Starting Hive Locations
Salaman
Join Date: 2002-11-23 Member: 9711Members
Join Date: 2002-11-23 Member: 9711Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Some hives much better/worse than others</div> One of the trends Ive noticed through my 5 months of playing NS is that a few hive locations on certain maps have much more or less strategic value, and starting on the worst hive can cost you a game.
Though not a severe problem, half of the standard maps are affected by one hive location that spells defeat or victory.
Bear in mind that these are told from an aliens point of view, with the teams being standard public server fare, some skilled, dependable people, a number of average skill, sketchy as far as teamwork goes sorts, and one or two rambos or complete newbies in the bunch.
First off, the obvious one, that you probably thought of when you read the topic:
The Ns_nothing cargo bay power play.
Basically, if you don't start in this hive spot, you stand a good chance of losing. It's literally an uphill battle, and most comms will put all their efforts into taking this spot at all costs. Once the marines take it, it's a simple task to move to the back of the room, and pick off skulks in the vent and coming through the long main room. "fine" you say. "we'll take them with fades when powersilo/viaduct goes up". Well too bad buddy, 5 minutes later 6 HAs/HMG/GL just came down quad lift/generator lift. Fueled by cargo bays 3 easy to get nodes, another in docking wing, and the one in marine base, the marines quickly tech up and crush your first meager wave of fades. 'gg'.
The next instance is with ns_nancy and its noname hive
Aliens starting in noname seem to have a severe disadvantage. Basically an 80% chance win strategy for comms is to relocate to easy to defend subspace, build up, and the rush port engine in the first 5 mins of the game. It's almost unavoidable to stop, as the only way to intercept them is if you know beforehand they will try this. Defending port engine is also extremely hard. Marines can get at the end of the one hall, in the area with the windows, and kill skulks coming through the wide ground level vent. A couple other marines at the end of the hall near the two switch doors keep reinforcements from coming that way. After that it's easy enough to get a siege up, or simply starve the place of reinforcements if the gorge hasn't moved there yet.
Probably the one hive where I go "damn, we lose" right away is Ns_heras Archiving.
You honestly don't stand a chance if the marines have anything resembling teamwork and skill. Closest resource expansion spots for the gorge are hera entrance and reception, and holoroom, both very risky as just one rambo getting past your skulks = gorge bacon. Hope the marines don't feel like going for processing, as its a long walk from your hive. The only thing that this hive has going for it is that it's nearly immune to siege, being set so far back in a long room. Though it hardly matters when you can't get that integral 2nd hive.
The last problematic hive seems to be Refinery, in ns_bast
The problems with this one aren't as bad as the others, as you get two easily reached nodes besides the starting one. But still, you can hold the entire map except the two hives and still have no hope whatsoever of winning. Basically, if the marines go for feedwater (most common way, double rez spot is irresistable to most comms), they get the 2 nodes at atmospheric, the one in the hive, and likely the one at the bottom of the long ladder. With a sizable income, the marines can quickly JP rush the huge refinery hive, and bring about a quick end. Well lets say the comm goes for engine room, here you have a fighting chance, but it's still a long haul, considering the marines will most likely still have atmospheric at least to allow them to quickly tech.
The changes being speculated about V1.1 may render all this pointless, but I'd like to see future maps or possibly the existing ones reworked so that the outcome of the game isn't partially decided by a digital roll of the dice, hoping you don't get the bad hive.
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Though not a severe problem, half of the standard maps are affected by one hive location that spells defeat or victory.
Bear in mind that these are told from an aliens point of view, with the teams being standard public server fare, some skilled, dependable people, a number of average skill, sketchy as far as teamwork goes sorts, and one or two rambos or complete newbies in the bunch.
First off, the obvious one, that you probably thought of when you read the topic:
The Ns_nothing cargo bay power play.
