So What Exactly Was Nuke Anyhow?

MaTT · February 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">Question for the people 'in the know' :)</div> Now i've read about the old nuke feature a few times on these forums and i have gathered that it was overpowered and was taken out before the v1.0 release. I've also used the search feature on these forums several times for more information on nukes but have found nothing of interest. If you have not heard of the nuke before, then go to the NS controls menu and you will see that you can map a key to nuke under the commander hotkey section.

Now what ive always wondered is exactly how this feature worked? How was it researched? Was it activated by a device the marines carried or something? And exactly how overpowered and devastating was this feature? Please note that im not asking for this feature to be re-added to the game... Im just a curious soul... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

If the details of this removed feature are meant to be kept secret then will a mod please close this post!

Ph0enix · February 2003

I can't rememebr the specifics of how it worked. I do know it was removed becasue it was difficult to balance. A nuke rush was just way too powerful. I'm sure a PT will be able to tell you more.

TipTop · February 2003

... I second Matt's curiousity. Man can you imagine nuking your base as a a last effort to get all the aliens ...

MMZ_Torak · February 2003

I think read somewhere on these forums that it was similar to a structure in that it required building and that it couldn't be detonated until it was fully built. Even then it had a timer. Problem was the marines would turtle in Marine Start until they researched nukes, then build several in each hive (3 or more). The time frame for detonation was such that the aliens could not destroy all three before one went off. Quick and boring end to every game; therefore it was removed.

MaTT · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TipTop @ Feb 7 2003, 04:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> ... I second Matt's curiousity. Man can you imagine nuking your base as a a last effort to get all the aliens ...  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
lol.... imagine the comm placing a machine with a big red self destruct button in the middle of the marine base...

V_MAN · February 2003

I want it back <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'> from what I have read about it it doesn't sound overpowerful to me.

NumbersNotFound · February 2003

It would be a great way to stop them once they have 3 hives.... just rush to the least defended hive and plant a nuke. It would take some teamwork, and if they have you pinned into the base already it's of little use.

MMZ_Torak · February 2003

Hmmmm, that got me thinking. Maybe Marines should only have access to Nukes when Aliens have all three hives?

MonsieurEvil · February 2003

That's a very interesting notion, Torak. As long as it needed to be activated by a Marine (or perhaps two Marines at once? Sort of like nuclear 'keys' on a submarine), that could make it more workable and teamwork-oriented. And naturally they would be very expensive, so usage had the heightened risk of an all-or-nothing solution.

Interesting indeed. Perhaps Flay will weigh in at some point...

A_Terran_Marine · February 2003

Or limit to 1 nuke at a time...

MMZNastyDwarf · February 2003

I love it when the wheels in the head are turning

The_Spectre · February 2003

Why use nukes when two marines with HMGs can take down a hive in five seconds? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>

Marines don't need more firepower to kill a hive. The problem is <i>reaching</i> the hive.

AcKz · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The_Spectre @ Feb 7 2003, 01:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Why use nukes when two marines with HMGs can take down a hive in five seconds? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>

Marines don't need more firepower to kill a hive. The problem is <i>reaching</i> the hive.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Are you suggesting marines need more firepower to reach the hive? lol

RyoOhki · February 2003

The 3 Hive = Nuke idea could even fit in the storyline. Kinda like the marines bring along nukes but are under strict instructions not to use them unless infestation levels reach a certain point. At that point (3 hives) clearance is granted and the nukes become availible. As most of the time the TSA is operating in privatly owned or government facilities obviously nukes would only be employed as a last resort due to the massive structural damage they would cause, hence their release after 3 hives as the infestation has reached uncontrollable levels. Make the things managable though, we don't want them being spammed all over the place. Having to be activated by 2 marines strikes me as a good idea, but I thought it said in the faq that weapons that had to be used by multiple marines wouldn't be allowed...But hey, the developers can do whatever they want <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Brain_Cleaner · February 2003

sounds like a good feature...

it would be cool if it came back but in the same was a xenocide i.e the nukes cost (e.g) 150 res and are picked up like JP's then a marine can carry the nuke and detonate it near OC or a hive and it does massive damage, the marine would die but it would be worth if it ment taking a hive over. it could also wipe out ALL ailens inside a certain radius,this would be very useful when the marines are making a last stand agains fades & ornos, it'll give them a few mins to get back on their feet

RyoOhki · February 2003

so we really should move this thread into "suggestions and ideas" right? Or is it too controversial?

Pika-Cthulhu · February 2003

Yes Yes bring on teh nuke, so it can kill Onos and fades, tehn make the aliens have an anti nuke chamber, so the nuke wont go off, then the marines can get an Anti nuke chamber gun that kill it so the nuke can go off, then make aliens have an anti nuke chamber defense system, then the marines get a tank, then .... then..... then .....

Honestly, having a counter to everything is not the way to balance NS. If you lost 3 hives, you dropped the ball, so grab yer ankles and kiss yer backside goodbye. It is possible to come back from 3 hive with normal tech, but its VERY HARD, for a bloody good reason, the aliens are at their highest tech, and so should you be.

coil · February 2003

The facts about the nuke:

1) At the top of the marine tech tree, requiring an advanced armory and prototype lab, was the Nuke Factory. Once built, the commander could drop nukes.

