Marines In Public Games...

ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
edited February 2003 in NS General Discussion
<div class="IPBDescription">Will they ever be more pub-friendly?</div> I'm a huge fan of NS, but I'm starting to play it much less than before because on the pub servers I play on, the Aliens almost always win. Marines need both a good commander and a whole team that listens to the commander and has good aim in order to be successful, and that scenario just does not happen very often in teams of strangers.

I'm not in a clan, but I've also heard that Marines dominate in clan games because they're extremely powerful if they know what they're doing. Maybe Aliens need help in organized games, but the fact is that Aliens are already very hard to beat in your average pub game. IMHO, something needs to be added to Marines to make organization in general easier, in such a way that it doesn't help a team of experienced players that much but helps your average Marines work together. I don't have many suggestions, though I think friendly blips on the minimap would help a bit. For how technologically advanced Marines are supposed to be, it seems odd that they don't have much besides simple voice communication to stay organized.

Will any changes be made in 1.1 or future patches to address this?
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Comments

  • coilcoil Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Why not look around at some of the recent threads?

    Commmander mode is getting some serious improvements in 1.1, which will make his job a lot easier. Hopefully this will even things out for marines in pubs. There are going to be a LOT of other changes, too.
  • pdubpdub Join Date: 2002-12-15 Member: 10838Members
    edited February 2003
    this is a related question I've had in my head for a long time but never seen an answer to...

    Is NS a game being made for Clans or for Pubs?

    yah this has prolly been talked about a lot already I just never heard what the answer was. prolly cause it's un-answerable... I've always thought build a game for clan play, and the pub play will follow. I'd love to see an 80 team ladder running for NS!

    -p
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  • Frogg2Frogg2 Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4867Members, Constellation
    Im sure Flayra wants it to be succesful in both aspects.
  • gonklgonkl Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9377Members
    Bah i find that wins in NS on Pubs are almost totally dependant on the time of the week and day. When i do play 10PM ->>> The win/loss ratio is about even if you for example play around 4 pm usually due to the collective incompetence of both teams you will see a protracted game that aliens will prob win.( well noone really wins cause u play for like 2 hrs with lamers trying to build outside and **** like that) Same goes for the weekend unless an experienced player becomes comm and managed to goad/threaten/bribe his marine team to actually work for him. Of course this is to do with the average age of the players, not to say some 12yr olds aren't bad comms but you all know what i mean
  • pdubpdub Join Date: 2002-12-15 Member: 10838Members
    u make a good point gonkl... I find the key to my enjoyment is finding a good server.. usually takes a few maps and a trying a few different servers from my favorites... I have nothing against 12yr olds or newbs, but it sure would increase enjoyment if more servers had stable experienced players...
  • UlatohUlatoh Join Date: 2002-12-18 Member: 10982Members
    the whole point of the marines having commander mode is to force teamwork... the team has even said that marines die w/o teamwork, this is as it should be, everyone needs to learn to do what the comm says no matter what it is, and that'll be that. the problem is people dont listen, therefore the solution is listen, not change the game to accomidate them.
  • DeaconDeacon Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9852Members, Constellation
    IMO, difficulty should be based on the nature of the task. This insures that experienced commanders can micromanage (for, ideally, minute gains), while novice commanders can focus on a small set of well-defined global problems.

    <b>Strategic tasks should be simple and intuitive.</b> It should be easy to tech up, build structures, and organize groups to accomplish general strategic goals ("capture resource nodes in this area," "attack this hive," "defend our base and build stuff"). At this level, the commander is mostly dealing with his entire team as a single unit. At worst, he's dealing with an "attacking group" and a "defending group." He's also dealing with the map in terms of four locations: the three hives and the marine spawn.

    <b>Tactical tasks should be more complex.</b> It should be more difficult to set up a defensive perimeter, or coordinate multiple, simultaneous offensives. It should be somewhat complex to equip a specific squad with a specific gear set. At this level, the commander is interested in specific soldiers. He's also dealing with specific locations on the map.

    At present, it is not possible for a commander to ignore tactical tasks. This is bad, because it means novice commanders can easily get wrapped up micromanaging 1% of their responsibilities, while ignoring the other 99%. I'm in favor of any solution (order forms, rally points, sergeants) which frees up a commander to focus on strategic tasks.
  • AhnteisAhnteis teh Bob Join Date: 2002-10-02 Member: 1405Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    [whispers to Deacon]
    Somewhere in your post, you got turned around and started contradicting yourself. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • sqx_stalkersqx_stalker Join Date: 2003-02-25 Member: 14006Members
    The times i pick to play are usualy late at night, this is when all the older people are playing. people who actually want to work together. I consider myself somewhat a good comm. Defenetly better then average, but i refuse to do it if people dont follow my directions. That is my bait, follow my orders, or i wont comm - cos hardly anyone else usually wants to <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • DeaconDeacon Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9852Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Ahnteis+Feb 25 2003, 08:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ahnteis @ Feb 25 2003, 08:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [whispers to Deacon]
    Somewhere in your post, you got turned around and started contradicting yourself. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    ?