Basically, if you don't start in this hive spot, you stand a good chance of losing. It's literally an uphill battle, and most comms will put all their efforts into taking this spot at all costs. Once the marines take it, it's a simple task to move to the back of the room, and pick off skulks in the vent and coming through the long main room. "fine" you say. "we'll take them with fades when powersilo/viaduct goes up". Well too bad buddy, 5 minutes later 6 HAs/HMG/GL just came down quad lift/generator lift. Fueled by cargo bays 3 easy to get nodes, another in docking wing, and the one in marine base, the marines quickly tech up and crush your first meager wave of fades. 'gg'.
The next instance is with ns_nancy and its noname hive
Aliens starting in noname seem to have a severe disadvantage. Basically an 80% chance win strategy for comms is to relocate to easy to defend subspace, build up, and the rush port engine in the first 5 mins of the game. It's almost unavoidable to stop, as the only way to intercept them is if you know beforehand they will try this. Defending port engine is also extremely hard. Marines can get at the end of the one hall, in the area with the windows, and kill skulks coming through the wide ground level vent. A couple other marines at the end of the hall near the two switch doors keep reinforcements from coming that way. After that it's easy enough to get a siege up, or simply starve the place of reinforcements if the gorge hasn't moved there yet.
Probably the one hive where I go "damn, we lose" right away is Ns_heras Archiving.
You honestly don't stand a chance if the marines have anything resembling teamwork and skill. Closest resource expansion spots for the gorge are hera entrance and reception, and holoroom, both very risky as just one rambo getting past your skulks = gorge bacon. Hope the marines don't feel like going for processing, as its a long walk from your hive. The only thing that this hive has going for it is that it's nearly immune to siege, being set so far back in a long room. Though it hardly matters when you can't get that integral 2nd hive.
The last problematic hive seems to be Refinery, in ns_bast
The problems with this one aren't as bad as the others, as you get two easily reached nodes besides the starting one. But still, you can hold the entire map except the two hives and still have no hope whatsoever of winning. Basically, if the marines go for feedwater (most common way, double rez spot is irresistable to most comms), they get the 2 nodes at atmospheric, the one in the hive, and likely the one at the bottom of the long ladder. With a sizable income, the marines can quickly JP rush the huge refinery hive, and bring about a quick end. Well lets say the comm goes for engine room, here you have a fighting chance, but it's still a long haul, considering the marines will most likely still have atmospheric at least to allow them to quickly tech.
The changes being speculated about V1.1 may render all this pointless, but I'd like to see future maps or possibly the existing ones reworked so that the outcome of the game isn't partially decided by a digital roll of the dice, hoping you don't get the bad hive.
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Comments
Ns_nancy- we have at least four skulks in mess hall, ready to ambush marines
ns_nothing- skulks rush cargo bay, harass marines rts
ns_bast- hold atmospeheric, not feedwater
ns_hera- hold processing at all costs. In fact, simply imagine that you're relocating to processing. Have one skulk patrol archiving, and the rest hold processing.
There are three simple counters to three simple strategies. The key is that good comms will try these, so tell your team where to go. With a bit of teamwork, marines will get slaughtered by the wwaiting skulks. Just don't expect to charge marines; instead, wait at these critical junctures for them.
All of the marine strats are strong, but the counters are just as strong if done correctly.
This is very true. Get one or two marines to engine and set up mines. Then hold and continue to mine the area over time. Grab atmospheric and take your time to get feed because seiging it is a matter of walking down the hall from atmospheric.
Also, if your gorge really wants to hold his ground, put up O chambers like mad. If you can knock out marine resource towers with carapaced skulks, keep rambos from getting through with O chamber chains, and contain marine expansion you win anyways. The problem with most gorges is that newer ones tend to not build D chambers quickly enough and think that capping four resource towers solves everything. This is when a slightly teched marine team will dominate again and again.
-OldManRipper
P.S. - Put this under the Suggestions and Ideas Forum Next Time
God, please, no. Anything but that. I can see it now...
