Starting Ns_forest

DiSSTiNCT · February 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">i need some feedback</div> I am starting a map called ns_forest, it will have rolling hills andI will try to make it a popular outdoor map, damn thisl be hard. Going from the lab enviroment will be tough and I want to know if anyone can help me with some ideas of what I can put into it. I wanted the marines to have a small start out in the forest. Type of Jurassic Park 2 theme to it, in that sense. There wil be one hive out in the forest, one compound is like ruins of a compund and a hive will be there and another will be in a compound. Well tell me what you think id appreciate it.
-Jinks

Sycophant · February 2003

Talk of outdoor maps has a tendancy to attract flame. The main reason seems to be the supposed lack of nanotech in an outdoor environment. A second reason is the Lerk/JP problem - they'll be able to fly very high, and will end up hitting an invisible bounding box.

Still, I'd love to see an outdoor map made! Think up believable solutions to those two above-mentioned 'problems', and it just might be a good map! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

gaggle · February 2003

I'll forego why I don't personally think NS is suited for open gameplay, power to you for wanting to break free from the current crop of maps. Just do yourself a favor and test out those ideas of yours. You'll find the Half-Life engine is full of limitations. Proper rolling hills is something Tribes and Battlefield does <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>, hallways and radiosity tends to be the domain of Half-Life.

So yeah, best of luck to your idea here, just test it out before comitting to four months of mapping only to find out it doesn't run.

(..fine, granted, technically speaking there was that <i>one</i> mod back a long time ago that plugged in an entirely new landscape-generation thing that allowed for open landscapes, but let's not get into that)

Anyway, just my couple of cents worth of opinions.

Uh-Oh · February 2003

Unless you're a veteran of Half-Life mapping, forget about it.

The half-life engine is a fu**king pain in the arse for mappers.

You better know how to block vis properly.

Liku · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Uh-Oh @ Feb 26 2003, 04:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> The half-life engine is a fu**king pain in the arse for mappers.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Yeah, that's true. I wanted to be a mapper, and I started to do ClockTown, from Majora's Mask. All went well, I had the bottom of Clocktower, and the Laundry Pool. Then I figured it was WAY to big. my mapping days ended with my first map. But good luck on ns_forest, it sound's good, I like Natural maps alot.

JediYoshi · February 2003

Some flaws about outdoor maps,

-turret sight
-Lerk's and JP's flying high
- Fade blinking.. ouch
-Skulks walking the skybox

Thaden · February 2003

Im new to making NS maps so, take my advice with a grain of salt.

Now, Id say to just say "poo`y" on all the people who tell you not to make an outdoor map. now, you cant expect it to get into the relese... but who cares. Your making a fun map.

I dont belive "SKY" texture can be climbed. I could be wrong, but i seem to remember testing that.

here are some suggestions:

- lots of cover. You can have nice wide open spaces, but make sure an alien can manuver that wide open area with safty from MG fire. (trenches, fallen vegatation, not fallen vegatation, dark spots, etc...

- you can look at JP`s & Lurks as a problem... or a bonus. Arial combat is somthing this game has that other mods dont. Yet all this CQB stuff wastes it. (and running into the sky doesnt take anything away from the game IMHO.. its just the way it is.) If u make pirches and alternate roots for the fliers, you can add a feel to your map that is unique and very cool. (pirches, avieries, etc)

- Compinsate the teams. Humans have range. Aliens crawl up walls. In an out door map, make routes that the aliens can use but non-jp`ers cant for humans. If you do it right, the aliens can use thir "short cuts" to more then make up for their short life expectancy in the open.

You might not get your map into regular rotation on all the servers, but it will be a map that you can play and have alot of fun in the mean time. just my 2 cents.

realityisdead · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sycophant @ Feb 26 2003, 02:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Talk of outdoor maps has a tendancy to attract flame. The main reason seems to be the supposed lack of nanotech in an outdoor environment. A second reason is the Lerk/JP problem - they'll be able to fly very high, and will end up hitting an invisible bounding box.

