Aliens Always Win?

ainfect · February 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">can we stop with this already!</div> guys, aliens dont always win. if you play at a server which aliens always win then you need to switch servers and stop playing with noobs. on the servers i play on its like 50-50. thats because everyone who plays there knows what they are doing. so the marines and the aliens are both good most of the time.

btw, this whole balance issue, we can squash that too. if you want a way to show that marines are the more powerful(at least if the aliens only have 1 hive <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'> ) do this:

drop 1 ip, armory. thats it. mine the doors of your base. wait for that always predictable "first rush." kill that off. find the hive. give everyone mines and mine the exits from the hive. if they run out of mines and ammo, drop another armory near the hive. kill all the aliens, or at least all that you can see. gorge might be off somewhere else. move into the hive, kill it and spawn kill the aliens.

cheap? maybe. do marines win? id say like 80% of the time we kill the hive.

absolute easiest place to do this, when aliens have maint on ns_eclipse. you get there so fast the little skull heads will spin.
dont try it on like ns_bast, too big, unless they have engine room, then might be worth a shot.
works well on ns_nothing too.

ive done that so many times lately. if you get marines that listen just a little it will work. its really not the best game ever, but it will show you that marines can win really easily.

you could also try the ol' fashion HMG rush:

1 ip, armory, upgrade to HMG, get 1 more res node. defend that res node and base. wait for hmgs, drop as many as you can. send the entire squad to the hive, everyone, people with and without HMGs.

if you can cover the shooters you will win. its suprising how many people will start to fortify the 2nd hive but not the first. usually you can walk right on in. another strat i get about 80% wins with.

let me know what you guys think.

Tempus · February 2003

Public server, full of n00bs = Aliens win most of the time.

Private server, experienced players = Marines win most of the time.

Tired of seeing Aliens win all the time? Go to <a href='http://www.tacticalgamer.com' target='_blank'>Tactical Gamer</a> and submit an application for the private NS server. There the game is played right.

The marines don't need to rush to win. They can hold one hive, gather resources, tech up, and then wipe the map clean. That's the fun way to play.

ainfect · February 2003

trust me, the game is played right on our server. i make sure of it, im an admin/clan leader.

but you are absolutely correct <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

i might just apply for a second place to play to meet new non-noob NS players <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

thanks!

Narfwak · February 2003

Problems such as these will not be fixed "already." They will be fixed eventually, in the process known as "patching." Whining will also not fix these problems. The development team are a bunch of geniuses, and <i>will</i> make this an excellent game. All you need is patience.

DrSuredeath · February 2003

:|

killswitch · February 2003

I don't know what you're talking about. Marines always win when I play. But then again there are 26 players on the server. So maybe the problem ISN'T the strategies they use but that evenly matched teams are unbalanced by the number of players on the team.
I hope 1.1 lives up to the hype.

ainfect · February 2003

i really dont care about the balance issue cause on my server we have balance. almost everyone who plays there is a reg and is not a noob to the game. im sick of reading that aliens always win/balance issues on the forums.

and yes, im ready for 1.1 just like everyone else.

MMZ_Torak · February 2003

Hey Infect, what size server do you run?

MaTT · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a][infect @ Feb 27 2003, 03:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>guys, aliens dont always win. if you play at a server which aliens always win then you need to switch servers and stop playing with noobs. on the servers i play on its like 50-50. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
It more like 80-20 to the marines on one of the servers I play on because you simply HAVE to be a good player to play there... You get kicked if you dont play as a team player or disobey orders from your commander. The same goes for the alien team if you go gorge against the whole teams wishes... Its harsh but it keeps the standard of play very high! Sometimes when we play marine we like to toy with the aliens. Heres a excerpt from a game I played yesterday:-

The map was NS_Nothing and we had control of most of the map including the cargo bay foyer and powersilo hives. We had also relocacted to the cargo bay hive to make use of the 3 resource nozzles there.

