Should Model Skins Be Legal In Games?

KboTKboT Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9436Members
Hey everyone, I just wanted to get a Discussion started about this Topic which really bothers me.

Ok the Question is: Should Model Skins be Legal?

I'm taking about Skins that can make Hostages In Counter-Strike look like Brintey Spears, Sniper's in Day of Defeat look like Giant green Glowing Blobs, Skulks in Natural-Selection look like Rats, etc...

I think this brings a great Disadvantage to the games.

For Example: If I make a skin in Day of Defeat that makes all Snipers look like a Giant green-glowing guy than that will give the hidden sniper a great Disadvantage! That goes for any game where taking Cover is important. Although Natural-Selection is probly the least affected game to these Skins It really does make a difference to a game like Day of Defeat where taking cover in the shadows will keep you alive and greatly help you win.

Well please give me your feedback, -KboT

Comments

  • CyborgguineapigCyborgguineapig Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3233Members
    Yes I do agree that custom model modification is an exploit and that it ruins gameplay. But "sigh" who has the voice to stand against people who make such models since nobody cares these days, they get away with it, simple as that. It does really inspre me to become the worlds greatest hacker in the future just so I can fry someones motherboard when they have a cheap advantage over me in gameplay.

    It actually pisses me off greatly, but like I said, what can be done about it. All I can do is cry <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • Hologram0Hologram0 Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9303Members, Constellation
    Isnt it possible for games to hard code modles? obviously the devs have some control over it, i mean if they put some sort of code that made the files have to look identical to some set parameters. (file sizes, Hight, width)

    Im no programer but it seems quite possible or maybe Hl's aging engine doesnt support it.
  • Marik_SteeleMarik_Steele To rule in hell... Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9466Members
    For serious competitive play (CPL level or so) models do matter. So does hardware. That's why everyone gets the same system to play on at such high-level events, and that's why the rest of my post will refer to non-competitive play only.

    There's some games where models don't matter. Example: in Quake 3, so long as the model isn't something crazy (such as cloaked or something), it really doesn't matter if it's a Darth Vader model, Lara Croft Model, or one of the standard ones.

    In others, which may encourage some element of surprize and hiding, such as Day of Defeat, NS, or the Theif mod for UT, the model/skins are important to varying degrees. But there are 2 kinds of models: those that are made to have more polys, better textures, etc and just look better than the originals, or those that look flat-out silly to offer an advantage to the person viewing them.

    I'll use CS as an example simply because it's popular. CS-nation offers a "skin of the day" feature, where they rate models/skins and put them up for download. The ones with higher ratings do tend to look a heck of a lot better than the originals -- my favorite is a custom model for the M4 with a realistically-animated shoulder strap and a custom animation that reloads the way a real person should (instead of dropping the empty clip and carelessly slamming in the new one, it drops the empty, puts in the new one, checks both sides of the gun for defects or possible jams, etc. -- think America's Army: Operations)

    But for every good custom model for the mod, there are just as many gimmick models or models whose quasi-cheating purpose is quite obvious.

    Ideally, modellers would make a custom model and submit it to the makers of each mod for approval. If the makers of the mod accepted it, the ability to use it would be hard-coded into the mod itself. Every other custom model would just violate checks.
  • KboTKboT Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9436Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Hologram0110+Feb 12 2003, 10:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hologram0110 @ Feb 12 2003, 10:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Isnt it possible for games to hard code modles? obviously the devs have some control over it, i mean if they put some sort of code that made the files have to look identical to some set parameters. (file sizes, Hight, width)

    Im no programer but it seems quite possible or maybe Hl's aging engine doesnt support it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I agree. There should be an Easy way to put in Concreat Models
  • GreyPawsGreyPaws Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8659Members
    Why do people always think they know better than the team that spent their sweat and blood to make the games? If they wanted skulks to look like rats they would. I wish people would stop fukin with other peoples hard work.

    NO custom models should never be allowed.
  • voogruvoogru Naturally Modified (ex. NS programmer) Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1827Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation
    edited February 2003
    Custom models shouldnt be allowed.