    My entire post can be reduced down to:
    1. Strategic tasks should be easy, and a commander should be required to complete them.
    2. Tactical tasks should be difficult, and should be optional for a commander.

    This is not the case in NS as it exists now:
    1. Some strategic tasks (sending everyone to an empty hive, for example) can be really difficult.
    2. Some tactical tasks (equiping specific soldiers with specific equipment) are pretty much mandatory.
  • SirusSirus Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8466Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    Zek, You should come to Nano-Gridlock. One of the greatest servers ;p.

    Marines win about 25% of the time. But most of the time marines lose is because the lack of a good commander.

    Feel Free to come
  • AhnteisAhnteis teh Bob Join Date: 2002-10-02 Member: 1405Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Tactical tasks should be more complex. It should be more difficult to set up a defensive perimeter, or coordinate multiple, simultaneous offensives.

    ....

    At present, it is not possible for a commander to ignore tactical tasks. This is bad<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Tactical = complex. Should be difficult. Yet you want the comm to be able to ignore them? Doesn't make any sense to me. If you want them difficult, you should require teamwork and coordination -- and that's what the comm is FOR.

    Strategic tasks should be the ones a comm doesn't have to worry about much. The commander shouldn't have to worry as much about building and other routine tasks. He's a commander, not a workman.

    BTW, you may want to read the upcoming changes to the commander mode including things like request queues, group assignments, etc.
  • DeaconDeacon Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9852Members, Constellation
    edited February 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Tactical = complex. Should be difficult. Yet you want the comm to be able to ignore them?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yes.

    Let's imagine a hypothetical version of the commander interface, which incorporates three new features. Note that I'm not advocating these features, I'm just using them as examples:

    1. Marines can request TFs, turrets, and RTs. The commander simply has to approve the request.
    2. Marines can buy any available weapon from the armory.
    3. Marines can be assigned to a squad. The commander can select a squad leader. The squad leader can set waypoints/rally points for squad members.

    Someone stepping into the chair for the first time could now ignore placing structures, handing out equipment, and setting waypoints.

    After a game or two, our newb comm thinks "people keep asking for structures in stupid places. I'm going to turn off marine requests, and figure out where to place stuff myself."

    After a few more games, he thinks "man, these marines keep wasting all my resources on shotguns. I'm going to turn the auto-buy feature off. If someone wants a weapon, I'll stop what I'm doing and give them one."

    Eventually, he thinks "the squad leaders are nice, but my strategies are getting so complex that I can't afford to have another layer of command between me and my troops. I'm just not going to appoint any squad leaders next game."

    The idea is that you make micromanagement advantageous (to reward experienced commanders) but you don't make it required.

    Edit: As an addendum, I've seen the new commandermode features. The game is moving in the right direction here, I just think it's going to take a lot of work (and experimentation) to make the commander role accessible (but not overpowering).
  • AhnteisAhnteis teh Bob Join Date: 2002-10-02 Member: 1405Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    1. Marines can request TFs, turrets, and RTs. The commander simply has to approve the request.

    More confusing then just having them say "TF here please" IMO.

    2. Marines can buy any available weapon from the armory.

    Removes commander control, allows for llamas to ruin game, kills ability of comm to save for upgrades, outfitting whole team.

    3. Marines can be assigned to a squad. The commander can select a squad leader. The squad leader can set waypoints/rally points for squad members.

    Now you want MORE commanders. In a game that is balanced with 8 players per side, sub-commanders aren't needed.

    Basically, it looks like you want to either play in huge servers or remove the need for a comm. Your marine team is sounding more and more like a human version of the kharaa. What is the comm doing if the team is choosing where to build and setting their own waypoints?

