Why Do The Kharaa Win More
KingKupo
Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9785Members
Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9785Members
<div class="IPBDescription">often?</div> altough i was gone for a time from NS(i'm picking up again) i have noticed a large difference. first off all, the Kharaa players are no longer the weak team that loses 70% of the time, now they manage to win most of the games with only two hives. the 'rines seem to get an entire fanclub that whines about being beaten by Kharaa. turret farms are lesser in numbers altough a noobish commie will still do this with every node he has(i even once had a commie that relocated the base all the time, first to some sewer and then to reception and didn't build armory). and yess, i sometimes play marines mostly because losing with Kharaa is harder. another thing is that Kharaa players start to boss around others and say things like: hey pudgy, get your worthless **** over here(i say mostly say: hive clear gorge, get your lazy **** here NOW) and: OMG take the atmosphere precessing NOW or we lose(my answer is: DUDE i am at a hiveroom which he answers back: WE DON'T NEED A HIVE) and the use of voice chat is not really usefull(there sure are alot of British playing NS) since i can't understand it. according to me, the Kharaa are geting more skilled what do you think? <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> VS <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
if you stop the marines from moving a single step out if their place... then you dont need a second hive.
They deserve a gorge rush.
Suddenly marines made a big rush in to our hives through those vents while we were trying to destroy their base. Nameless went down in few second, then subspace and we were like WTF?
Few minutes later they rushed in port engine and game over...
Map changed to ns_eclipse and again we had two hives and few fades. Then they made another jp/hmg rush and one hive down (from computer core) and few minutes later mainentance went down too....game over
Well web was only weapon against those flying ****, but we started to use them bit too late.
And in many public games gorges doesn't use webs for protecting hive, so those jp rushes are very effective
And if marines manage to upgrade weapons to level 3 and get some armor upgrade too, it is actually pretty hard to kill a group of LMG marines. And if they have hmg.... <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
For instance, it is much harder for a team of complete strangers with no voice comm and a bad attitude to win against a group of people who have been playing NS together since the first day, most have voice comm, and generally have the "Lets Go Kick Their Bums" attitude.
Voice communication is key for this mod, almost, as for marines, it's a bit challenging for the commander to read and drop items for the marines, so you get his attention much easier using voice comm. Not that saying "Hey Comm, I need HA/HMG and welder" 3 minutes into the game. Same with reminding them what to do all the time. That just frustrates the heck out of them.
The Kharaa do have the advantage in the communications area. Hive sight is a wonderful thing. If you get a good team of skulks with a good leader for the team, who notifies everyone to "Tag em before you bag em", you can always tell where the marines are heading, even if your skulks do fail at taking them out initially. Also, you are notified fairly early when you hive is under attack. You don't get any initial voice saying "You hive is under attack", but for me, that big red flashing thing in the top right corner of my screen is plenty enough to say "I need a Lerk and 2 fades at Feedwater, NOW".
There's also the "Aura of a leader", that has to occur. If you sound like you know what your doing, and don't reply to a question like "Where do you want to go?", don't sound like "Well, um, I don't really know, uh...how bout...no...that won't work, umm...lets see", people aren't going to listen to you, since you don't seem like you know what your doing, and so forth.
So, the key factor is probably the realisation that the Kharaa pobably have the communication advantage, over the marines.
Of course, you can blame it on Fades, or Carapace, but it's the teamwork that's probably nailing you, and you don't even realise it. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
i have noticed that marines are winning more often on the pub servers i play (mostly jp/hmg ****), but as before, it is mostly related to the maps. Most maps are off balanced so that there is a 80% chance of knowing which team will win just by knowing which hive the aliens start at. The 20% is to compensate for bad gorges/commanders and undefended bases that die from a rush.
The most balanced maps by far are ns_caged and ns_tanith. Maps like ns_nothing (unless aliens start in cargo bay) and ns_eclipse (unless aliens start at computer core) tilt heavily towards the marines. ns_nancy (unless start at vent 3c) and ns_bast (unless start at engine room) tilt heavily towards aliens.