    And there is a way to stop it already, Its just disabled on a few servers due to a small bug (which will be fixed in 1.1 i assume)


    This is an engine function related to it...
    <!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
    void pfnForceUnmodified(FORCE_TYPE type, float *mins, float *maxs, const char *filename)
    {
      (*g_engfuncs.pfnForceUnmodified)(type, mins, maxs, filename);
    }

    typedef enum
    {
    force_exactfile,   // File on client must exactly match server's file
    force_model_samebounds,  // For model files only, the geometry must fit in the same bbox
    force_model_specifybounds, // For model files only, the geometry must fit in the specified bbox
    } FORCE_TYPE;

    <!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
  • KboTKboT Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9436Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--GreyPaws+Feb 12 2003, 03:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GreyPaws @ Feb 12 2003, 03:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why do people always think they know better than the team that spent their sweat and blood to make the games? If they wanted skulks to look like rats they would. I wish people would stop fukin with other peoples hard work.

    NO custom models should never be allowed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I totaly agree! Model not only ruin the game creators hard work they may also make the game unfair
  • Spyder_MonkeySpyder_Monkey Vampire-Ninja-Monkey Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 8Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    In CS, I use totally custom player models, weapon models, and sounds. Does it give me an advantage? No. Does it look a hell of a lot better than the default install? Yes. I hated the cheesy-looking terrorist models, so I replaced them. I hated the m4 model and reload animation so much, that I *had* to replace it with the Black Hawk Down custom model. Do I have any models that look like glowing green blobs to give me an advantage in dark areas? No.

    My knife model is now skinned to look like wolverine claws. I can't hear the knife sound any better than I could, (Unlike the popular Light-Saber replacement), so I see no harm in it. If I competed competitively in CS, I'd conform to any rules that my league did, but I stand by my claim that all of these changes make the game better TO ME.
  • KboTKboT Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9436Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Spyder Monkey+Feb 12 2003, 05:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Spyder Monkey @ Feb 12 2003, 05:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In CS, I use totally custom player models, weapon models, and sounds. Does it give me an advantage? No. Does it look a hell of a lot better than the default install? Yes. I hated the cheesy-looking terrorist models, so I replaced them. I hated the m4 model and reload animation so much, that I *had* to replace it with the Black Hawk Down custom model. Do I have any models that look like glowing green blobs to give me an advantage in dark areas? No.

    My knife model is now skinned to look like wolverine claws. I can't hear the knife sound any better than I could, (Unlike the popular Light-Saber replacement), so I see no harm in it. If I competed competitively in CS, I'd conform to any rules that my league did, but I stand by my claim that all of these changes make the game better TO ME. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yes CS is probly one of the games that do not need cover. I want you to go Play some Day Of defeat and be a sniper. then Ill use a skin that makes all sniper models a bright green and then tell me if skins are fair
  • Spyder_MonkeySpyder_Monkey Vampire-Ninja-Monkey Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 8Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    I'm not arguing that it's fair for people to do so. I'm just arguing that making models unchangeable because of the 2% of the community that decides to use that exploit is over-exaggerating the problem. More good can come from custom models than bad. If not for the ability to customize, I'd have stopped playing CS a long time ago. Call me crazy, but replacing all of my skins makes it feel like a totally new game when I get bored with it. It, at least, adds a bit of spice to keep my interest.
  • GreyPawsGreyPaws Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8659Members
    man ohh man I tried to keep my mouth shut because of our previous history SM but I just cant. THERE IS ABSOLUTLEY no reason to change the default models/sounds. Its not 2% of the community its more, and again I stress what I mentioned above, if the creators of the game wanted those changes they will impliment them as well.