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Someone stepping into the chair for the first time could now ignore placing structures, handing out equipment, and setting waypoints.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The first *2* are "strategic" tasks according to your definition while the last *1* is "tactical". Yet you say you want to remove tactical tasks from the commanders workload.
  • DeaconDeacon Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9852Members, Constellation
    edited February 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--Ahnteis+Feb 26 2003, 12:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ahnteis @ Feb 26 2003, 12:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Assorted arguments against the features I mentioned<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <!--QuoteBegin--Deacon+Feb 25 2003, 11:42 PM PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Deacon @ Feb 25 2003, 11:42 PM PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Note that I'm not advocating these features, I'm just using them as examples:<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I guess I should have put that in bold or something.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Basically, it looks like you want to either play in huge servers or remove the need for a comm. Your marine team is sounding more and more like a human version of the kharaa. What is the comm doing if the team is choosing where to build and setting their own waypoints?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Providing high-level guidance, like "we should attack cargo hive" or "we need to capture more resources." Determining what tech should be researched, and how resources should be divided. Selecting people to delegate leadership roles to, and monitoring their performance. <b>Note that this is the role of a brand new commander, who is new to the role. More experienced commanders should be able to expand their role to include all the capabilities of the current NS commander. I am NOT saying "let's nerf the commander."</b>

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The first *2* are "strategic" tasks according to your definition while the last *1* is "tactical". Yet you say you want to remove tactical tasks from the commanders workload.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I think assigning specific waypoints for marines qualifies as "At this level, the commander is interested in specific soldiers. He's also dealing with specific locations on the map."

    Edit: stupid typos.
  • Boy_WonderBoy_Wonder Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8226Members
    Its all about practice... in order to be a good commander or a team mate you just need to have experience and practice. I am naturally very good at being commander due to playing many games of star craft and war craft 3. Just like in star craft if you go up against the experience they will whip you... but if you just practice a lot you can kick butt too
  • ArdescoArdesco Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7831Members
    The reason that the commander makes or breaks pub games is due to the sheer amount of information he has to handle in order to ensure that his team does well. Not only that, but he also has to effectively use the information he gets to communicate with his soldiers. If a comm can't order his marines around and use an effective plan, he and the rest of his team are doomed.

    Also, marines in general on pubs could use some aiming lessons...
  • Boy_WonderBoy_Wonder Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8226Members
    4 things that should help you be a great commander:

    1. Never give up hope! A lesson learned from the two towers =)

    2. Concentrate all your attention and be recourceful in this game. I know that some of the commanders are slightly distracted by real life. You don't want to have a 1/2 afk commander. Even when you think you are thinking hard, think harder you can do more things then you can possibly imagine.

    3. Be friendly, your marines will love you. Adding comments like good job or way to go, will surely win their heart in battle.

    4. Be strict, if your marines don't listen to you, demand, and if they still don't listen pay less attention to them!
  • SoBe_DragonSoBe_Dragon Join Date: 2002-12-04 Member: 10465Members
    pubs will be pubs...my best suggestion is to stick to one pub and get to know the regulars there...gets friends with them and play with em all the time. When I started playing Ns, I joined the LGSO server and I havent joined another one since. I learned everything i know as commander just in playing in one pub.

    Average marine pubs prolly have h4x0r-strike installed and are playing it all the time....so you're marines wont be anything more than CT's without their precious M4's. Dont expect them to listen or be able to perform for you when you need something done. Sad but true...
  • bobertoboberto Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6306Members
    I think you've got some really good ideas Deacon, as far as differences in commander experience and being able to stay on a level playing field. Some sort of offline, repeatable commander tutorial would also be a great help. However some of the ideas are just too damn hard to implement right now, but who knows, they could get there some day. However I get the feeling NS would be more suited to getting its own engine and becoming a commercial game with all these improvements... although I suppose its well on it's way to becoming valve supported.
  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    edited February 2003
    In most cases I usually play alien. Not necessarily because I like it, but moreso because all the other players are humping the 'join marine' door and I don't see the need to make matters worse.

    However, when I play on the marine team in pubs, it sickens me. There is just SO LITTLE teamwork, that the game is just not fun.

    The problem is not with the commander either. As much as the commander may be good, you can be the BEST commander in the world and you will lose if your team doesn't listen.

    So the marine problem is not with pubs themselves, but the MENTALITY of the majority of players on the pubs. Let's be honest here. There are not many mods that put THIS much of an emphasis on teamwork to the extent that teamwork is essential to winning.

    On CS pubs (OMG he said the CS word!! <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> ) you don't really NEED teamwork. Individuals that are highly talented can make up for lesser talented individuals. It's the same with many other mods.

    However on NS teamwork is the cornerstone of the marine team. Without it, you lose. Period.

    My observations has seen that many marine players on pubs just do not understand that you MUST work as a team. They do their own thing regardless of any suggestions by people to do otherwise.