I have noticed more teamwork for the Kharaa and less rambo'ing for the marines. The only thing that makes me angry is the hmg/jp **** and gorges who don't use webs or build defense.
I agree with those maps.
I think that ns_hera is also pretty balanced, if aliens just remember to protect processing room. Well all of those hives are in big room ---> good for jp/hmg, bad for aliens, but with web that problem is solved...
On small servers, aliens dominate. Level 3 upgrades for a marine cost 120r per upgrade, plus a 50r investment for an arms lab, straight up. For an alien, they cost 42-30 + 2 res per alien and serve an alternate purpose.
Level 3 weapons/armor cost 290 res for the marines. If you count building 2 hives and 3 chambers of each kind, it costs 274 res + 6 per alien. If you just go with 2 hives and def/movement, it's 164 res, almost half of what it costs the marines.
If they were to JUST provide upgrades, they'd be about even. But alien upgrades provide important alternate features (Advanced evolves, heals, instamovement).
On a 16 player server, 8 per team, with 2 hives and full movement + def, if each alien dies 4 times (Figure skulks die more, gorges die less) the alien team has lost 128 res, bringing the total up to 292.
Add in the fact that they can do that sooner then the marines, and the aliens win the upgrade war.
Now, look at a 24player server, 12 per team. Now if they all die on average about 4 times, you're at 356 resources. 50 resources is enough to cap a node and put some defenses up, and that's not a lot of deaths for skulks. Drag that game out for an hour, aliens are sitting several hundred res behind the marines.
Now look at having multiple HA in an area compared to multiple fades.
Multiple HA heal themselves better. Multiple fades block each other's shots and end up hurting themselves.
I've heard there's a happy medium in an 18 player server, but havn't had a chance to check it out.
You'll also notice, 1v1, a marine will lose a good 75% of the time with equal upgrades. Now, make it 3v3, marines are winning 75% of the time. Now make it 8v8 with a bunch of welders and ammo spam from the comm. If the aliens were to somehow get 8 onos together to charge them, they'd be so big they'd have to come alone and be shredded 1 by 1 by 1.
To prove this even more, on Voogru's servers, 22 people, marines win over 50%, but not by too much.
On his servers, the nades have been reduced in damage by 40%, an aliens have been given a lot of spiffy abilities. Still nothing stops a bunch of marines with HA+GL+welders.
On a 16-player server (as in your example), Aliens have to fill up 7 (being optimistic) 33RP sinks before their Gorge gets 100% of the incoming RP. That takes 330RP total, of which the Gorge sees 99. Enough to get up three upgrade chambers and a couple of OCs or a RT, or one upgrade chamber and a Hive. And that's not even counting Gestate or Upgrade costs.
On the other hand, the Marines get ALL of that 330RP into one place, while the Aliens wait for the Gorge to put SOMETHING up. Whack off 290RP for that full Weapons/Armor 3 and the Arms Lab cost, and you've still got 40RP to play around with, or roll in. You get the idea. Heck, you could toss in some pocket change, and have enough for a second Arms Lab to tech up even faster.. one working on the Weapons upgrades, the other dealing with the Armor.
So y'see... the reason Marines tend to win on large servers *is* because they have superior firepower. At least in part. The OTHER part is that the Gorge is waiting for all his Skulks to get into overflow so he can really get building... and praying that no one of the 15 other people on his team are STUPID enough to go Lerk right off the bat. (No pun intended)
good aliens can beat good marines and good marines can beat good aliens
The Aliens have a distinct advantage on many maps. Skulks move faster than Marines, climb walls/ceilings, go into vents for faster transit cross-map. Aliens can see when Marines plink things or are attacking res nodes (whereas Marines have to be told by the Commander that they need to go somewhere to help defense) and respond instantly. Aliens inherently can survive longer on the field with passive abilities such as Regeneration (Marines require Commander/other Marine attention for medpacks and welding). Any map where there are no significant "control points" (i.e. spots where a significant number of res nodes are within easy access to defend), Marines are under a disadvantage because they have to spread out their defense (Marines) and the Aliens can respond and act faster than the Marines can. Marines lose a lot on Caged and Eclipse, but win a lot on Nothing and Tanith. A really hot Marine or Alien team will still pull the day, but pit equal skills and it can be very map dependent.
