Marine Game Ender

0range · February 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">we need one bad..</div> I quit 3 games today as a marine because we had 2 hives secured and could not finish it.. i would give out ha/hmg and ha/gl but the team could not finish. Then i played another where comm just gave out ha.hmg and didnt worry about nades and we had 2 hives... Both games we held 2 hives for 45 frikkin minutes and no one could end it.. As i type this i remember the nuke.. Well please add something like this in the future. Something that cost a lot of res because both times we had 400 RES! ARgh i hate ns but i keep playing it!

give marines a game ender like aliens have onos!

Question · February 2003

Nuke would be nice.

And yes,ive played such a game on nancy before,the gorgs just ran all over the place spamming OCs......when i took over comm we started getting closer to the hive room by room....then......it crashed cause of massive building spam.

OG17 · February 2003

Marine end-game is squishing one (or no) hive skulks, gorges, and lerks under HA heels (jetpacks, HMGs, GLs, etc). You're doing something wrong if that doesn't bring a quick enough finish.

Frogg2 · February 2003

Sounds like you need better marines <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

Archzai · February 2003

im not sure wut u mean.. u HAD Two hives and u lost them or the game took forever to end?? if u had HA HMG and GL... and 2 hives.. how could u not kill skulks??

i love it when marines are pretty teched up and have 1 hive and the aliens have 2 with fades.... watching those fades die due to good teamwork is awesome... but ive never won either beuase the comm ends up slowing down or the team work breaks apart <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'>

moultano · February 2003

Ive come back from games with only one hive. I did it by tower rushing. The game had been going on for 2 hours. It was one of the most fun games I have ever played, and had some of the most interesting and unique strategies that Ive ever used. Please don't take that away.

Fantasmo · February 2003

<b>Teamwork</b> is the ultimate game ender.

Solo Deathmatch and you <i>weren't</i> in the game to begin with.

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Pika-Cthulhu · February 2003

Just get your team to move as a group, dish out HMG/GL in a 3:1 ratio, 2:1 if larger groups say > 8, but at least have 2 guys with a GL at all times. and all with welders, should be able to sack any defence and hive (Order the HMG's to cover the GL when facing off against Walls of lame, and have the GL's weld the HMG's when on the move) That way, your walking welded wall of lame should get through any defence and end the game in < 5 minutes.

If your taking that much time to finish a game, then either its a small < 7 Vs 7, or your marines are not working together. No nukes for bad teamwork.

0range · February 2003

to clear things up: we had 2 hives and i left while we still had 2 hives... The server is a 12 person server and teams were 6 on 6..

i know how to move together as a group and i tell my marines too but average marines arent that smart. Not to mention the team kept splitting up.. Still aliens would never have taken the 2 hives back.. So it was up to some bumbling marines to do it. They were not complete noobs either. They were average marines against a good alien team. Its amazing we secured 2 hives.

Gwahir · February 2003

this is interesting because I just finished such a game. NS_caged. We had two hives (we had moved our base to pumping station). Most of the time was fending off sneaky attempts at building a hive under our noses. Then when the HAs and HMGs started coming in, that became easier, but WOLs were slowing us down immensely. It was rare that any HA died, we kept each other welded. Soon enough I received a gl and gave my HMG to another. The WOLs fell very quickly and we pushed all the way to their hive in little time at all. Soon enough we were in generator and nearly all our fire was laid into the hive, along with my grenades. Game over.

SoDum · February 2003

A pair of GLs don't do much against walls of 15 offense and 6 defense chambers. The clip is healed by the time you reload. I've experianced this before; because of one hive, they have pleanty of resources to turret spam. I played a game of lost the other day with some pretty good marines. After a bit of struggle we had 5 nodes, 2 hives with phase, turret farms, the whole deal, a jper flying around welding everything (oh, right, me), full upgrades, and enough resources to constantly drop ha and hmg. We finally made one stike on the hive at once, 5 ha hmgs and one ha gler, all with welders. the gler spammed, but 4 builders with healing spray plus a heck of a lot of defenses and the hive made the gls ineffective... we sent the hmgs in but to keep them alive only 3 fired, 3 welded, and life was raining on us.