COMM: Ok i think we got this game won... Do you guys wanna let them have a second hive so you can go fade killing?
MARINE1: Why?
MARINE2: LOL! >:D yes!!!
MARINE3: Heh.... yea!
MARINE4: lol comm wanna do a welder rush?
MARINE2: heh.... funny but I wanna kill some aliens..
MARINE1: Cant we just finish them?
COMM: Well we got full upgrades with level 3 armour and ammo so I thought you may aswell have some fun battling fades as HA marines?
MARINE3 (to marine1): Naaa... its more fun making them think they have a fighting chance!
MARINE3: We did it yesterday and it was hella fun!

So the commander tells everyone to leave the powersilo hive alone for a while and the proceeds to recycle the turret factory. 5 minutes later we lose control of the hive. Many of the marines then started to publically act like they we **** off that they had probably lost the game saying thigs over public chat such as 'OMG! Commander you damn noob! you lost us the game' and 'FFS! We had this game won!'. Even the commander joined in and started saying stuff like 'FFS ITS NOT MY FAULT I WAS SHOUTING AT YOU TO GO THROUGH THE PHASEGATE AND U DID FK ALL! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'> '

While all this was going on the marines were using team chat to ask for heavy armour, HMG's, grenade launchers and welders ready for an assault on the viaduct hive. Little did the aliens know the commander had told a marine player with a jetpack and HMG to hide in the rafters of the powersilo hive even before he had recycled the turret factory meaning we were getting regular reports of the alien teams progress...
JPspy: 'Comm... Theres a gorge now in powersilo'
Comm: 'lol @ fatty

JPspy: 'Comm the gorge just placed the hive'
Comm: 'Ok tell me when it deploys aswell'

JPspy: 'Hive is up'

Meanwhile the rest of the marines, six of us including me with a grenade launcher, had been kitted out and were on their way through the vent leading from cargo hive towards viaduct...

JPspy: 'I think one of the alien is gestating to a fade.... taking long time'
JPspy: 'Yup.... fade! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>'

We had now reached the Resource node at the bottom of the vent which had beeen capped by the alien team but the commander ordered us to hold fire and wait around the node.

JPspy: '2nd fade gest....i think'

Then at that moment a fade appears at the cargo bay hive and another wanders around the corner from the viaduct direction...

Comm: 'GOGOGO!'
Comm: 'ATTACk!!'

We then sprang into action. The fade that comes around the corners immediately comes under a hail of fire and doubles back the way he came jumping like a mad man trying to get away. But We manage to bag the fade and proceed onto the viaduct hive.... The fade attacking the Cargo bay hive dissapears, probably to come and defend the viaduct hive! We reach the first ladder leading down the the hive when a fade comes from the powersilo side entrance and starts spamming acid rockets at us! We return fire but notice a few acid rockets coming from behind us. Surrounded by two fades we start firing at the nearest one. I quickly fire my grenades at the wall behind the fade in a way so that they rebound around the corner. The fade weakened by HMG fire retreats around the corner only to die under the mass of explosions created by my 4 grenades. We then turn on the other fade firing from the other direction so I fire 4 grenades as close as I can get them. This time its me who weakens the fade and one of my team mates with a HMG who caps the fade just as its about to go around the corner! We then take a short weld and health stop to patch ourselves up welding a skulk in the proccess before carrying on down the ladder to the hive and taking it out!

Comm: 'Ok... Finish the other hive off mr jetpacker! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>'

The Jetpack spy then unleashes his HMG on the last hive and kills it with his second clip... 1 min 30 second after killing the viaduct hive we were all back in the ready room laughing our arses off whilst half the alien players left the server! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

coil · February 2003

That sounds almost as fun as IP camping, Matt.

Da_Sarge · February 2003

NS is so dynamic, you can't really say one side always wins over the other. So many factors change the gameplay that makes it impossible to really know which side is better. I guess that means that the game is about as balanced as it can get.

