in one or two key minutes: extra resources, a seriously failed rush or completely successful one. It's like if someone trips in a race. Unless the tripped runner is substantially faster than the other guy, even a few seconds will cost them any chance of winning. And once I start losing, it's just not fun to play. When all my objectives--everything I try to do in the game--are hindered or entirely halted because of the opponents superior position, the game is just an exercise in futility. Like <a href='http://stripe.colorado.edu/~morristo/sisyphus.html' target='_blank'>Sisyphus</a>, I feel obligated to endless assaults on the enemy's base, never to achieve a thing.

But unlike Sisyphus I have an out. I find myself F4ing at far earlier points in the game. I see key victories lost, and project the downfall of my side far earlier than ever before. I feel like games are won and lost in a matter of minutes, and without any regard for any effort I supply to halt it. I feel helpless. And then I am forced to play out a victory charade, an endless struggle to regain control far after all has been lost.

And that's not fun. So I don't play as much as I used to. I don't play that much at all. I'm hoping that the future patches will alleviate this frustration but I don't see it coming. We're focusing on the wrong problem and I can't see this one being corrected.

Frahg

babygirl · March 2003

It sounds to me like you're having this problem because, well, you only have fun if you win.

This isn't really the best way to go about enjoying any form of competition =P If you're losing, even if you're losing so bad that you know you'll never come back, try to make the other team pay as much as possible. Try some new strategies on your own. Find new hiding spots as a skulk. Go rambo and try to make some good runs. Ask the comm if you could step in and do something whacky that just might improve the odds a bit. Grab a jetpack and make a vent your own little fort. Etc, etc.

Just remember: you can still be on a sinking ship and do the macarena.

DeepShadows · March 2003

Now really people, you have to respect how NS makes it fun even when you lose. To be true, NS is the best game to lose on as a marine. In... blast, is it? Where there's a lift right beside your base? Now, if you have any sense of environment, this map is absolutely beautiful to lose on. You have things shooting at you from every direction, nocking out lights. So, you get this blackness all of the sudden, with little flickers letting you see the outline of the aliens as they storm through and kill your companions. The only thing that would make this better is PANIC SOUNDS, or death screams, or something. Perhaps when you get up to hive 3, marines could start making "dear lord oh no!" sounds, it would make it so much more fun to get totally waxed by an onos. I mean, even the name Onos comes from "Oh, no."

Once again I ramble.

Elric · March 2003

If you can only have fun when winning and feel you should win every game, you need to be playing single player games on easy mode.

TheGlow · March 2003

I hear ya. I can do alot of business on my own, but I cant seal the deal often solo.
It hurts being with people who are messing up andbumblin or wont grasp tactics like hitting their res, protecting ours, etc.
And that lerking as soon as you get 33 to die in 1 minute isnt good.
or how 2 gorges right at the start complain whole game about no res. I wonder why. But yea, its rough to go down with the ship. But hell, some of the best action is when your losing. Remember when the odds are against you, thats more marine to eat.

Frahg · March 2003

I appreciate how you could interpret my comments as "I only have fun when I win." But I tried to make that as clear possible. Think of my comments more in terms Sisyphus and his futile pursuit. It's not that I don't have fun losing, it's that I don't have fun getting beaten so badly that no matter what I do my actions are fruitless.

And I feel that this is a part of the game. When one side gets ahead, by only just a little, this is inevitable.

Incidentally, Elric. I do enjoy playing single player games on easy far more than on hard. Then you get to enjoy the atmosphere of the game--the story, the sounds, the graphics--without dealing with the constant struggle that is beating a computer in terms of aim and reaction times...

Frahg

sekdar · March 2003

Frahg, i know how you feel... i stopped playing the game until 1.1 changes some stuff around.

there are many other games and many things in RL you can do to occupy yourself during this wait <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Narfwak · March 2003

I feel where you are coming from, although I do disagree a bit. I've seen plenty of comebacks, whether they were alien or marine, and been in some of those myself. Often it all comes down to never giving up - a while back, I played in a game where the marines relocated to a hive and held off wave after wave of fades, lerks and skulks for more than five hours when the server decided it just couldn't take it anymore.

