How Does Kharaa Win A Large Game?
Renmauzo
Join Date: 2002-12-27 Member: 11571Members
Join Date: 2002-12-27 Member: 11571Members
<div class="IPBDescription">I can't win with alien in 12 vs 12 game</div> How do alien swin large games like 12vs12 or 14vs14?? I've been to this type of games a lot lately on some new servers I found.. And it seems like the game is pretty much decided before the gorg can even have 2 res node up.. Massive marines can take control any area easily.. Or maybe even charge into your hives while 1-2 ppl collect res and build pg on the other hives.. The alien has no way to counter them it's just sad.. In fact, whenever I enter thoes 10vs10 + maps, everyone just stack to join the marine side as if alien has absolutely no hope.. So.. how do you win?
Comments
A: Join an 8vs8 game.
1. Spawnrate. A major assault by the marines leading to a mutual slaughter, say 11 dead on each side. The aliens will need 88 seconds to recupurate, the marines... well, with 2 IP, they will need 55 seconds, with 3 they will need about 35 seconds. Considering that the marines need about 30 seconds to reach the hive, they can simply overwhelm the spawn capacity of the kharaa hive, ensuring that instead of a 12v12, it's mostly a 12v6 game. It's ALL downhill from there...
2. Resource model. Marines have a fix cost to do just about anything = buildings and research cost the same, no matter the size of the game. Income, however, increases lineraly with teamsize. Thus, in a 12v12 game, the marines tech up 50% faster than in an 8v8 game.
Both of these problems are known and are likely to be fixed in 1.1.
marines every time, and with so many players hey can have mulitple groups of large amount of players and still have some to do something else.
and yea, the res model. more suited for TSA if lots of people.
Servers where you get banned if you build an early TF in base?
Marines with 2 res nodes effectivly have 4 if you compared to lower player servers, which allows for FAST AS HELL teching. God forbid they get 4 or 5 nodes.
oh, and you DON"T win as aliens in a 12 on 12 game.
If he's turretfarmed up two hives and the main base and mines are more prevelant then bullets AND you have all upgrades its not so much a n00b comm as one who just wants to drag the agony out...
Few times i have won big games as aliens, because marines have had a noob commander and when the whole kharaa team evolves to fades/lerks, marines doesn't have a change anymore.
Well, once we have lost about 6 games in a row and it started to suck badly, so this is what we did:
One of our alien team member joined to marines, then he runs in to a commander chair and spends all of the money by building CC's around the base <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> , F4 and then he joins back in our team. You might think that we won instanly because of that, but actually it was pretty good game, because we had a bit more time to build stuff and secure second hive better. Marines started to rush in our hive locations, but we managed to get few fades and hold them back...
Yes i know, it was cheap. But c'mon we have lost 6 games. And we have tryed everything, but we couldn't stop those big marine rushes. We lost that game, but it lasted more than 10 minutes and marines didn't managed to lock down two hive locations in 5 minutes.
Well it was finnish server and map was ns_eclipse
Yes i know, it was cheap. But c'mon we have lost 6 games. And we have tryed everything, but we couldn't stop those big marine rushes. We lost that game, but it lasted more than 10 minutes and marines didn't managed to lock down two hive locations in 5 minutes.
Well it was finnish server and map was ns_eclipse <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lemme guess: Enya's? I think I was there when they did that. Horrible. You should have been banned.
When I comm on a big server, I dont even try to lock down two hives. I just lock one hive and about 4-5 res nodes. I can easily upgrade and tech to HMGs/JPs and take down the two hives. The other factor is when you have those 18 player servers. If a alien team has 9 members, the gorg is gonna get sucky res for the whole game. Each res node only giving 1 res per tick and 9 players sucking that up.
When i go gorg, I tell the skulks to go suicide the marine base and keep them in. The point is not to destroy the buildings and kill the marines (even though that helps alot). This game reminds me of Starcraft marines and zerglings. 1 zergling kills one marine, but 10 marines will completely slaughter 10 zerglings. To keep the marines in the base you can't charge in and expect to dodge 10 LMGs. Wait till they pass and chomp them up. The point is to keep the marines from getting more res nodes early on and to commit suicide. If a player is dead, he doesn't recieve res during that period. So if I have alot of dead skulks and marines in the base, I can get a few RTs up fast and get that second hive going.
One mistake alot of gorges make is to spend too much res and time defending second hive. I put 5 o chambers and 3 d chambers. After that I start defending res nodes. The aliens do not start winning until they have fades. Also, unless the marines have 2 hives, you shouldnt see any lerks before fades. Getting those few crucial fades fast can make or break big games. Slowing down is the marines is the most important factor. For marines res=win.
Wait, come back, I wasn't finished explaining!