Caged balanced? I dunno about that. A huge vent system that lets you get pretty much anywhere you want if you know what you are doing? The Marine start is about a 1/3rd of the map length from ANY other resource points? A vent to Marine Start that you have to truck 1/3rd of the map to weld close? Hives that are easily webbed to prevent JP/HMG rushes? Ventilation is the ONLY hive that has a res tower in the same room? Sorry I disagree. Caged puts the Marines at a disadvantage. None of the res towers are particularly easy to get to or defend (which means either hoping they don't get eaten within two minutes of being put down, or wasting res placing turret defense that will still get eaten through).
On small servers, aliens dominate. Level 3 upgrades for a marine cost 120r per upgrade, plus a 50r investment for an arms lab, straight up. For an alien, they cost 42-30 + 2 res per alien and serve an alternate purpose.
Level 3 weapons/armor cost 290 res for the marines. If you count building 2 hives and 3 chambers of each kind, it costs 274 res + 6 per alien. If you just go with 2 hives and def/movement, it's 164 res, almost half of what it costs the marines.
If they were to JUST provide upgrades, they'd be about even. But alien upgrades provide important alternate features (Advanced evolves, heals, instamovement).
On a 16 player server, 8 per team, with 2 hives and full movement + def, if each alien dies 4 times (Figure skulks die more, gorges die less) the alien team has lost 128 res, bringing the total up to 292.
Add in the fact that they can do that sooner then the marines, and the aliens win the upgrade war.
Now, look at a 24player server, 12 per team. Now if they all die on average about 4 times, you're at 356 resources. 50 resources is enough to cap a node and put some defenses up, and that's not a lot of deaths for skulks. Drag that game out for an hour, aliens are sitting several hundred res behind the marines.
Now look at having multiple HA in an area compared to multiple fades.
Multiple HA heal themselves better. Multiple fades block each other's shots and end up hurting themselves.
I've heard there's a happy medium in an 18 player server, but havn't had a chance to check it out.
You'll also notice, 1v1, a marine will lose a good 75% of the time with equal upgrades. Now, make it 3v3, marines are winning 75% of the time. Now make it 8v8 with a bunch of welders and ammo spam from the comm. If the aliens were to somehow get 8 onos together to charge them, they'd be so big they'd have to come alone and be shredded 1 by 1 by 1.
To prove this even more, on Voogru's servers, 22 people, marines win over 50%, but not by too much.
On his servers, the nades have been reduced in damage by 40%, an aliens have been given a lot of spiffy abilities. Still nothing stops a bunch of marines with HA+GL+welders. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree, in small, small games, like 3vs2 (with Marines having the balance) I think its so much easier to be Marine.
GirDraxon: Exactly. Caged is balanced, so long as the Marines don't rely on lame JP/HMG rushes to win, and actually have a decent Commander, instead of one who leans on that strategy as a huge crutch. It's NOT the only way to win. It's just the EASIEST way for newbie Comms, or if you're up against clanners. I'm hoping that JP/HMG gets KILLED in 1.1, so all the Comms but me will be helplessly flailing around as their one-note-song is taken away because it makes the game too freaking repetative.
And i hope jetpacks get nuked too. We had such a nice game on caged, where we JUST got 2 hives up, after a huge struggle vs the marines. It would have been a wicked Fade vs Marine game IF they didn't get 2 rambo HMG/jetpacks and kill our hive.
the only unbalanced map is tanith. the marines get to any hive within a minute and can secure them very easily. alot of rushing on this map and the 'rines extra advantage is their distance to waste-handling, sat comm, fusion reactor and a room with two nodes.
i suddenly remember a nice map i played in the first versions as a noob 'rine(a week after the release i was a noob), can't remember the name but the 'rines started out in an area called computer room and there were two elevators close to the 'rine spawn to get down. can you tell me the mapname if you recall?
