The English Language.
Dubers
Pet Shop BoyEdinburgh, UK Join Date: 2002-07-25 Member: 998Members
Pet Shop BoyEdinburgh, UK Join Date: 2002-07-25 Member: 998Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">Invented by the english?</div> What do ya think? This is a follow up of one of the off topic threads in which MonsieurEvil made the point <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As for inventing English, ehhh, it's a mixed bag comglomeration of germanic languages and french. It's linguistically questionable to say it was invented by the english. But that's a topic for the Discussions forum. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So discuss!
Comments
The language we now call English was sufficiently distinct from Old Norse and Germanic languages by about 800 AD to be considered a language in it's own right. This language is called Old English by scholars. I can guarantee you that you would not recognize it as English. Poems such as <i>Beowulf</i> and <i>The Dream of the Rood</i> exist in this language. Middle English, the language of Chaucer, was common in Britain in the 12th to 14th centuries. Most North American students have encountered <i>The Cantebury Tales.</i>
English is a great borrower from other languages, and includes words and phrases from Latin, French, and many other languages. As english-speaking people migrated to other places in the workd, they took their language and customs with them (to the United States, Canada, Australia, and many other places). Since languages continuously evolve, each of these places now employ an English that is somewhat different from that used in Britain. This in no way implies that English in Britain is "correct", or in any way superior to the English employed elsewhere. In fact, the storage compartment of a car in the United States is not a "boot", it is a "trunk." Usage is defined by concensus of the users in the location of use. "Colour" is the accepted spelling in Canada, "color" is accepted in the United States. Both are correct in their respective environments.
Perhaps the greatest strength of English is this richness, this ability to change with the times, this marvelous vocabulary of several hundreds of thousands of words. Is English the language of England? No. It is my language. It is your language. It is spoken in England, and at my dinner table, and into your voicechat microphone. Embrace it. Celebrate it. Use it.
P.S. - Yes, one of my degrees is in English Literature (with Honours)
No dizoubt, yo. I'll be surprised if anyone can top this one... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Perhaps the greatest strength of English is this richness, this ability to change with the times, this marvelous vocabulary of several hundreds of thousands of words. Is English the language of England? No. It is my language. It is your language. It is spoken in England, and at my dinner table, and into your voicechat microphone. Embrace it. Celebrate it. Use it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ill open this up for a little more discussion. How much distortion in local and cultural dialects should we accept to be legitimately part of the English language?
Another question: Do you think emoticons and internet specific words such as the infamous "elite" should be included in dictionaries?
Edit: The filters on this forum are really annoying. Imagine that "elite" above says 1338-1 and you will get the idea.
But English can be real pain the butt for others to learn with its (it's, its') bizarre (sometimes non-existent) grammar rules, insane spellings (cough == kof. Go figure), and idiomatic weirdness (thru, threw, through). Mix in all the colloqialisms, regional dialects, and our American media giants stirring all your pots with our 24-hour slang broadcasts, and I almost feel pity for the world. Almost.
3nGL1SH pwns j000!!!!
EDIT: found a Kanji stylus-based tablet view below... Aiiiieee!
Japanese has much more consistant grammer rules. I'm pretty sure there are only 2 irregular verbs or something like that.
Heh, reminds me of all of the stories of 2 of my best friends when they took a trip to Hong Kong and Japan. Imagine a 6-foot-3-inch tall Chinese and an equally tall self-proclaimed-stereotypical-Jew walking in the crowded oriental streets, the Chinese one translating for the Jew in Hong Kong, and the Jew translating for the Chinese in Japan.
All of the Japanese shop owners must've been thinking "what the heck kind of tourists <i>are</i> these?"
As for getting back on-topic, I'll just compliment Vimstl for having the patience to study language for a major. Yeesh...I'll probably take software engineering when I have to make that decision, thank you very much. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
3 irregular verbs that make a diffrence, but there are also a majority of verbs that are somewhat "irregular" in the way they conjugate to the -te form, but they are easy enough to learn [i have only encountered 4 or 5 in the 3 years of my study so far]
the "spoon-o" thing you mention does exist-foriegn words that have no historical roots in japanese often are not in the language
for instance: waitress
the japanese equivalent would be a midieval barmaid [roughly]
so they just say "waitoresu" pronounced "waitores"
sofa = sofa
yaught = yotto
so on, so forth
whenever i learn a new word like that in japanese, i am relieved [because it is easy to remember] and dissapointed that they dont have a word for it at the same time <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
as for writing, yep, it sucks
3 styles of writing:
KANJI-the japanese took these from the chinese. their are two readings -ON and KUN (i may be wrong, but i believe the ON reading is the chinese reading and the KUN reading is the japanese reading)
for instance, the kanji for "eat" can be read as shoku or as tabe (ru)
katakana were made so that the language could be transcribed. they are simplified kanji, and they represent the phonetic alphabet [the japanese one]
a i u e o
ka ki ku ke ko
sa shi su se so
ta chi tsu te to
na ni nu ne no
ha hi fu he ho
ra ri ru re ro
ma mi mu me mo
ya yu yo
wa wo
eventually, hiragana were invented. they were simplified katakana, so now your average citezan could phonetically spell anything. they were also created because many kanji did not incorperate the full word
EX:kanji for eat. "to eat" is taberu. the kanji reads tabe. add a phonetic ru and you are set
nowadays, katakana are used for foriegn words such as cola, waitress, yada, yada
japanese grammer is very consistant. unfortunatly, [from personal experience] informal speech is a **** to figure out sometimes. the super polite speech is hard to learn as well
EX: what are you eating?