Also, winning isn't everything. While losing after putting so much time and energy into a game can be discouraging, you shouldn't let it get you down so much. Personal achievements, clever strategies, silly bugs and just interacting with like-minded people can give one great pleasure. Hell, the simple fact that I'm actually playing this game instead of reading playtester stories and oohing at screenshots can still amaze me at times.

It's only not fun when you get consistently owned by a bunch of lamers that don't care how they kill you so long as they do. I'm not talking about exploiters and cheaters; while lame, they get owned by admins so they are not as prevalent as they used to be. No, I'm talking about turtlers - people that would still take three hours to kill a one-hive team even if the entire team had JP+HMG, siege cannons and an impenetrable fortress. These are the people that make the game absolutely no fun at times.

The best solution I can give to you is to play with friends. Find a select group of servers that have good ping, good admins and good players - then just stop playing on anything else. Strangely enough, when you know that the guy you are shooting is a good friend the shooting becomes much more entertaining.

Keyser · March 2003

I know where your coming from, and sometimes I feel it to. Although sometimes the frustration for me doesn't come from winning or losing, but how the game is played.

I hate in public servers when the teams are overly stacked, such as a whole clan joins marines and some guests join the aliens. Needless to say the aliens get owned with little effort, and the same thing starts over, except maybe the clannies join the aliens.

I don't know how people find this kind of thing fun. Whether I'm on the winning or losing side, this type of game just isn't enjoyable. Everyone hates it when their getting totally owned, but even sometimes when I'm on the stacked team, Its just not fun. Even if I'm commander and I see my marines slaughtering everything with no challenge, it still pisses me off. There is nothing I like more than a long well played out even game, those are the kind of games I play NS for. These kind of games are a blast to play whether your on the winning or losing side.

I don't know if this will ever happen, but it would be great to allow a server to force random teams, such as ns_siege00X maps. In my opinion, this would make the game much more enjoyable.

Well, this post was a lot longer than I wanted it to be, but theres my 2 cents

airyK · March 2003

join a clan that practices daily, or find a good server w/good people who play regularlly. learn good skills and ways of gaining victory....etc there are many things but picking where you play and who you play with is a good start!.

Corrado · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([2iD]EriC[LdR] @ Mar 18 2003, 01:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> join a clan that practices daily, or find a good server w/good people who play regularlly. learn good skills and ways of gaining victory....etc there are many things but picking where you play and who you play with is a good start!.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I agree with that guy. I play in a community based around 3 servers, and you enter and most people know who you are and you know them (kinda like Cheers).

You can decide on who you want to play with because you can guage the quality of each team, or thereabouts :o

Silent_Shwan · March 2003

if you want a good experiance, you usually have to make a stake and stay on a server, so people get your style of play and you get theirs, then games get fun. Ive seen so many games slip through as commander because all these people Ive never seen dont listen to me and dont get what I'm trying to do. on the other hand, the servers I usually command at, games are great because the other team knows my good strategies so I have to formulate new plans and I know the people around me so they know what I am trying to do.

thats my theory <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Paranoia2MB · March 2003

Most of the times when I join a game..I wait for a few secs to a min to see if the Marines have HMG/GL or if the Aliens have fade. Or I either go to observer and join the winning team most of the time.

Cheap way to win a game, but oh well. I'm the type of player that plays to Win..at least a majority fo the time.

I really dont want to spawn as a skulk to already have 10 grenades on me, or spawn as marine to see 50 bile bombs coming towards me. Or to see a gorge building ungodly fast as they usually do to block in a base when already the marine team sucks.

I've tried and believe me oh how have I tried my best to help the team, but I get tired really fast and i'm an F4'er. Base is surrounded by fades and o/c chambers and I just want to start a new game so I quit...dont like it? well deal with it..like how I deal with the stuff that already happens in NS. 90% of the people who play as marine dont know how to kill ONE fade

EvenFlow · March 2003

I hear where you're coming from, I play in South Africa and the community is small ( about 40 or so regular players ), the problem we're having at the moment is there are no good comm's and joining marines is something I'm doing because no one else wants to. I play a lot and I only remember 'rines winning about 3 times last week <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'> .

I think the only way for me to turn this around is for me to start comm'ing myself, it's going to be tough but someone has to do it <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

I enjoy playing Kharaa more than I do 'rines but it just is'nt any fun when there's no fight coming from them, my bit of advice, try something different until 1.1 comes out, try comm'ing or gorging etc.