"OMG, N00bz!!!!?!?!?! Who voted for noname? Ban them..."
"EVERYONE VOTE DATACORE!!!1!1!!1!!!!"
Before you know it there will be new players barely being aware of any other strategy apart from choosing the "1 correct hive" for each map.
you're an alien!?! <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
That's probably because this is the 1 situation where a public server marine team will have the guts to actually rush a hive :)
Random hive spawning must be the biggest issue with competitive NS play at the moment. I'm English, so i don't know if you have any special ways of dealing with it over there in sunny America..... Does CAL have any special rules regarding random hive spawning?
Getting a sucky hive in an important match kind of kills the idea of serious play.
On pubs, it is not as easy as "just guard cargo" or "keep them out of processing". Either it's inexperienced players or n00bs, but usually it fails. As an admin I have taken to bypassing Hera and Nothing rather than sit through a 45 min marine tech crawl or a Marine Cargo rush -> Red room siege.
I dislike the idea of choosing the start hive, it will turn into something far worse than the "Acceptable D-> M -> S" build order.
@KMO... : If you have that many noobs on your team that noname wins the vote your already doomed. Just press F4 you have no chance to win. (Except marines are even greater noobs) 1-2 correct starting hives would not be that bad. Marines always start at the same spot and it doesn´t make the game less fun.
How does the Kharaa infestation know which is the best place to start at all? I mean, this is TSA homeground, with established "nano" tech everywhere... That is why they have the comm chair in the same spot. However, the Kharaa are invading, morphing into a threat wherever there is opportunity. If you let the aliens choose which hive they begin with it will become the same game over and over.
Think siege cannons are a problem now? Just wait 'till they know which hive you're gonna vote for, EVERY GAME. Then EVERY map will have its own "Processing" that the "good comms" will go for, knowing that you spawned there and knowing where to place the perfectly ranged cannon.
As for Hera, that map just shouldn't be played on public servers. It has so many advanced features (weldables out the wazoo, double res noed, double hive siege spot, lots of resource nodes) that NS rookies get lost and/or confused. However, if you cannot reach Processing from Archiving in an orderly fassion as a skulk (which takes about as long as it does a TSA soldier) then you need to learn your vents. Archiving has a vent that will dump you right into Hera Entrance and Reception. From there, there is a vent that takes you to the area right outside processing -OR- you can go out over the green growth in front of the hive, through Holo Room and then either take the vents from the hallways to Holo Room and swing through Data Core or just take the labyrinth land route and go in through the arches. One key to killing TSA soldiers is hitting them from 2-3 directions at once. Do this every time and you get 2-5 kills, depending on how many are there. Even if 2-5 of your skulks die you still spawn faster, can get back there in the same amount of time, and can set the same ambush. Sure, the commander may begin to set up base somewhere else nearby, but just keep scouting and harassing long enough to get the second hive. Then, instead of saving for Fades, go LERK! With hitscan spikes and Umbra they are truly one of the deadlier lifeforms on the Kharaa team (not to mention a flying lerk is very hard to hit). The hitscan spikes are death to jetpackers and your umbra is death to their damage ratio.
Basically, stop complaining about your "bad hive spots" and start using your knowledge of the vents to out-flank the marines (beware the new concepts...) Oh yah, all the "Red Room" in ns_nothing needs is for a skulk to get up there, gorge, drop 4 O chambers and 3 D chambers, and then you won't have to worry about it. Then the skulks can use this as an outpost close to Generator, Miasma Walkway, etc for healing.
-OldManRipper
How does the Kharaa infestation know which is the best place to start at all? I mean, this is TSA homeground, with established "nano" tech everywhere... That is why they have the comm chair in the same spot. However, the Kharaa are invading, morphing into a threat wherever there is opportunity. If you let the aliens choose which hive they begin with it will become the same game over and over.
