Weld Points

RyoOhki · February 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">The opinion of mappers</div> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I'm hesitant to add welds since they don't get used in most games. The last time I did use welds in this map it wrecked the gameplay.
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Came across this quote today by ChromeAngel (love your work and by no means is this an attack on you) and as he seems to be a very good mapper I wondered: is this the opinion of most mappers? That weld points are sorta like spoilers on a car: flashy but un-nessassary? Speaking from a personal perspective I love weld points, and I'd love them even more if they we're unweldable (Flayra's interview gives me hope). Gameplay on maps like Hera can be really influenced by weld points and it's sad to see them not used. I'll throw two questions in here to the mappers:

1) Do most mappers agree with the above statement? That welds arn't really needed?
If you answered yes:
2) What sort of changes (to welding) would you want before you'd consider weld points far more important?

I'm not a mapper and am in awe of people who can make these incredible maps so I really do value your opinion. I thought I'd go right to the source on this one <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Revenant · February 2003

Personally welds should be made so at the beginning of a game if the marines rush a hive or the kharaa try to rush a hive that is extremely close to the marine spawn it can be closed, or opened, meaning a longer/shorter period balancing out hive travel from ms. otherwise i just use it on a vent or 2, bast is a good example of welding, the vent by marine spawn, ns_eclipse has now got a vent to weld at horseshoe.

Green_Meat · February 2003

Welds became absolutely esential in my current map to stop the marines from having an easy route to the hives.

I think they are great, as a mapper and a player. I just hope they get tuned-up. Having them be able to toggle would be awesome and would greatly add to the gameplay of the map I'm working on. Also having a alien equivelent would also be alot of fun IMO.

Could you link that interview you were talkin about?

GSH

Sycophant · February 2003

The option to weld is available in NS simply because it's practical, and it's probably something someone would have requested anyways if it wasn't already included.

I don't agree with the statement of "welds aren't really needed" because they help the marines do what they're there to do - eliminate the Kharaa presence. Personally, I'd love to see even <b>more</b> weldables in maps. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

I think that once mappers start thinking up new and innovative uses for that welder, the welded reactions will start becoming more impressive in how they're used, as well as how greatly they'll affect the map. I love the idea of the welded doors in Hera, and the laser in Tanith simply blew my mind the first time I saw it. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

watch_me_die · February 2003

I'd like to see more complex welding systems on maps.. for example a set of buttons that will do different things depending on the order in which you weld them.

Love the weldables on hera too, the cargo door weld and the big lock door welds really make the map more dynamic <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

G0rebash · February 2003

my opinion is that welding point should be added to maps during playtests.

If, for instance I discovered that the aliens were gaining a huge advantage over the marines later in the game I would add a welding point in a place that proved a challenge for the marines to reach. Personally when im playing marines theres nothing more fun than shiting my pants (not litterally) when watching that welding progress bar move....

I believe that a map SHOULD be interactive in this way and reward marines/ aliens for their early achievements early on in the game - indeed that is what I will be doign with my map ns_excession....lol not advertising in any way... heh <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

ImaTarget · February 2003

weldables are fun. alas with the entities limit you are facing with the HL engine i find it hard to create really complex stuff. also you should remember that in general the more "interactive" entities you have in a map the more the server has to do. So adding welds or not is ,at least for me, a question of free resources. If i have enough room for weldables ill add em, if not ill leave em out.

tommy14 · February 2003

weldables have 3 basic purposes:
defensive
offensive
gingerbread/fx for looks/feel.

most vent welds are defensive - disrupting alien movement, defending bases/hives. also those welds that activate defensive feilds, equip, and bright lights for better viewing for humans.

a some are offensive - opening accesses to hive that were blocked, and make end runs around alien defenses.

a few are rarely used only for fx/looks - turning on/off a spark, or a light effect.

<b>so yeah, they have effects on play. and they DO need to be tested during playtesting - but how much testing do most mappers do? i say put them in the map where you think they will go well, test the weld.
if it is a too big human advantage, block it. if it slows the humans down too much, remove it for faster access. but it is not just gingerbread alone!</b>

<i>but i would not worry too much about human advantage - i checked around some public servers which kept stats, most maps run 2-1 alien wins vs humans. clan matches may be more even.</i>

Axehandler · February 2003

One of the WEldable's I added..

At the edge of the MS, is a spot you can weld. once welded it closes a huge door. Preventing anyone from getting into or out of MS, without using a Vent.