    If you need to change skins to feel better about playing a game, means the game aint worth playing. Nuff said CS(counter-strike the game, not anyone that could possible be named CS or any version of that) blowz! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

    Even if your new models reduce your muzzle flash bu 0.01% you already have an adavntage over someone who is not using those models. If youre using T models that look cooler, maybe they dont blend in as well giving u an advantage at distance (and I know your gunna say they dont change any of that, but thats not my point) If EVRYONE cant have access to it (meaning its not the default setting) it aint fair, same goes for key binds and scripts that dont Exist in the games GUI
  • OnumaOnuma Join Date: 2003-01-18 Member: 12428Members
    Well, the people who make the nice models and skins are really talented. They spend a lot of time on such things - and I give them credit for making quality stuff. Many times the models and skins are of a higher quality than the game originally comes with...but as far as gameplay goes they don't add any value to it. In CS a big thing is to have spiked models that jut thru the walls so you can see where they are and what team they're on, I'm sure many other games have this as well.
    The point is that if said "glowing green sniper" is hiding where he would not be seen normally - the person viewing that model has an unfair advantage over him. This is what we call "cheating" (omg he used the 'c' word!!). No matter how you look at it, it provides an unfair and unecessary advantage to the person using them, as compared to the person who uses all default things.

    For those of you who use different models for æsthetic reasons, well that's alright I suppose - but only for pub/screwaround play - they should not be used in any sort of league.
    And if you're using a model that exploits anything, damn you to hell...you should be made into a eunuch whose tongue has been severed!
  • KboTKboT Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9436Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'd have stopped playing CS a long time ago. Call me crazy, but replacing all of my skins makes it feel like a totally new game when I get bored with it<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Good point...
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you need to change skins to feel better about playing a game, means the game aint worth playing<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    ...Even better point!
  • ZiGGYZiGGY Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12479Members
    just so you know im a games purist, however im lax on changing my keys ot my standard config unlike some of my friends lol
  • Spyder_MonkeySpyder_Monkey Vampire-Ninja-Monkey Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 8Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    <!--QuoteBegin--GreyPaws+Feb 12 2003, 02:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GreyPaws @ Feb 12 2003, 02:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> man ohh man I tried to keep my mouth shut because of our previous history SM but I just cant. THERE IS ABSOLUTLEY no reason to change the default models/sounds. Its not 2% of the community its more, and again I stress what I mentioned above, if the creators of the game wanted those changes they will impliment them as well.

    If you need to change skins to feel better about playing a game, means the game aint worth playing. Nuff said CS(counter-strike the game, not anyone that could possible be named CS or any version of that) blowz! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

    Even if your new models reduce your muzzle flash bu 0.01% you already have an adavntage over someone who is not using those models. If youre using T models that look cooler, maybe they dont blend in as well giving u an advantage at distance (and I know your gunna say they dont change any of that, but thats not my point) If EVRYONE cant have access to it (meaning its not the default setting) it aint fair, same goes for key binds and scripts that dont Exist in the games GUI <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Couple things here...

    1) Now, specifically MY replacements actually make it more difficult. My terrorists don't blend in any worse, and more of my weapons are silenced because of my custom sounds.

    2) Everyone DOES have access to these things. Whether they're included with the original or not.

    Now, I'm not going to argue that replacing your models with a bright-green skin is both lame and a sort of "cheat", but mine only improve visual quality. I would never install anything that gave me a huge advantage over other players, but that's where a player's morals come into play more than anything.
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu Anememone Join Date: 2002-03-23 Member: 345Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--GreyPaws+Feb 12 2003, 08:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GreyPaws @ Feb 12 2003, 08:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you need to change skins to feel better about playing a game, means the game aint worth playing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Ohoho, lets see you back that up. You are going to play two games: Natural Selection, and Natural Selection where the models are fuzzy, unanimated blocks with low res textures and terrible sounds. They look, move, and sound like complete crap. Now tell me that it is just as fun.