basic:nani o tabeteimasuka?
formal: nani o meshiagatteimasuka?
basic informal: nani o tabeteru?
weird stuff i have encountered: nani tabeteru no ka?!?!
many people feel intimidated by japanese, but it really is not as hard as everyone makes it out to be
if you like, i can give you a crash course in japanese verbs <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> speaking it is quite easy, but writing is another story.....i cant learn kanji for ****
As for getting back on-topic, I'll just compliment Vimstl for having the patience to study language for a major. Yeesh...I'll probably take software engineering when I have to make that decision, thank you very much. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In fact, I have a Masters degree in Software Engineering. How do you get from a BA in English to an M.Eng. in Software Engineering? Well, that's a long story ... for another time. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
die Universität - University
der Apfel - apple
die Lampe - lamp
die Banane - banana
Afrika - africa
Europe - europe
Riechen - to smell (it has a negative connotation in english though)
die Toilette - toilet
der Finger - finger
die Hand - hand
juggeln - to juggle
tapizieren - to put tapestry on a wall
die Bälle - ball
die Grantate - grenade
dumm - dumb [as in "Dummkoph!"]
I would put down more but I am 1) lazy and 2) fat.
..I suppose I should really finish what I sta
--Edit-- More words!!!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->juggeln - to juggle<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
'Juggeln' is no German word. The translation of 'to juggle' is 'Jonglieren'.
Aside from that, I'd like to note that English is not directely based on German, it's based on Saxon, a German dialect spoken by the Saxons (named after the sachs, a shortsword). The Saxons invaded the southern coast of what should later become England and influenced the gaelic languages of the native inhabitants.
Even today, many words in the saxon dialect resemble their English equivalents ("off" - "off", "up" - "up", "nu" - "now").
The 'first' German language was developed by Martin Luther in the 1500's, when he translated the Bible and thus had to unify each dialects aspects into a common language everyone would understand.
As for English and its importance to the world, I think there are several influences that make it what it is today:
English is spoken natively by a very large group of people, it's easy enough to learn so that anyone can get at least get a mild grasp of it (as opposed to, for example, Madarin, which may be spoken by more people, but is too difficult to learn for non-natives), and it's the predominant cultural language of our time.
This makes English the current 'language of the world', like French in the 17th and 18th century.
I read somewhere that the convoluted English spelling system does help make it a very powerful and expressive language to write in. The only example I can remember is that from the spelling of <i>sign</i>, as in to write your name, it is immediatley clear that it comes from <i>signature</i>, even though the sounds are (now) completely different.
Another question: Do you think emoticons and internet specific words such as the infamous "elite" should be included in dictionaries?
Edit: The filters on this forum are really annoying. Imagine that "elite" above says 1338-1 and you will get the idea. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll try and answer these.
If you can converse with someone using your 'english', and be understood by somebody else who speaks 'english', your speaking english (keep up at the back <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
If you can't be understood, your not speaking english but something so transformed that it no longer is english and is a seperate language.
For example, I can go to America and apart for some slang terms and collaquial differences (boot - trunk, pavement - sidewalk) converse and be understood. If however I go to some parts of Scotland, the slang and heavy accent make it extremly difficult to converse, to a point that i'd suggest some people are in fact speaking 'Scottish'.
It depends upon the dictionary but I think the common rule is that a word has to be mentioned so many times in so many different articles/publications before it is included. Maybe someone could confirm ?
Lexicographers are by nature a conservative lot. Furthermore, dictionary production slow and expensive.
Therefore, a dictionary tends to be a snapshot of the language as it was practised 5 to 10 years before the dictionary's publication. While most dictionaries will include a representative sample of slang, they are meant to be a reference for common or accepted usage. Typically, a word must be commonly used for about ten years before it will begin to appear in mainstream dictionaries.
To name a few: Greek, Latin, Galic, Nordic, French, Spanish, German...the list goes on.
Why do you think its rules are so contradictory and just plain <i>dumb</i> sometimes? The English did not, by any means, invent the "English" language...they simply <b>adopted and adapted</b>.
Pffft, he only invented the written language. Written is the keyword...and by word I mean action.
Say, speaking of Martin Luther, he was a great man with his 95 thesis and such. I mean, he created mainstream protestantism AND a written language for one of the cooler languages in the world.*
* Posted to not really add to conversation but to make my post seem wordier and smarter.
Sidenote: I've heard that Finnish is one of the hardest to learn languages... English is not that bad.