Really, on a server as big as 10v10 or 12v12, no matter how much carapace you have, running into 4-6 marines (they almost can't help but have teamwork under these conditions) will be a slaughter even with unupgraded LMG's. There's just way too much lead flying in the air, and you're going to get hit.
So don't fight the Marines the Marine way; go guerrilla. Get movement upgrades first, and get 3 as soon as you can. This means have 1 guy go gorge and start capping nodes. When a few guys have gotten 27 pt's, go gorge, make 1 movement chamber, then go back to skulk. Boom, 3 MC's in the first couple minutes. Now - all your skulks get silence and start using your wallclimbing skills for once. Wait in the rafters, use ambush tactics. It will be awhile before Marines can tech motion tracking no matter how fast they research. Wait for those roving patrols, and silenty pounce on the rearguard troops. You'll usually get 1 or 2 before they even figure what's going on and return fire. Do this a half-dozen times. The Marines will wimp out and turtle up, screaming like girlies at their commander for HA and weapon upgrades. This will give your gorge time to get hive 2, and then some DC's. By then, you should be all ready for fade/lerk partners (you DO use 1-1 fade/lerk partners, right?) and the final assault. Game over, alien victory, smack talking in the readyroom.
Don't believe me? Try it out! After a little practice (obviously, it requires aliens that aren't total 'GET DC J00 N00b' smacktards - but after a couple losses their way it should be easier to convince them), you'll be in the black and kicking meat sack heiny.
You can also go for a sensory set first, but that's a bit riskier and requires more experience players. Getting sensory 2nd though allows you develop the ultimate Kharaa Death Ninjas that don't show up on MT or in your ears until the claws are inches from your face. Succulent.
It's about time alien players learn to be flexible.
The current resource mode is pretty bad, what's worse (or perhaps, fortunate) is that the difference in spawn rate makes it tip even more in Marine's favour. The poor skulks <i>can</i> rush the marine spawn, but it's a make-or-break affair. The imbalance is so obvious that the dev team now *has* to fix it. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yes, coordinated ambush <i>is</i> the way to go.
I thought that you still showed up on Motion Tracking with Cloaking? Movement first is a good idea though as you can use them to teleport from hive to building hive if its under attack. Although if the mareins get a phase up in the second hive without attacking it it won't help, but if it gets hurt in the fight (which it normally will) then you can all quickly teleport into the second hive as you reswpan, which means you can appear at the spawn points and easily eat the marines guarding the entrances.
Not if you're cloaked and not moving. Just hang on the ceiling in the usual marine avenues of apparoach, wait for the jingle jangle of gear, let a couple of them pass in under you and then fall right among them. Instant chaos. You will get probably get killed (that's a no brainer), but you will take 1 or 2 with you, and do what guerrillas do best - demoralize and confuse. They will get so paranoid that your gorge will have a short, boring journey to 3 hives and victory...
Your point regarding teleporting back to a hive under attack is also excellent.
Movment and defence is better, as even with 100% surprise on one good marine, they still often spin around, jump and kill you without carapace.
Sensory doesn't help other than increase the ammout of 100% surpirses you get, but now that you can't hide in plain sight and eat their feet as they walk into you its not as good..
Using movement/defense is fine, but not in big games. If you do not adapt for big games as aliens, you will lose them most of them. It's 'natural selection'. That's what this is all about - DC's first in big games == alien loss, unless the Marine team is silly.
My second suggestion would be, assuming that the marines are always rushing in a big group, then attack the places where the marines are not ie Marine Base. If the marines are able to move around in such big groups, what is stopping the aliens from doing the same? The aliens have the advantage of being able to set up ambushes too. One guy sees a large marine group, gets mowed down, communicate their direction to the team, and the team responds by swiftly moving to an ambush position.
Its map dependant, but on quite a few maps it would be quite easy for the aliens to all camp outside marine base and wait for marines to move out, then take out marine base while they are all off somewhere else.
I would strongly suggest option one, however.
"Never build DCs first!" isn't much better than "always build DCs first!"
If my skulks are rushers, and they're good at it, I'll give them the DCs they need to do their job. If my skulks are sneaky ninjas, I'll give them MCs.
The gorge's job is asset management. Hive location is an asset. Map layout is an asset. The various upgrades are assets. And, ultimately, the other players are assets.
IMO, the best possible strategy is to hit the ground running (with a detailed knowledge of all your assets) and build a strategy as the game goes. Ignoring your situation in favor of a specialized, boutique strategy is asking for trouble.
Of course, this doesn't apply to the marines. Since their tech tree is so hard to balance, marines can get a lot of mileage out of gimmick strategies. Of course, these "strategies" usually get fixed when the game is patched. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->