Still, I'd love to see an outdoor map made! Think up believable solutions to those two above-mentioned 'problems', and it just might be a good map! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I wish any sort of opposition to the idea wasn't labeled as a "flame"...

Anyway.

The big, primary reason outdoors areas are discouraged (note: <i>discouraged</i>) in NS maps is not because of a trivial excuse like unfunctional nanotech in an outdoors environment (I really don't know where that started), but because of the desire to keep a consistent theme and setting throughout the official levels of the mod... which are reliably balanced and actually function properly with the NS game mechanics. <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/MappingGuidelines.htm' target='_blank'>This</a> document will do a better job of explaining this than I ever could.

Now. I feel the need to amplify the point that outdoors areas are <i>dicouraged</i> (again, note "discouraged", not <i>banned</i>) in NS mapping, as it will not be accepted for inclusion as an official level. Doesn't mean that you <i>can't</i> make one, or that you will be subject to a mass of flames if you do so (at least, I'd hope not). Have a blast, and create whatever you want! No one will, or has the desire to, take away any sort of creativity or artistic vision from you. And, hopefully, any outdoors level that is created will be happily accepted by a large number of people, once released. It just won't ever become an official level.

realityisdead · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thaden @ Feb 26 2003, 06:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Now, Id say to just say "poo`y" on all the people who tell you not to make an outdoor map. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Bleh.

I also wish the only responses to a newcomer on the scene when he announces his desire to create an outdoors map would be met with a polite "Feel free to create the level, but it should be brought to your attention that it will not become an official map. Whether or not this was your intention in the first place, I thought it only proper to warn you." rather than what has apparently been said in the past in order to attract comments like the one quoted above (or a warning of forthcoming flames ... ).

Because I can't imagine why the words of someone who is warning another, who may not be aware of the NS stance on outdoors areas, could be spit upon.

I've seen reactions like this far too many times in previous Outdoors Mapping threads, and I'm getting sick of it.

Redford · February 2003

There will be no outdoor areas in NS offical releases, ever:

There is no arguement over this topic, that is the way it will be. Further attempts to defend this position will be met by flayra deploying a pack of rabid dingos to gnaw you into little pieces.

If you wish to "fight da system" and make an outdoor map, go straight ahead. However be warned, it won't go anywhere.

EDIT: Post changed because sYn apparently knows everything. You can make your points without being so aggrivating next time, okay?

DruBo · February 2003

It can't be an official map, due to a decision made by the dev team a long time ago. But that doesn't keep it from being a <b>good</b> map, especially when compared to the never-gonna-be-official likes of ns_misslecommand and ns_siege.

QUAD · February 2003

Now, first of all, don't take this post the wrong way. It's in no way directed towards you or any other mappers who want to make outdoor maps. I just wanted to say though, it seems people now'a'days simply want to make outdoor maps not because they think the concept to be cool, but only to spite everyone who warns against it. The simple truth is, your completley and entirley welcome to create an outdoor map, but the liklihood is it will never make an official release, because it does not follow the predetermined guidelines, and it would definatly not have the capabilities of keeping gameplay how it is supposed to be. And don't ever flame Ken or any of the others who warn you against outdoor maps, they are simply a warning that you will end up with somthing that will forever remain a third party map. If you still want to make one after hearing that, your more than welcomed to.

H4nDC4Pd · February 2003

if u wanna keep skulks from walking on the walls or air put up huge electrical fences all around the map, maybe even on the top of the map. It could be like an outdoor map in a greenhouse type enviroment.

AcKz · February 2003

Most of the people in the above post are just complete bandwagon fans. Don't listen to them. It's true outdoor maps won't make an official map right now, but if you make a really cool outdoor map with no bugs, and its very popular, I guarentee you, you can make it official.

KungFuSquirrel · February 2003

If you're doing it because it's what you really want to do, regardless of whether or not it's official, more power to you. No one can, will, or should even try to stop you. It's your decision to make; your map to construct.