Vash · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a][infect @ Feb 27 2003, 10:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> guys, aliens dont always win. if you play at a server which aliens always win then you need to switch servers and stop playing with noobs. on the servers i play on its like 50-50. thats because everyone who plays there knows what they are doing. so the marines and the aliens are both good most of the time.

btw, this whole balance issue, we can squash that too. if you want a way to show that marines are the more powerful(at least if the aliens only have 1 hive <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'> ) do this:

drop 1 ip, armory. thats it. mine the doors of your base. wait for that always predictable "first rush." kill that off. find the hive. give everyone mines and mine the exits from the hive. if they run out of mines and ammo, drop another armory near the hive. kill all the aliens, or at least all that you can see. gorge might be off somewhere else. move into the hive, kill it and spawn kill the aliens.

cheap? maybe. do marines win? id say like 80% of the time we kill the hive.

absolute easiest place to do this, when aliens have maint on ns_eclipse. you get there so fast the little skull heads will spin.
dont try it on like ns_bast, too big, unless they have engine room, then might be worth a shot.
works well on ns_nothing too.

ive done that so many times lately. if you get marines that listen just a little it will work. its really not the best game ever, but it will show you that marines can win really easily.

you could also try the ol' fashion HMG rush:

1 ip, armory, upgrade to HMG, get 1 more res node. defend that res node and base. wait for hmgs, drop as many as you can. send the entire squad to the hive, everyone, people with and without HMGs.

if you can cover the shooters you will win. its suprising how many people will start to fortify the 2nd hive but not the first. usually you can walk right on in. another strat i get about 80% wins with.

let me know what you guys think.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Lame strategies. What's the point of playing NS to win a game in 2 minutes? Not very fun...for either team.

playerhater · February 2003

I was one of the peeps that used to think the game was not balanced, but I now realize my error in thinking. I truley believe it is balanced. Relatively speaking, the game itself is fairly new. I think that even the public servers will show better game play with time, as everyone starts to understand the concept of team work and how the game is played in general.

I have a small 15 player server, the neat thing was that one day I decided to set the player limit up to 20 and the Marines won just about every match.. go figure!

shader · February 2003

i'm totally confused by the aliens always win posts.

where i play it's pretty much exactly the opposite unless teams are 4v4 or less.

go play marines on a 20+ player server if u keep getting beaten by aliens and there are a lack of skilled players. on big servers the res model inbalance should insure that even semi-clueless marines can slaughter the aliens as long as they realize that capturing res is more important than capturing hives, and upgrade and tech up as fast as possible. it doesnt matter if the aliens have 2 hives if u have most of the res points. b4 their hive is built u'll be sailing in with jps and hmgs to cut it to ribbons.

oh, and...mines. if u getting pwned by skulk rushes lay them round the ips, res points etc.

SoulSkorpion · February 2003

Who wins most of the time depends totally on the server. Actually, it depends on which side has the best combination of teamwork, strategic ability, and "elite" skillz. It's just that it's easier for marines to learn the skillz they need, easier for them to work as a team because they have a commander co-ordinating them and easier to deal with the strategy because only one person needs to be clued up on it (the commander). It's not impossible for the kharaa to beat even a good marine team; they just have to be co-ordinated, strategic and skilled without the benefit of centralised command. Tricky, but possible.

Morgan · February 2003

Last night I was playing in a pickup game and we had 2 games. Both games I was alien. There was hardly any point in me being there as I had about 300/400 ping on my 33k modem against about 13 other players all with under 100 pings, I was just there to learn things from them really, even though I ended up doing fairly well (in the second game anyway). First game they tech rushed us before we knew it, and fairly instantly took down our hive with an HMG rush, second game Aliens wised up a bit and played better and we actually got a good game out of it, and a win.