Think siege cannons are a problem now? Just wait 'till they know which hive you're gonna vote for, EVERY GAME. Then EVERY map will have its own "Processing" that the "good comms" will go for, knowing that you spawned there and knowing where to place the perfectly ranged cannon.
As for Hera, that map just shouldn't be played on public servers. It has so many advanced features (weldables out the wazoo, double res noed, double hive siege spot, lots of resource nodes) that NS rookies get lost and/or confused. However, if you cannot reach Processing from Archiving in an orderly fassion as a skulk (which takes about as long as it does a TSA soldier) then you need to learn your vents. Archiving has a vent that will dump you right into Hera Entrance and Reception. From there, there is a vent that takes you to the area right outside processing -OR- you can go out over the green growth in front of the hive, through Holo Room and then either take the vents from the hallways to Holo Room and swing through Data Core or just take the labyrinth land route and go in through the arches. One key to killing TSA soldiers is hitting them from 2-3 directions at once. Do this every time and you get 2-5 kills, depending on how many are there. Even if 2-5 of your skulks die you still spawn faster, can get back there in the same amount of time, and can set the same ambush. Sure, the commander may begin to set up base somewhere else nearby, but just keep scouting and harassing long enough to get the second hive. Then, instead of saving for Fades, go LERK! With hitscan spikes and Umbra they are truly one of the deadlier lifeforms on the Kharaa team (not to mention a flying lerk is very hard to hit). The hitscan spikes are death to jetpackers and your umbra is death to their damage ratio.
Basically, stop complaining about your "bad hive spots" and start using your knowledge of the vents to out-flank the marines (beware the new concepts...) Oh yah, all the "Red Room" in ns_nothing needs is for a skulk to get up there, gorge, drop 4 O chambers and 3 D chambers, and then you won't have to worry about it. Then the skulks can use this as an outpost close to Generator, Miasma Walkway, etc for healing.
-OldManRipper <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
1.) I dont give a **** about story based concepts like kharaa infestation rules and hive mind logics. I want to have a fun game and a wrong hive handicap is not funny.
2) As i said before comms can find out starting hives within the first 30 secs so siegeing wouldnt be more of a problem than it could be now. Sure strats would be based on that 1-2 hives but aliens would perfect their defense for those hives too so there would be no marine advantage.
3.) I know the vents in hera but its still the double way compared to data core and vent hives.
4.) On the servers i play on the marines have the upper hand the first few minutes until carpace is available. 2-5 kills in a row are veeeeeeeery rare. Most times 1 marine kills 2 uncarpaced aliens before he dies. And if 2-3 marines make it into the corner of processing they can easily fend of the skulks till a phase or reinforcements arrive. And once 5-6 marines stand in processing you need a wonder to take it back.
5.) Its more of a suggestion than a complaint. I like the game how it is but it would be so much better if the aliens could choose the starting position since some hives are very unbalanced toward the marines if the aliens are unlucky at the hive lottery.
6.) Drop 4 OC and 2 DC? Im talking about decent marines! By the time you can afford that stuff they already secured the key locations on the map and toy with the remaining aliens till JP/HA... is available.
That's probably because this is the 1 situation where a public server marine team will have the guts to actually rush a hive <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Random hive spawning must be the biggest issue with competitive NS play at the moment. I'm English, so i don't know if you have any special ways of dealing with it over there in sunny America..... Does CAL have any special rules regarding random hive spawning?
Getting a sucky hive in an important match kind of kills the idea of serious play. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
nah its cause the res you can cover form 2 spots is insane then you siege push in the first 5 min of the game take out their first hive and have 7 rts :/
you're an alien!?! <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Best. Quotes. Ever...
Anyhoo, not to kill this thread, but the original creators of these maps are aware of the issues and are working on correcting them in maps that are making a repeat performance in NS 1.1. Hindsight is 20-20 and all that nonsense. Look forward to these maps being all set in 1.1 and these issues tweaked away by the BSP gods.