If you're doing it just to spite people or prove someone wrong, I strongly recommend a different hobby.

Thaden · February 2003

People to me seem very hostile the way they push they obsess and push the polotics of the game design. The game desiners dont want outdoor maps included with the game. Good for them! It adds a theme to their game.

But, 95% of all the maps that will ever be made for this game will not be official maps. When people ask for suggestions on this board on outdoor maps, so much of an issue is made by the map idea. they ask for landscape advice he end up getting political advice.

Making SO MUCH of an issue, be it for good intentions or not, looks hostile from a new mappers perspective. And we dont want to chase them off the game. Nor do we want to change their artistic style.

Now, its nice to let them know the official stance on outdoor maps. but i dont need to count for you how many times its been said on this thread alone about how outdoor maps are bad. Pointing somthing out more then once is too many times, and is an insult to the original poster and to our community.

JediYoshi · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AcKz @ Feb 27 2003, 02:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> ...but if you make a really cool outdoor map with no bugs, and its very popular...  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Bug free - Not really

Very Popular - Yes

bobthemagicalfish · February 2003

maybe you can have it like 4 space ships have crashed 2 were civilain 1 was alien and 1 was marine and so you could have the nano the ships or have them outside like a hose conting to each ship but i dont know
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

QUAD · February 2003

"Bandwagon Fans" eh? Right, whatever you say, I mean you only joined the NS forums about a month after release, we must obey your thoughts and your clans thoughts because you are the Elite. Haefhaehfhahefhaefhaf. Anyways, KFS put it well, your encouraged to do what you want, but its our obligation to let you know of the guidelines. Thats all.

Sandrock · February 2003

I can understand the issue of the nanotech not being outdoors, but the whole jetpacks/lerks/skulks issue isn't that big. Make your outdoor map, make the 'sky' a big box that is really tall, and put a trigger_hurt way up there. You can justify it by saying there is too little oxygen way up there. And just set it so even if they tried to hit the top, they'd be dead by then anyways.

AcKz · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (QUAD @ Feb 26 2003, 09:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> "Bandwagon Fans" eh? Right, whatever you say, I mean you only joined the NS forums about a month after release, we must obey your thoughts and your clans thoughts because you are the Elite. Haefhaehfhahefhaefhaf. Anyways, KFS put it well, your encouraged to do what you want, but its our obligation to let you know of the guidelines. Thats all.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Wait, you just used my register date as a way to be "superior" over me in the same breath that you called me being an elitest. When did I tell you to obey my thoughts? Or are you reading in between the lines again..

Windelkron · February 2003

I dont relaly care for flames or whatever but has anyone thought of this:
usually when people suggest an outdoor map everyone automatically thinks of broad daylight. ever think of night? like midnight? that's atmospheric in my opinion.

Maveric · February 2003

make sure you put the letters in lower caps only, since Linux cant accept anything with a capitol letter in it (last i heard).

this is why you see:

ns_eclipse
ns_hera
ns_missilecommandv3
etc...

instead of:
NS_Eclipse
NS_Hera
NS_MissileCommandV3

so please, lower caps only.

BTW, GL on it. Is it gonna be "Predators" type movie forest/jungle or is it gonna be a woodlands forest? be sure to add in lots of skulk spots (little spots with no/little light and only skulks can enter into) and small underground tunnels so skulks can bypass marine defences easy. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> haha, getting them in the back is always good fun. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

BiTMAP · February 2003

really just shut up... both of you. OUtdoor maps can be fine for DOD, for CS, for Hostile Intent, for HLPB and HL rally... but not for NS, if you play NS and actualy think its a gOOD game and want to HELP it you would want to push the idea and the theme further not choke it by making maps that do NOT fit.

Go ahead make an outdoor map, I'll ignore it and then crie later one when its "leet" cuase its a bunch of bad brushwork with {leafygreen slapped on it and everyone runs around screeming there leetness has no bounds as they rocket into the skybrush.