Nothing moved for almost 2 full minutes of this. We focused all 6 people firing on one at a time and eventually killed a couple off... it took another 10 minutes of focusing and running back for a circle of welding before we broke past thier first line... then of course came the hiding lerk squad of 3, firing spikes out of range from ledges, then, the last wall directly under the hive which we had to kill before the hive would register enough damage. Needless to say, full upgrades vs unupgraded skulks and gorges is still long and annoying, where as the aliens fades can easily smash a base, even better with onos.

MobJustice · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>A pair of GLs don't do much against walls of 15 offense and 6 defense chambers. The clip is healed by the time you reload.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

**** lie, right there. Nothing heals 15 OCs fast enough to counter a well-placed 1600 damage salvo. Emphasis on well-placed.

EDIT: Make that 1600, he said a pair of GLs, not just one.

Ollj · February 2003

orange, learn to place sieges.

Pika-Cthulhu · February 2003

Agreed, an offensive squad of HA/HMG could cover one guy while he builds a TF and then turrets up and then gets some sieges going. All you need is one builder and the rest to cover him. And you can get up to 5 sieges ready to pour into a hive. All it takes is a few scanner sweeps (You were swimming in res) and the hive, or any defenses will die so fast its crazy. 5 sieges firing on anything will render that area a complete deathzone for any healing Gorge, passing skulk, or camping Lerk. If the walls are that thick, then get a siege base happening. Its seems that the error was not in the game,but rather on the players and commanders shoulders (No Offence really, but hell, there are plenty of ways around it. And if sieging that last hive is lame, Would you prefer to have your men spend the next 15 minutes fighting through Walls of lame? or go for one quick swoop, and clear them out faster than they can assemble a rush, just be sure to wait untill allsieges are operational before having a marine move in or scan, so that they get the full force effect) Nothing as pretty as seeing 5+ sieges opening up on some poor building, even seeing them all track the same way and blast is a sight to see.

moultano · February 2003

In 1.04 gorges can tower spam next to seiges to take them out because the splash damage hurts the seige itself. In one game I was dropping offense towers off of a ledge right next to a siege. They basically functioned as 14 resource grenades.

There is no error in the game. In 1.04 complete resource domination can sometimes make up for only having 1 hive. Thats just another layer of strategic depth.

Pika-Cthulhu · February 2003

Agreed about the Res domination, but then it quickly becomes a stalemate, with neither side being able to gain ground (Untill the Heavies roll out en masse and walk all over mostly everything)

As for chambers hurting sieges, Yes this works exceptionally well, but you need lots of res to do it, otherwise it wont work well enough (at least 2 chambers to weaken a siege well enough to warrant a skulk rush, if you can drop them from a distance, great, but usually, its hard to get into such a position, and your forced to either rush by and drop one through a key bind, or rush in and suicide with the chamber, thats 27(13+14) res gone there. and its only done so much damage. Then you need to organise your skulks to hit it fast so that they take out the TF so another gorge can build (Chambers will only weaken the Siege that fires on it so if its multiple sieges, its best to get skulks to rush and kill everything and have the gorge heal them)

SoDum · February 2003

I'm going to assume when you say 1600 damage from two gls that a single nade launcher does 200 a shot then. Im sure it's possible with enough towers and builders in large games, but, for arguements sake, let's take one since I saw it in action. Fair enough. Let's have a little math then, shall we.

4 gorges, 6 towers and a hive. I don't know the exact healing on healing spray, I believe it's 16. 16x4=64 on a tower. +60 Defenses, + 20 from the hive. 144 healing. The healing spray and hive heals more than once a second as well. The GL fires at a rate of 2 a second, about. 200 damage, 400 damage a second. 144 healing a second. About 256 damage. Fair enough, that's 512 damage from a clip. Then you have nearly 4 seconds(closer to three) to heal while the grenade launcher reloads. Healing over 144 a second, when it's all caculated you are doing about 50 damage to a tower. The 3 hmgs could have taken it down much quicker point blank but, we couldn't get close, we sent one hmg, he came back a short moment later with about 30 life and 50 armor. Seiges would have eventually (eventually) won, it's just long and boring. Strange as it is I enjoy losing as marines more than winning as them, just because it's so long and tedious when you don't jp hmg rush before they can form a strong defense.