Maveric · March 2003

I wander aimlessly...
Never tiring...
Only stopping when the computer freezes *kick* *smash* *bash* *hummmmmmmm* "PoS!"... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'>

And i never find a good server. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'>

Fragh, JP's or HA.
Welder necessary.
HMG suggested; LMG is second choice.
One word there after:

Vents.

Hold out for as long as you can, hopping about finding new routes and taking bigger risks than you normally would. Stealthing it up, and hoping they dont turn around 90 degrees.

I've done stealthing it, and its hella fun and funny to see people miss you, even when you could be in plain sight. Do they see you? ... or are they taunting you? Wishing that you would fire and reveal your position...

Hell, just last game i had steathed from marine base, ran outside past a WoL and a gorge. I had MT, so i knew where they were. I jumped down a lift, 35 HP now. I ran and ran and hopped alittle to gain some speed. The gorge gave it up and i headed to the closest hive; sewer (i think. the hive where the collapsed hall is next to the also collapsed door and walkway. also where there are two or three vent openings that can be welded).

I ran to the closest room where the downed machine was, and hid behind it as a skulk passed me by. Dear god i saw him speed by and then another pass me... but looked my way. Tried to parasite me and missed. God damn i was pi**ed! I took my LMG and shot them all off, then i whiped out my pistol; ten shells in his butt as i scoffed. HA HA!

Put him the respawn order and hurried my butt to a vent, and hurried again, god damn that skulk'd be hell bent! I walked my way up the thing, reloading my LMG. Headed up, then a two-way split. i went the way that lead downwards and held by the broken door, not quite ready for more. Skulk ran by me stuck at the door. "keep going, keep going, get out that door!". He did and my blood was as furious as a bear; i needed a new pair of underwear.

Asked comm for some health and a TF he dropped on my head. Freaking Turret factory sunk through the floor, skulk went through the three-way if he'd heard it i'd be dead. that point abandoned i continued on to vent near fusion. was good, till they found out where i was. got a close shave by the skulk's razor buzz.

Spot found out, lerk and fade on my butt. had a bout with a skulk, said "tut tut". Won it again, but my luck ran out as soon as the lerk used umbra and had a bout of chomping fits.

Wish i had a JP/Shotty kit...

So you can have fun, and shortly after i died the marine's ip's were destroyed. game over. but i had some good, pant filling experiances. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'> just strike it out on your own with utility equipment and make it a game of how long you can live. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Kenichi · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (babygirl @ Mar 17 2003, 05:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> It sounds to me like you're having this problem because, well, you only have fun if you win.

This isn't really the best way to go about enjoying any form of competition =P If you're losing, even if you're losing so bad that you know you'll never come back, try to make the other team pay as much as possible. Try some new strategies on your own. Find new hiding spots as a skulk. Go rambo and try to make some good runs. Ask the comm if you could step in and do something whacky that just might improve the odds a bit. Grab a jetpack and make a vent your own little fort. Etc, etc.

Just remember: you can still be on a sinking ship and do the macarena.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
babygirl definitly has this down. Just because you're losing doens't mean its over. If your going down take as many of them down with you. Learn to get better. This is the prime opportunity to play around and figure out what makes the game tick. Just remember, even the best teched team can go down to an unexpected sneak attack. I've seen games were people would f4, new players would take their spots, and we would come back to win the game. Of course those that f4'd and got forced to join the now losing team got thoroughly laughed at by several people for being stupid. The game isn't over until the music plays.

SoulSkorpion · March 2003

It really sounds like you need to find a new server, or find a good clan. A good game is challenging and hard-won, between two fairly evenly matched teams, and does not have one team doomed from the start. I seem to play quite a lot of good games.

But I do know how you feel. When I play gorge especially, often there's absolutely nothing more that I can do to help the skulks defeat the enemy, having sealed the hive, dropped ample DCs, provided healstations...

When I'm a skulk I try to go down in a blaze of glory if it's utterly hopless. Even though we can't win, I still attack installations, still try to take down as many marines as possible. There isn't much one person can do against a good team, but there's quite a lot you can do against a bad one (especially a bad commander) even if your own team sucks even more.

My Team Isn't Balanced

Comments