BTW Monse I love your Avatar.
That's probably because this is the 1 situation where a public server marine team will have the guts to actually rush a hive <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Random hive spawning must be the biggest issue with competitive NS play at the moment. I'm English, so i don't know if you have any special ways of dealing with it over there in sunny America..... Does CAL have any special rules regarding random hive spawning?
Getting a sucky hive in an important match kind of kills the idea of serious play. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, they don't. And it is a shame really, hive locations more than likely ruin the only chance you've got.
ns_bast: feed
ns_eclipse: eclipse
ns_nothing: cargo
ns_caged: vent
ns_tanith: fusion
ns_nancy: port
Cargo Bay
Easy to rush, easy to get to, easy to kill from the vent. Sure you get nodes, but its a long/hard way to the next hive and one JP/HMG can take down your hive easily.
Viaduct
Way to far away from everything. Way to open. again, another JP/HMG disaster. You can seige from the RedRoom, without most aliens figuring out, our you can just JP/HMG/GL your way to victory.
Powersilo
Also, way to open. The halls leading into powersilo are WAY WAY to easy for a marine to sit at the end of and just pick the aliens off one by one. And, much like the others, Powersilo is an easy hive to JP/HMG.
All in all, ns_nothing is totally in favor of the marines, I mean crickey theres 2 nodes right next door. Easy Teching material.
-Anach
My $0.02
I don't think I have ever seen a clan relocated to Cargo in a match/scrim (Unless you consider the spawn portal rush to attack the hive, that happened once to us but it failed, but thats not what you meant obviously). The problem with not spawning cargo ISN"T the res nodes at cargo, it is the severe crappiness of the other 2 hives on the map.
Viaduct and powersilo are 2 of the worst hives in the game... They're BOTH marine rushable and easy to camp spawns (But via is a fairly long semi-dangerous walk). Powersilo is a short walk, and can easily be killed with a marine rush through foreboding and shooting the hive from the long hallway, you don't really even have to camp spawns unless they all out rush you and fail. Besides that, both are siegable. Red room for via, and there are 2 easy spots for powersilo. Let me say though, that these sieges are a last resort, because.....Both hives are Jetpackable, and EASILY jetpackable at that. Docking wing is a "free" resource which believe it or not allows marines to tech up fast enough to counter any 2nd hive before they can defend it.
But, what if aliens spawn cargo? Are they sure to win?? Not necessarily, nor not really at all STILL. The thing is, you can pressure Cargo SO easily and so quickly from the start, before they even have half the res for a lerk. Get in that vent, and skulks can't touch you. An easy pressure is send 2 marines there, 1 to docking, 1 to generator/miasma. This effectively locks down the skulks into cargo, and gives you 2-3 res.. (Docking, Miasma, and Generator). On top of that, once they are contained, you can drop a couple mines, and head out to foreboding and Powersilo nodes too. Obviuosly once you have 6 total res nodes, its safe to say the game is over. But you don't even need the extras, thats just for kicks and giggles, you can tech with 3 total res easily with aliens not getting any. Another problem with cargo is it is easily spawn campable and decently easy to take out the res node with 3 marines. I don't really know what else to say except that ns_nothing is a marine sided map. The whole map is filled with long hallways that are easy to kill skulks in, and virtually no vents or ambush places for skulks.
Now i'll quickly touch on the other ones you said....noname on nancy. Well, Nancy is a fun map IMO. Skulking is good on nancy, with map control early given to the aliens because of the great vent system. The vent system has like 6 overhead drops, and 1 from under the floor for ambushes. Also, the vents take you completely from noname to subspace. If the marines relocate to subspace (Which only happens in pubs again) all you realistically have to do is mass up in the vent and jump into subspace behind them. The problem...Most people on pubs don't know the vent system on nancy, nor any map for that matter.