    Look at the facts though. Aside from 'winning', is there any INCENTIVE for marine players to work together? Let's keep in mind that many players are selfish. If there is no DIRECT benefit to working together then they won't bother.

    What I think we need to do is provide a DIRECT yet INTANGIBLE benefit to the marines. To me I think the best way would be through the scoreboard. This is not what you think though.

    By using the scoreboard, we can appeal to the egos of the marine players. I know the devs don't want the scoreboard to be used, but I would rather use the scoreboard since it is a 'free' way to reward marines. I would rather do this instead of providing an 'in game' benefit. (which they don't really need)

    Possible scoreboard alternative: (pub servers only)

    Give kill credits for: (positive)
    -Team hive kills: A group of 3+ marines that kill a hive with GUNS get +5 kills
    -Base defence kills: A marine gets a +1 credit for a kill if he is in range of an active TF or CC (even if alone)
    -Teamwork kills: A marine gets a +1 credit for a kill if he is in a group of 3 or more

    Give NO credit for: (neutral)
    -Kills in groups of 2 or when alone
    -Kills by mines
    -Kills by welder

    Give negative credit for: (negative)
    -punish incompetence: Should a marine with a 'good' weapon (HMG etc) die WITHOUT a kill, they get a -1 kill credit
    -punish rambos: For each death when ALONE give the marine a -1 kill credit

    As a potential option, you could even 'punish' those with really bad scores (-10 or more) by increasing their spawn time. If a player with a -10 score dies, they are LAST to spawn. All other players with a positive score would spawn ahead of him, even if they died afterwards.


    This is just a basic idea, but I think you get my drift. If you had a scoring system like this I guarantee that people would be falling over one another to go out in groups of three or more. Also, with a negative score you would find that rambos would QUICKLY learn to stay together. It would also give commander the chance to see who is a 'team player' and who isn't.

    Anyway, I know we don't want to get into kill boards, but I think a board that only records kills for TEAMWORK would encourage teamwork.

    My 2 cents anyway...

    Regards,

    Savant
  • ZdrozZZdrozZ Join Date: 2003-01-11 Member: 12158Members, Constellation
    so i get punished for rushing fades alone while the whole team hides in the base?
  • ShockehShockeh If a packet drops on the web and nobody&#39;s near to see it... Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    /me weeps for last night, where I played Zeshin as alien 'comm' and me comming marines.

    I gave them ALL HA/HMG/Welder AND Lev 2 both, and they managed to get themselves butchered by Fades.

    No, I don't think Fades are overpowered. I think my marines were ramboing idiots.
  • GolGolGolGol Join Date: 2002-04-17 Member: 465Members
    What I don't like about the pub servers are the clan people, they always think they are better than everyone else, and when they get killed they moan and **** more than anyone else. That's why I want to join a clan <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • Crazed-OneCrazed-One Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7027Members
    edited February 2003
  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    <!--QuoteBegin--ZdrozZ+Feb 26 2003, 06:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZdrozZ @ Feb 26 2003, 06:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> so i get punished for rushing fades alone while the whole team hides in the base? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You get punished if you rush out and die alone, yes. That's the idea.

    Tell me this folks... Would you be MORE or LESS likely to go out alone if you knew dying alone would give you a -1 kill?

    Methinks people would AVOID going out alone and would wait and go out in groups.

    Isn't that what we WANT?

    Regards,

    Savant
  • AhnteisAhnteis teh Bob Join Date: 2002-10-02 Member: 1405Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    I wouldn't care at all about the stupid score. I prefer to have a team win.

    And you missed the point of that post. Hiding in base while fades spam your spawn is the worst thing to do yet many marines do it. Sometimes you have to rush out, even if alone, in order to kill the fades/show the rest of your team what it means to "grow a pair".
  • SycloneSyclone Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10574Members
    ** eyes are too tired to read all this :/ **
  • shadershader Join Date: 2003-02-07 Member: 13247Members
    if u want a pub game where the marines usually win, play on a server with 20+ players.

    the current res model is so unbalanced that the marines can only lose on these servers if they are clueless.

    but dunno, sounds like the situation is different in america - in aus, and on the servers i usually play on (Gamearena), its not uncommon for 90%+ of the players to be clanners or hard-core regulars, and complaints about marines being underpowered make no sense at all in that situation.
  • Mythr1lMythr1l Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12772Members
    i find the best way to play ns, if not in a clan is to find a public server, and stick to it. Jolt 03 is my one, i know almost all the regulars on it and there are usually 5-10 of us on at peak times, making games great fun. i couldnt imagine going and playing a game with a bunch of strangers tho. my advice is find a server with friendly people, and become a regular there.
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