    Owned by the safety pance. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • EviL_DaVeEviL_DaVe Join Date: 2003-02-06 Member: 13183Members
    lol , geting new models is fine, it makes the game alittle different and keeps you that bit more interested, now your saying that , you cant make custom models because it CAN! make it unfair, ummm ok lets say we do that , ok so there go's the unfair models, AH! but wait, why not stop making custom MAPS aswell , yer thats a a great idea i mean we dont want any new map were one team gets an advantage over the other now do we (eg assault ,italy and about 40% of the other maps) yer so letsstop that as well then <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> . if custom features had not been avalible in the game , cs would have died a long time i think , or at least have much less players, if people want to get custom models then fine , it just makes them beleave there good , i did hear some were that in the first quake 1 they used to LOWER the detail on the player setings and that made the other players stand out like a T-rex in a super market, soin every game there can be unfairness but well its not us who made the game <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
  • CrouchingHamsterCrouchingHamster Join Date: 2002-08-17 Member: 1181Members
    I think it depends entirely on your motivation for getting the custom models. If you want them to gain an unfair advantage, that's dodgy. If you simply reckon they look cool, that's fine I'd say. All leagues, tourneys etc will have mp_consistency set to "1", so what does it matter?

    I tried the black aliens skulks, for instance, and sure, being black they show up easily in bright areas, this could be seen as giving me a cheaty advantage yes? I say no, because those same models are almost completely invisible in dark areas, of which NS maps have a LOT. Balances iself out I say. As long as you arent using spiked flourescent yellow models, so what. Adds variety and interest to a game.
  • KarriNKarriN Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6617Members
    Someone said using custom models is messing with the original developers' and artists' work.

    I beg to differ.

    1. Remember that 99,99% of Half-Life's popularity right now is because of the modding community. Based on changing
    the original work. So it's kinda weird to say "you change that, you're **** on someone else's shoes!". Assuming
    that the change is cosmetic, not gameplay-changing.

    2. Many models most probably are inspired by the original work, and are a tribute to it, making the original work more,
    not less.
  • LikuLiku I, am the Somberlain. Join Date: 2003-01-10 Member: 12128Members
    I say the're totally legal. Playing games with new things is great. That's why I like PC games better than console games, because things can be changed. I seriously got bored of DoD quickly, because nothing new was happening. Once I got Editor's pack, the game was better in every way. Now the game's worth looking at. Besides there's about no percent of people using cheat models, and besides people get tired of using them anyway.
  • MedHeadMedHead Join Date: 2002-12-19 Member: 11115Members, Constellation
    My opinion:

    No modifications are needed. If any modifications are to be made, have the developers approve them, and include the modifications in the next patch. That would be the farthest I would go.

    I used to modify my games. TFC and DoD were one of my favorites to modify, and I changed all sorts of sounds and models. It didn't make them any easier to play really, and in many cases it made it harder. However, I found the reason that I modified the game was because I was bored of it, and was trying to bring the fun back in the game. It didn't work. I don't play DoD or TFC anymore. I don't even have DoD on my harddrive anymore.
  • KboTKboT Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9436Members
    Or at least make it able that there is an Optition able so you can make Custom Skins Disabled. This would help when it comes to making Tourny Servers and what not.
  • ZiGGYZiGGY Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12479Members
    Custom skins could essentially weaken the worth of the enhanced sight upgrade?
  • H4nDC4PdH4nDC4Pd Join Date: 2002-12-24 Member: 11500Members
    KboT Posted on Mar 1 2003, 02:29 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Or at least make it able that there is an Optition able so you can make Custom Skins Disabled. This would help when it comes to making Tourny Servers and what not.



    Its called File Consistency and its already implememented. If u dont like custom models, play at GWB's NS1 v1.04 server at 128.163.80.131:27015. They have file consistency on, and he has 2 other servers w/o them on. I use to use custom models, for the purpose that i liked how they look. But i took them off so i could play at servers w/ file consistency on. I mean if the original developers didnt want custom skinz why whould a put a section on it in their forums.
  • KboTKboT Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9436Members
    Ok I just came up with some thing else, Not really to do with Skins but with Sounds that come with some Weapon skins.

    If people have a gun sound for Scilenced Weapons that is loud then that will TOTALY defeat the the concept of "Silenced Weapons" because they are not "Quite" or "Silenced" they are loud! Now I don't care what ANYONE says, THAT IS UNFAIR!
  • OnumaOnuma Join Date: 2003-01-18 Member: 12428Members
Sign In or Register to comment.