Oh You make a good point about archiving though. Hera is death for aliens, so is holoroom once it is welded...A big problem with Hera in general though is the external nodes,.... I wouldn't call it a "problem" but it is right now with 1.04. Due to the marines owning early game they can take out data core or archiving's nodes quickly,. Archiving is a little harder but processing is fairly simple task. I agree with you that Archiving is a "bad" hive but i don't think its any worse then the others on the map...
Also, you mention a 2nd hive being an "integral" part of the alien tactics... I must disagree here. In pubs aliens usually rush the marine base once, and fail (If they win then we wouldn't be having this discussion, we'd be complaining about the early game alien rush...). THen they completely back off of the marine base. In matches you'l notice a constant pressure on marine base most of the time, and I think the main "professional" strategy for Hera is a 1-hive alien rush...
Alot of this is the extreme imbalance of 1.04 though. Marines >>>>> Aliens. BUT...midgame, for one solid rush, aliens > Marines. If that rush fails then the aliens basically lose...if it succeeds (Which it almost ALWAYS does) then aliens win obviuosly. Also, Kudo's to HAM and sYn for their alien rush ideas and experiments. The problem, is hitting the marines at exactly the right time, and getting it set up without the marines knowing its coming.
Whelp enough chat from me, im gonna go play. late.
ns_eclipse: eclipse
ns_nothing: cargo
ns_caged: vent
ns_tanith: fusion
ns_nancy: port<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Argh.. I don't understand this list.. is it supposed to be best or worsthives?
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ns_eclipse: eclipse (worst) (CC best)
ns_nothing: cargo (best)
ns_caged: vent (best) (generator horrible, worst ever, sucks)
ns_tanith: fusion (best)
ns_nancy: port (worst) (no-name best)
^^ that's how I see it.
I'm not talking clan matches, I am talking high-teamwork 9 vs 9, with good tactics. On the other hand you say nancy is a good map for skulks, on our server nancy i known as ns_marines_always_win (look here for a rare alien win: <a href='http://www.cofrfps.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=933' target='_blank'>ns_nancy, alien win</a>). Usually the middle hives (fusion, vent, cc etc) are the best because they allow more flexibility. I like the way hives are different, on bast for example you have to adapt your strategy a lot depending on hive (engine = force reloc or die, feed = hold atmos and ref, refinery = harass Marine res, stop JP's).
Anyway, I'm way off point now probably but... it's 8:22 in the morining!! That's my excuse, and I am sticking to it.
Ps. Grove is in the heart - DeeLite
Basicaly the whole game it was lvl1 aliens against HMG and GLs with Heavy armor. I was gorge and I built up the entire map with Offensive chamber and all the Res towers that weren't in range of a siege turret. Of course since marines had cargo, they had 3 Res towers. and they bought tons of HMG and new HA, but the poor aliens don't have anything to spend their fortune on. We try to put up the hives without them noticing, but the com was always pinging the hives periodicaly, usualy right when the hive was almost done. Twice the hive did managed to go up and every single person on the team went fade. but for some reason we still didn't totaly destroy them. The stalemate would have gone on forever until we made a mistake and a JP build a phase outside of power silo and a lot of HA phased in and set up a siege gun.
I hate siege guns, they totaly are unfair. it gives the commander too much power to destroy just by pinging the hive.
Theres nothing aliens can do to counter it. Every strategy in a RTS game needs a working counter.
If the marines control that area instead and weld the vent in reactor room, it can make it very difficult for the aliens to move around the map.
Sat comms, on the other hand, is a hive I <b>hate</b> starting in. In addition to the Vent Of Death pointing directly at the hive, jetpacker love continues with a big, boxy ceiling and some convenient perches with direct firing lines in case their little jetpacker feet need to feel terra firma for a second or two.
It will be very interesting to see how the map changes in 1.1 affect gameplay - and how changes to the res model/tech/etc. integrate with those changes. Every standard map in 1.04 is changed for 1.1 except ns_nancy.