Or what about skulk that climb up to impossible to reach places with any other alien, gorge, and build lots of stuff there? Without jetpacks lots of times it's impossible to kill those chambers (seige cannons have a limited vertical range)
One Think the main problem with marines is there defense. I think marine turrets need to be sort of redone and sort it so mines dont get blowen up by acid rockets and stuff. Force the aliens to sacrifice a life to open a passage way <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> also u would need a limit to an area if that isnt already done.
One Think the main problem with marines is there defense. I think marine turrets need to be sort of redone and sort it so mines dont get blowen up by acid rockets and stuff. Force the aliens to sacrifice a life to open a passage way <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> also u would need a limit to an area if that isnt already done. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, I bet they are 30 player servers.
But seriously, most of the lopsidedness comes from player based resource model. I'm not going to lie, there is a bad marine losing trend.
EDIT: Caged can be won by relocating to the center of the map. There are two free nodes there and all hives are just around the corner.
I believe that the resource model wont work as it stands.
The teams are unbalanced at certain stages of the game and of course, the team with the upper hand at that point will (or should) use it to their advantage. This isnt made any easier with some poor map layouts.....
I think we need an Alien commander or hivemind that gives out resources like the Marine commander - and develop the game from there. Otherwise we are always going to have these discussions. Each new patch will bring a new set of problems and new ways to get round them. (Ok normally but made unfair by the imbalances at certain stages of a game)
Yes some maps are unbalanced. Especially those with grouped or close together res nodes. I think that maps can give massive advantages to one team or the other.....
I think larger maps favor the Aliens. Marines just cant run that fast. (Yes I know about Phase Gates. But a 5 skulk rush can take one down in no time -even with turrets defending.
I love NS and I play both sides and usually go random team - Unless ive been on the same team for a few rounds. So Ive seen it regularly from both sides.
Just my opinion!! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Lookin for yours......
#C
I always feel weird about quoting myself but I would rather post here than link the original thread:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Another thread got me interested as to the percentage of wins on my servers. As I have an aversion to stats, I haven't checked how things are going until today.
I pulled the logs from all 3 of my servers down locally (hate adding more cpu load on the servers) and ran them with interesting (to me) results.
Almost every game I get in to, I watch people pile into the Marine portal as though its the only team they can play. I figured that meant that the Marines typically win...
Wrong.
Actually, the Aliens win about 70% of the games on my 2, 18 person servers. Some maps that I always thought were good for the Marines are exactly the opposite.
Hera for example; Aliens win 68% of the time. I've always considered this a Marine map with "Central Processing" being the key.
Remember, all 3 are public servers so the abilites may vary. I do have quite a few excellent regulars and the skill levels are improving all the time.
H2O-4 18 person
Bast Marine: 22.50%
Caged Marine: 24.30%
Tanith Marine: 26.17%
Hera Marine: 31.18%
Nancy Marine: 31.97%
Eclipse Marine: 36.82%
(didn't have nothing in the cycle... fixed now)
H2O-5 18 person
Eclipse Marine: 36.82%
Hera Marine: 31.18%
Tanith Marine: 26.17%
Nancy Marine: 31.97%
Bast Marine: 22.50%
Caged Marine: 24.30%
On my 30 (now 24) person server, the Marines have an advantage (probably due to respawn rates).
H2O-7 30 person (now 24)
Hera Marine: 46.53%
Tanith Marine: 48.04%
Bast Marine: 48.15%
Caged Marine: 60.00%
nancy Marine: 61.17%
Nothing Marine: 70.87%
Eclipse Marine: 71.70%
Im going to make some small changes (thru plugins) to help out the Marines *slightly* and see where things go... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->