The Door is destroyable. just has alot of HP's

The Starting Marine RT is just OUTSIDE the door.
--

Not sure how this will affect overall gameplay or how Players/Comms will use this. BUT the way I see it being used. is a final Lockdown. when the Marines know it's over. can't stop the Aliens. so they close the door and attempt to hold them off for a last stand. The door being Destoryable allows the Aliens to Destory the door and get in. but by then the Marines should be ready. the RT being outside the door stops the marines from gaining Res. while attempting that.

the 2 big problems I can see with this.... is.... Moving Base. and Problem players on Pub servers. once a PG is up in the Marine Start they COULD lock the door and just use the PG... (better pray other PG's don't go down thou <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>) besides if they lock the door... they will most likely lose that RT just outside it.

Thoughts?

Axe

RyoOhki · February 2003

It's great to see feedback like this, I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one to love welds <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Yeah, the tanith laser weld has to be one of the best I've seen, when I first welded it I thought "hey, this didn't do anything" then the giant red crosses appeared...

Whilst we're on the topic of welds though, Flayra mentioned in his interview that he wanted welds to play a much more vital role in the game, and suggested making all doors and lifts weldable (which before the game came out I thought welding was going to work just like this, ala Aliens). What are people's thoughts on making this viable? Should aliens be able to bite through them? If they could, should they be reweldable afterwards? Should aliens be able to weld points?

Thoughts and ideas please <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

ImaTarget · February 2003

making all doors weldable is just viable when aliens have the opportunity to "unweld" doors. Howe that will ever be accomplished i dunno, but i seriously hope it will be added (this has been mentioned inthe webbed FGD thread i think. As it stands you can weld something and an alien can destroy it, but really reweldable stuff you cant do afaik.

It would be nice to have "Marine weldables" and "alien weldables". But since this is speculation at the moment it does not have much use to talk about heh <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

Yamazaki · February 2003

In Penumbra (Yes, remaking this mape AGAIN...) , the welds are strictly for use on 'access panels'. These distinctly-marked panels can be welded open, revealing a switch that does something elsewhere in the map. Some small shortcut routes and options get revealed when you weld open the right panel and pull the switch. For example, in one area I have a retractable bridge which crosses a coolant storage pool. Normally the bridge controls work, but the marines might decide to cut the entrance points into their base and pull the switch which disables the bridge, until someone pulls the switch again and starts it back up.

Another switch I have reactivates the power through a conduit, making previously safe 'vent' into a live power transfer conduit, frying anyone inside.

And yet another toggles the safety systems in a certain deck area, which turns on the extinguishers and puts out a fire that was contained in one hallway. Once the fire is out, the hallway reopens and players can use it as a shortcut.

Welds, more than just for doors.

Morose · February 2003

Those are all excellent ideas Yamazaki, and much more interesting than just welding a vent shut. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

The_Real_Quasar · February 2003

I had the idea of the MS being past an airlock, so that the airlock controls would need to be welded. The marines would be able to upgrade, but while they do aliens are getting the hives, so i think that is fairly balanced. I may or may not add it, but i like the idea.

RyoOhki · February 2003

Excellent suggestions Yamazaki I look forward to playing on your maps <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> I had the "weld shutting off a fire" idea the other day, seems you beat me too it <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

Green_Meat · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ImaTarget @ Feb 7 2003, 06:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> making all doors weldable is just viable when aliens have the opportunity to "unweld" doors. Howe that will ever be accomplished i dunno, but i seriously hope it will be added (this has been mentioned inthe webbed FGD thread i think. As it stands you can weld something and an alien can destroy it, but really reweldable stuff you cant do afaik.

It would be nice to have "Marine weldables" and "alien weldables". But since this is speculation at the moment it does not have much use to talk about heh <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Yea, I think me and another poster had put that in as a request in the webbed FGD requests toipic.

My thinking on it was that the gorge could use the heal spray to grow bacteria on an item, rendering it useless. But you could also say that the bacteria were working their way into an object and gridlocking the safety features, causing the object to unlock.

It's just speculation, as you said, but it sure would be nice, and offer lots of options.

GSH

BiTMAP · February 2003

I personaly Think weld points can be QUIte useful... I have a slab of infestation blocking a second path to a Hive (well okay in my OLD version of rift i did) and it started as a blocker but aliens can run over it, but marines have to weld it out.... It just makes it that much slower to get through.

Weld Points

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