2) A nuke cost somewhere between 70 and 100 RPs; I forget the exact number, but it was a lot.

3) A nuke was an item, dropped like ammo or health - anywhere on the map.

4) Nukes did not have to be built, but did have a countdown timer. In this time, they could be destroyed by aliens, but had a decent amount of health. It usually took 2 skulks to bite a nuke to death before it blew.

5) It took ~3 nukes to kill a hive.

Nukes were intended to "soften up" or finish off hives. They were removed because they allowed an extremely viable and very dull tactic: tech to nukes and then do nothing. When RPs reached about 1000 (not long, if you're not buying anything), the commander scanned each hive, and dropped 3-5 nukes in any active ones. Then the marines moved out to mop up what was left. It required no teamwork - hell, it required no ACTION - and was virtually unstoppable. Even if all the aliens were in a hive at the time of the attack (and the commander could have simply waited), they couldn't destroy 3-5 nukes in each hive before enough went off to take down the hives.

They may return in the future. My personal opinion is to make the Nuke Factory work like the equivalent in Starcraft - each individual nuke must be *built* before it can be used. Then I'd like to see either a marine spotter, or the nuke carried to the location by the a marine, or a marine must plant and activate a beacon - something like that.

Hozart1 · February 2003

Give marines more of a chance to come back from 3 hive conclusion, however, the aliens receive squat. Two-hive lockdown and the aliens are screwed. Jetpack rush killing off the hives and the aliens are screwed (esp. with the count-down crap).

The aliens at least have the ability to completely wipe out the marines without some cheesy tactic to do so unless the marines are REALLY bad.

Nukes cannot be put in, unless the aliens get something too.

Revenant · February 2003

A good way to balance it out is a Hive that could protect itself? Or launch out loads babblers when there is a marine in such a range?

MMZ_Torak · February 2003

The Aliens have a "mop-up" weapon, its called an Onos. I think nukes are a viable tool, but need to be severely limited or else you get things like Coil described. If nukes A) Worked like Starcraft's B) had to be built or activated as Monse suggested C) were only availabe when the Kharaa had three hives (the TSA wants to save the infested base and will only level it when it is a totally lost cause), I think it would be an awesome tool, and would make for awesome comebacks.

Also, as was mentioned in an older and different thread (about re-working the alien res system), I think the aliens need something to try and come back from the marine "Two Hive Lockdown". It was suggested that aliens be able to get all classes (species?) of Kharaa with one hive but make it dreadfully long to get them.

Superfly · February 2003

Perhaps, after the area has been "Nuked" it is un-inhabitable by mariens. Because of the fallout. This would make the tool usefull, but not give a full advantage. Aliens could rebuild thier hive and not be affected by the fallout. This would force teamwork amungst the mariens.

MedHead · February 2003

Just think about the games with this:

It's been a hard fight. The aliens have fought hard, and have finally broken through the marine lines. They have taken back their hives, and they are evolving. The marines have tried their hardest to regroup and retake at least one hive, but to no avail. Nothing seems to be stopping the hive mind now. It's time to defend. Time to defend the only thing left: the main base.

The resources are transferring slowly now. Almost too slow: nerves are fraying. Sweat can be seen trickling down the faces of every nervous marine. No aliens have attacked the main base in some time now. Every marine knows what that means: the aliens are evolving to Onos. Their hearts are beating quickly now. One marine is sure he's about to have a heart attack.

Over the intercom, the commander sighs. "We're going to die." He pauses, gathers his thought, chokes back his tears. "We have one last strategy. I know some of you may not like it. But we have to stop the Kharra." Quietly machines start shutting down around the base, accepting the Recycle command the commander is broadcasting. "I'm recycling the last of our defenses. I want Rogers, Smith, and Quickney to defend the lines. Do... what you can to... slow them down." The commander voice quakes a bit, for he knows he will never see the trio again. "Now go."

"Roger that, commander. It's been a pleasure serving under you." Nothing more is said. Nothing more is needed.

"Now for the rest of you, I want to begin assembling the nuclear warhead." The commander's voice is getting stronger now, now that a plan is in action. "We need to move! One of you keep your eyes open for aliens that have broken through - the rest of you, build the nuke!"

One of the marines couldn't stand it anymore. "I'm going to attack them! Death to the aliens!" Despite the orders to the contrary, the lone marine leaves the main base, only to be disembowled by an awaiting Fade.

"Ignore the screams. Keep moving." The commander sighs.

Switch. Hive mind. Connected. As one.

We. Will. Conquer. We have waited long enough. We will win. Attack. Be victorious.

The Kharra hive mind soothes the group, relishes the nearing victory of the Kharra. They have beaten the human scum, and will soon totally eradicate them from the space station. Soon, the Kharaa will have All. 3 Earth hours have passed since the initial marine attack. It has been a long fight. Many have been lost. But it will end soon.

It is time. The aliens countdown toward the moment, a silent clock ticking away in their minds. As one, they move toward the human base. They round the corner... victory will be theirs!