Cxwf · February 2003

The answer to that stalemate is that grenade launchers hit an area, rather than 1 target. Your 1600 damage volley may do 1600 to the primary target, but everything around it will take substantial damage as well. The heal spray can only target one tower at a time, and the D-chambers can only target 3, so if your splash damage covers at least 4 units total (including maybe the gorge behind the tower) then that means something is dying very fast, healed only by the hive. A pair of gl's should therefore take out 1 tower or so per clip fired.

mojojojo · February 2003

*sigh* slightly silly analysis but...
You're forgetting the splash damage. With many chambers close together that will do almost as much damage as the direct hits. And with the way the def chambers work (healing 3 picked at random damaged targets in range a tick), this will greatly reduce the healing of your targetted chamber. The grenade launcher fires at lot faster than 2 a second (or at leaset it always seem to to me)

But, to take a more sensible, empirical view. I've never seen a wall of lame that stood up to grenade launchers for very long at all.

Note wrt SoDum - I am fairly sure 16 OCs is way over the area limit.

Also, I haven't heard of this chamber spamming as a problem before, and all the latest changes should work against it. DCs no longer heal themselves. GLs do full damage. OK, I suppose hive healing rate increease might make it more likely.

Meh, I normally like to go gorge, and I've never tried it, so perhaps I just haven't been in a game where it has happened.

1 hive aliens verses fully teched marines? How can you not win? Seriously, if the aliens were that good, they shouldn't of had any prooblem stopping you locking down two hives.

Ahnteis · February 2003

Aliens can't tech up inside a single fortified hive. That's why no "game ender" is needed.

As said, get better marines/comm.

0range · February 2003

a lot of games end up being a long drawn out stalemate when marines have 2 hives.. aliens cant go fade right? so all they have is res and boy do they place ocs everywhere... its kinda hard to get to hive to set up seige when theres a ton of oc and dc walls in your way.. so you have to make a decision.. seige crawl or trust your marines can handle it.. Seige crawl is a very gey tactic in my eyes..

so marines go out.. stick together weld.. It is still incredibly difficult to make it to hive and seige.. they will no doubt die and then 3 gorges with 100 res each will remake walls.. Hence stalemate and there is some kind of end gamer device needed in my opinion

porp · February 2003

If nothing else, 4 marines with HMG and welders. Two in front welding OCs. Two in back welding each other and the front line. Have one more HMG in back covering it all. It's really that simple.

Doombringer · February 2003

4 HA's, three with HMG, one with GL, all with welders. Keep health and ammo on them, push towards res nodes and secure them if necessary. With the extra cash, finish any lingering upgrades or store the res to keep HA/HMG/JP for anybody that dies and respawns. Push towards a hive with your HA tanks. Everybody weld each other. Again, keep health and ammo on them. You'll win. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

Unless the server crashes from building spam. To avoid this, cap res and slow the aliens' resource flow.

A nuke would be nice, though. It's a sort of coup de grace.. like the Onos is to the aliens. HA marines are comparitatively somewhere between Fade and Onos, but aren't quite an end-game unit or finisher. Give a nuke to your HA team, transport it to the hive, arm it.. and boom. Game over. VERY satisfying.. just as satisfying as destroying a marine base with Onos and spores <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

Ben128 · February 2003

The only reason it seems sometimes like there is not a marine game ender, is that for some unknown reason...people slack off once they consider the game won. You once perfect team becomes a mindless mob of rambos, who ask for equitment and no longer pay attention to orders.

This is even more complicated by the fact that the kharaa team will sometimes(not always), start to reall fight their hardest. And they often do a good job of it. I have seem some pretty good come backs due to this.