I used to think the game was majorly alienbiased, but I have realised yes, it does depend who you are playing the game with, although if you grab 10 total noobs all of equal skill and split them into 2 teams, aliens and marines, I can almost guaruntee Aliens will win as I think its simpler as to what you have to do.

pardzh · February 2003

Good strats, if a bit cheap like you said. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

That still doesn't solve the balance problem. The ideal game is ~30 minutes, according to Flayra, and those strats make for 5 minute games. I mentioned this in another post, and I'll mention it again.

After checking my clan's server stats, it seems that Aliens are still winning 80% of all of the matches played lately. That's a pretty paltry 20% for the Marines.

Vimstl · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|MaTT| @ Feb 27 2003, 07:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
It more like 80-20 to the marines on one of the servers I play on because you simply HAVE to be a good player to play there... </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Someone else telling me how good you are --> sweet <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

YOU telling me how good you are --> lame <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

Maian · March 2003

Interesting round of games:
On the team-fun server, during one map, marines (the team I was on) played 8 games. Every time we tried relocating. Every time it failed within 2 minutes. Sad...but hilarious <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

mRWaffles · March 2003

I am not gonna get into a balance argument all I have to say is if I get jetpack/hmg rushed as a skulk one more time today I am gonna do something... something horrible... like play awp map for hours <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Forlorn · March 2003

Marine's are unfair.

They are not so unbalenced they can cream the aliens outright, but marines have a sizable advantage over aliens.

matso · March 2003

There are some fairly simple marine strategies that has better than 90% chance of winning, given the same skill levels on both sides. Most alien wins is due to the marines not employing any of those strategies.

Eplekongen · March 2003

One thing, if the alien team has only two really good top ranking players and the marine team has moderate players, but a good comm, still the two really good aliens will get a score of about 30 - 3 before the second hive is up. Hence giving aliens the game.

This is from a public server look.

KMO · March 2003

I say that the main balance problem is that skilled, experienced players tend to go alien on pub servers, where they know that they won't be reliant on an unknown commander, or having to try to persuade armory-humpers to phase. And a couple of skilled skulks, as Eplekongen says, can totally stop the marines from securing anything.

This can occasionally work the other way, as in a game yesterday, where one very good marine ([LoG]Wass, if I recall correctly), came down to Computer Core, where I was getting ready to drop my first resource tower. He wiped out all <b>three</b> skulks accompanying me in rapid succession, then chased me down. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>

Players like that can, and often do, make all the difference to a game, but they do tend to go alien on public servers.

I think 1.04 itself is well balanced, as long as the teams are evenly skilled. The only thing I don't like is people with 100fps jetpacks who don't have to land <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'>

Shockeh · March 2003

There are (in the UK at least) a few well known single players & clans that you just know that if you join a game, they will make a difference.

I could name a few, but that'd be making their lives more annoying, so I won't. But Fellblade, you know who you are. (Whoops!)

ViolenceJack · March 2003

Yeah go on a server were all the noobs are left to go aliens, that is the only time u see marines win often.

Still the fact is mentioned that if its a server with alot of noobs, aliens always win. There somin wrong there.

playerman · March 2003

Indeed aliens don't always win, nor do marines.

But the game does have balance issues:

How often have you seen marines win from 3 hive aliens? Yes it happens. But not very often. Actually it's quite rare even if marines are fully upgraded. Aliens don't need Onos to win, it's over kill, yet they have m.
In other words: 3 hive aliens are over powered. This may be intentional, as though the devs are saying: "if the marines can't prevent aliens from getting 3rd hive, then they don't deserve to win."

Enter long and pointless end game (where the winning team often makes a point of stretching it out; "let's play with m" , "don't take out the spawn portals"). Imo this has nothing to do with "good game". Same happens if marines gain upper hand.

Why not -for a change, just to be original for once- make it swift and clean.
Or: why make the game like this in the first place; why make the gameplay so that it encourages this kind of 'shooting fish in a barrel', 'spawn raping', '0wning' or whatever you wanna call it. Many people enjoy this to no end, but it's not very good sportmanship is it?