But what is this? The hive mind ponders the sight of the marines. They are smiling. They had just finished building some sort of machine, a machine unknown to this hive mind. The Hive begins searching for clues among long ignored memories, searching for some clue to the meaning of the marine's grim humor.

Suddenly, a memory surfaces. The hive recoils in shock. No. Not That. It couldn't be.

Searing pain. A victory lost. White. White hot. All lost, all lost...

The nuclear warhead ignites every nerve ending in the station with pain, greater than anything ever before experienced by those dwelling within. Then, nothing. A strange blackness, loss of feeling, collapse.

------------

The aliens would never get a fair victory. It would get really old playing on the Kharra team when they would always know that they would die from a suicidal move from the marines. Nukes are definitely not something I want in the game, and I am pleased they were removed.

MMZ_Torak · February 2003

MedHead, Nukes would be: expensive, time consuming, and destroyable. They would (in my little version of NS that lives in my head <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> ) only be available when the kharaa attained three hives. that coupled with my previous statement, would mean that only a poorly coordinated Alien team or very good main base defenses and good marines, would ever see nukes. IMHO it's always nice to know that there is a chance to come back, even if it didn't come around very often. It would also encourage the kharaa not to linger and to finish off the marines ASAP, you dont want to let one or 2 slip by.....

MedHead · February 2003

In my experience, the aliens take out marine bases faster than marines take out the final hive. Many times, the aliens have to beg (or taunt) the marines into moving forward to end the game, then for the marines to have to ask the aliens to attack.

At least, in my experience.

FireStorm · February 2003

nice story, and you're right...

PS: Hearing screams in NS would be really fine <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

MMZ_Torak · February 2003

You're right, so in most cases you would never see them. Only the foolish Kharaa or the inept Kharaa would get killed by a weapon that the TSA doesn't want used. Isn't that Natural Selection?

Dread · February 2003

My nuke idea:

-Commander can place it after some reasearch
-Marines have to build it
-Nuke CAN'T be destroyed by skulks
-After Nuke has been built commander has to activate it
-It has a timer of 1:30minutes
-A gorge can disable nukes with its healing spray, 15secs of constant healing is required(bacterials get inside of the Nuke and thats why it doesn't work)
-After Nuke explodes it does 3500 damage everything(Kharaas, Marines, Buildings, Chambers) in about 20meter area and every living life form(Kharaas and Marines but not chambers and buildings) lose 85% of their health in area about size of siege range(1150)
-Quite large area(30-40m) covers with red gas taps(only small clouds here and there to avoid lag) and inflicts damage to everyone except Heavy Marines. Fallout goes away in 2mins.
-Nuke makes beebing sound and red flashing light goes on when it has been activated(to make sure it can't be easily hided)
-Nuke costs about 60res(It must be built, activated, it has warning sound and count down)
-From the Nuclear Factory commander can research mininukes which are much like "big" nukes but without the fallout and with a lot smaller radius. These are meant as third option(with GL and siege) to destroy WoLs.
-"Mininukes" are something what commander gives to marines and they have to carry it in their backs. One mininuke/marine and it takes the 4th slot.
-Carrying mininuke disables jetpacks and HA(meaning you can't have both mininuke and jetpack/ha)
-Mininukes cost 25res

Actually howabout making it so that Nuclear Factory first gives out Mininukes and after that Com has to research the "real" Nukes. These Nukes could be also used as a game-ender when Onos' starts flooding in. Die with honor <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'> After these Marines wouldn't even need handgrenades since they can now destroy WoL's in other way!

The_Damned · February 2003

I've seen a countdown for a nuke but the timer was so long that it never had the chance to go off. I'm not sure if it's the same thing though.
I beleive it was at voogroo's server (I think that's how you spell it)

Dread · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MedHead @ Feb 7 2003, 09:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> In my experience, the aliens take out marine bases faster than marines take out the final hive. Many times, the aliens have to beg (or taunt) the marines into moving forward to end the game, then for the marines to have to ask the aliens to attack.

At least, in my experience.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Well Nukes would end this quick, no?

Pika-Cthulhu · February 2003

I can see ways around the nuke. Aliens secure third hive, but dont build it untill after capping every res node, and defenseing up every coridoor/vent/acess tunnel. Soon as they are ready, and the res is obscene, they throw up the third hive, and wait for onos/level 3 attacks, after massing near the marine base. Then its just a matter of time of rushing in as soon as your evolved and wiping out as much as you can/key structures to quickly kill them before thier Nuke factory is even built (seeing as hive 3 just came online, and you probably have to research, then make the nuke) This way, aliens can avoid teh cheesy nuke, give the marines the awfully long painfull wait to die (like 2 hive lockdown) And make it unviable for them to ever comeback. Nuke will only be seen in truly inept cases where the ball is dropped severely.

Maybe it shuld be put in, Id personally love to torment the bloody marines with the threat of instant destruction, just like with marines 2 hive lockdown. Would make it more "balanced" make em wait for the Onos (like they make us wait for the HA/HMG squads or siege factory).

So What Exactly Was Nuke Anyhow?

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