Marines, make sure you keep that good teamwork up all the way through. A quick seige push with HA or/and JPs should end a hive very quickly.

Roobubba · February 2003

As has been mentioned already, go and take their res out instead of going striaght for the hive. If a gorge has enough to drop tower after tower, you've let them have too much of the map. HA/HMG with JP/Shotty/Welders in background should be unstoppable by 1 hive aliens even if they're working well together.

I've had several 2 hour games (mainly on caged) both as 1 hive aliens and against 1 hive aliens, also later in game as 2 hives and against 2 hives. Different outcomes each time, due only to quality teamwork.

Sounds to me like you just need to play with some better players. I personally find the longer games unbelievably fun. A game ender would make this such a boring and cruddy mod and undermine all the good teamwork that people around the world are now building on.

Beetlejuice · February 2003

@SoDum:

Wow, your numbers are so wrong i do not even know where to start. Just some mistakes in your "calculation": Heal ticks are much longer, structures are healed by 3 def towers max per tick, gorges won't heal for long if they are standing in an explosion blast for 260 (Yes, with full weapon upgrades it is 260, not 200) dmg. Anyway, instead of calculating just take a gl, go to ANY kind of alien defense and shoot at it. If defense does not start to go down after 2 clips you just do not hit.
I just tested it with 8 def Towers (max possible). The first few went down in less than 8 shots (2 clips), the entire field was down with 4 clips.

@Orange:

If you do not manage to kill one hive while you have lots of resources and 2 hives secured then you must do about everything wrong. Skluks take forever to kill a ha marine, lerks even longer. Alien structures are gone in a few secs of gl fire.

Terr · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>a lot of games end up being a long drawn out stalemate when marines have 2 hives.. aliens cant go fade right? so all they have is res and boy do they place ocs everywhere...</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I have seen very few games that involved a true a 1-hive alien team stalemate.

Seriously, the marines HAVE a game ender--it's called denying the aliens their good tech. I'm putting it down to human error and/or one very good team of aliens.

They also don't have webs at a 1-hive level. Ever considered jetpacking in past a WoL and building some trickery?

0range · February 2003

everything people are suggesting will drag the game out forever.... Thats why i called for a game ender. Not because it was unwinnable but because it takes forever.

I'm not sayin this happens all the time. Im just sayin i think it happens enough to warrant some kind of game ender for marines. I mean, there has to be a reason a nuke was considered for ns..

Nether · February 2003

Find some decent marines, If you controlled 2 hives and had spent 45 minutes teching up the ONLY reason you could not end the game was because of disorganised or very unskilled players.

5 Marines in HA, 2 Infront one with HMG one with GL. 2 Behind them both welding the front two and each other, with hmg incase they need to shoot aswell. 1 HMG bringing up the rear.

Its absolutly impossible for skullks to stop a formation like that.

Digital-Limit · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (0range @ Feb 12 2003, 01:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I quit 3 games today as a marine because we had 2 hives secured and could not finish it.. i would give out ha/hmg and ha/gl but the team could not finish. Then i played another where comm just gave out ha.hmg and didnt worry about nades and we had 2 hives... Both games we held 2 hives for 45 frikkin minutes and no one could end it.. As i type this i remember the nuke.. Well please add something like this in the future. Something that cost a lot of res because both times we had 400 RES! ARgh i hate ns but i keep playing it!

give marines a game ender like aliens have onos!  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
HAHAAHAHAHAHHAA your team sux <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Thansal · February 2003

SIEGE FREAKIN SIEGE CREAP!

no one freaken usses sieges any more

I hget sick and tired of having to freaking GOAD the stupid marines to come and wipe up. every one complains about F4, yah know what stupid marines who can't end a game are what cause the f4 bug

if marines refuse to attack I warn them that they are what cause the f4 bug, and if it takes them like 5 mins to do ANYTHING (so long as you start towering twords us, or you have a marine death squad coming I will fight till the end).
But if no one is coming or trying ANYTHING, I will simply convince my team to f4 b/c the marines are just destroying the game for us.

Marine Game Ender

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