Comparing that to the start game:
With a few marines having good aim, and the marines using the conservative strategy of mostly staying in base (during early game), marines can upgrade without much trouble. Thus they can gain adavantage without actually engaging in combat (not much anyway).

The only thing the skulks can do to make it harder on the marines is to enter marine base and make a frontal attack.
Frontal attack however is the weakest of all skulk strategies: it's ranged weapon vs no ranged weapon, it's decent health + armor vs hardly any health and armor. Skulks have no -significant- speed advantage (any slower and marines could just run away from the skulk). Frontal attack only work against marines with no good aim.
It takes just 3 or 4 bullets (un-upgraded) to kill a skulk. With good aim it takes just a fraction of a second to fire those bullets.

My point being: no amount of skulk skill can counter the advantages of the marine early in the game. Only bad aim on part of the marine can help the skulk. "get carapace" you say? Sure the marines don't mind if aliens postpone their attack until they have lvl 3 carapace...
A different skulk strategy may be better in theory: lay in ambush. But that ambush would be outside marine base, which would be just fine with the marines since they'r quite happy staying in the safety of their base and get some basic upgrades.

I'd dare to say that with a bunch of good CS players (good aim) as marines and a good comm (assuming the marines do listen to the comm), the aliens actually have no chance whatsoever.
Marines could move to the hive during the start game and kill it without much losses themselves. Once they are there a few marines can do the spaw killing, the rest takes out the hive. This would be a near perfect strategy to win the game within the first few minutes. Any aliens tryng to take out marine base would only make it easier to kill the hive.

So, even though the game is not over-all unbalanced in favor marines or aliens. It is unbalanced in favor of marines in the early game, and it is unbalanced in favor of aliens in the (3 hives) end game.
Also there is the over-all unbalance depending on team size: with two large teams the marines are favoured. with two small teams the aliens are favoured.

No matter which way i turn it, this game does have several balance issues.

And i still can't help thinking the game is marine centric (not sure if it's intentional or not). I see many more marines gloating then aliens. Those same Big Mouth Marine Heros are the first to leave when they are on the alien team and they die 4 times in a row as a skulk. Bunch of spineless sissies (hi there, "aks").
Try maintaining moral after dying like that 10 times in a row and having to wait like a full minute before getting another chance to die. Just (censored) great.

(I have to rant like this every now and again to vent frustration; the alternative would be to stop playing this game... i'm still hoping it will come to maturity sooner rather then later. yeah, like anyone cares.)

Gwahir · March 2003

clan match yesterday. We go aliens, we win as aliens, we go marines, we win as marines. Not much to say about it really.

playerman · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Morgan @ Feb 28 2003, 03:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Last night I was playing in a pickup game and we had 2 games. Both games I was alien. There was hardly any point in me being there as I had about 300/400 ping on my 33k modem  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
High ping can give you a serious advantage due to the way HL prediction works.
With a marine around the corner, just a few yards back, you can run up to him and be seen only when you'r next to him - he actually won't see you come around the corner nor will he see you running towards him.
A bit of packetloss makes it even better (no prob for you if the marine is stationary, like crouched in a vent).

Church · March 2003

uncarapaced skulks take 9 basic lmg shots to kill. Yes, ambushing is key.

ViolenceJack · March 2003

One thing though is the muzzle flash from the lmg, it makes it harder to see ur target. I have heard of ppl removing it making it easyer thats sad and cheating.

I think 3 hives shouldnt mean the end, It would be alot more fun if u actualy got to use the onos in a real battle and not just smashing up the marine base. Plus these days Fades seem to mean pretty much the end unless the marines can get a steady flow of ha/hmg or have a ha/hmg/welder group. I aint seen a steady flow of ha/hmg since v1 and u only see glauncher once in a blue moon (hardly ever) simply because there not really worth it.

tbh i think v1 was fine only real problem was the fade was abit weak they went over board with that and made all marine stuff more expensive and fades stronger, they should have tried one of them not both of em.

Aliens Always Win?

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