*gasp*
really Guys Just FOLLOW THE GUIDELINES, there put in place for a reason.

Maveric · February 2003

awww darnit, looks like someone hasn't had fun...

All work and no play makes [BiTMAP] a dull boy.

honetsly, whats so wrong with a map thats incredably fun? so what if <i>you</i> think its crap? if 90% of the people think its crap from a <b>un-biased</b> veiw then the map <i>is</i> crap; but if only 1% doesn't like it its TB for them.

realityisdead · February 2003

I had posted here firstly to a) attempt to put a stop to any sort of hostility towards those who care to inform, or warn any newcomer of the NS stance on outdoors mapping (This has been a problem for as long as I can remember, but this post in specific looked to be my opportunity to speak up. I now regret thinking so.), and b) to ward off any hostility towards <i>the mapper himself</i>, who wishes to create the map.

The results, witnessed both in here and (moreso) in IRC, are exactly what I wanted to avoid. Exactly.

<b>Listen.</b>

Do you guys think that it is <i>at all possible</i> to stop this? All of it?

-- In the future, can it be possible to have a mapper come to the forums, announce his intent to create an outdoors map, and have <b>absolutely no</b> comments criticizing his efforts?

None of this: </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Go ahead make an outdoor map, I'll ignore it and then crie later one when its "leet" cuase its a bunch of bad brushwork with {leafygreen slapped on it and everyone runs around screeming there leetness has no bounds as they rocket into the skybrush.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> ?

No <i>yelling</i> at him to go read the FAQ, or the guidelines?

No insults?

Please?

-- In the future, can it be possible to have a mapper come to the forums, announce his intent to create an outdoors map, have someone <i>politely</i> warn or inform him of the NS stance on outdoors areas, WITHOUT a bunch of guys coming in and telling the mapper to "Not listen to them, they're all just a bunch of suckup bandwagon groupies"?

No "Let him do what he wants, it's HIS map!" ?

No warning the mapper that he's about to be flamed?

Please?

Maveric · February 2003

i can see where ur comming from ken, and i whole hartily agree. the FAQs ar<i>n't</i> the rules, its just a guide, and should be taken as one. It's not law, nor does it state that anything can just "get in". i do wish people would take it less seriously...

Anyways...
i do hope its a night map. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'> the best part of any map is atmosphere, and if you put some particle effects equivelent to fog or moving fog (just set velocities and angles... maybe too complex for the beginner. ask for help + search) in the lower areas it'd be the best place for skulks. besides, fog like effects in tunnels is ALWAYS good so marines dont know whats ahead of them, even if they have motion tracking; since if the marine can <i>see</i> you no MT sprite apears on his/her screen, even if there is a particle between you!

ahhh i love ambushes. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> dont forget ground cover IE fallen logs, shadows that look like things, shock factor, etc... as those can save skulks lives and make marines edgy/slow as they have to check *so* many corners.

JediYoshi · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Most of the people in the above post are just complete bandwagon fans. Don't listen to them</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

So.. in <i>two breaths</i> you tried to insult most of us and then made youself be more in authority of outdoor maps by telling him to not listen to our thoughts and what risks he might encounter.

Heist · February 2003

Wow.. Talk about passionate. If you really want to create an outdoor map.. go ahead. Noone is stopping you, make sure you balance it and make it free of bugs. If people like it they will play it. Take Missile Command for example. It doesn't fit the "NS" criteria and yet it's popular. Your map will just be a custom map. I think what a lot of people are trying to say is that it will be a hard task to balance it and make it "work". Natural Selection maps are difficult as it is without going outside the box.
But.. If you get it finished and it's fun to play, More power to you, I'd love to see it work. If you have any specific problems, feel free to post about them, but make sure you have searched the forums and read the FAQ's first.

Good Luck

Greedo · February 2003

Flame thread closed.

Starting Ns_forest

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