good job, but i think this is in the wrong forum...? you should talk to flayra or one of the devs about this.....just a thought. Flayra seems to be active when it comes to these forums......i love this game already best mod for halflife ever!......oh well
Okay, reasonable question... Why here? I'm posting this in General Discussion as there's talk <b>all over</b> the forums and a general concensus that there's a hitbox bug in the game in regards to Skulks and other things, in vents and out. This isn't a bug report, it's rumour control more than anything else.
These tests were performed using v1.04 Release, I did not and have no intention of testing with previous releases.
These tests were performed using existing entities, no fancy tricks, just a mindblowingly-overdone tiny little map to test with.
Specifically, for the 'hitbox test' I placed a series of lasers in a diagonal line across a room, set to do very little damage. I then walked into the beams as each class, testing which lasers were visibly blocked.
Marines all blocked the first 4 beams, roughly 64 units tall blocking, and at most 2 at a time for 32 wide, this is within the published specs.
Skulks blocked only the first two beams, for at most 32 units tall, and 32 units wide as well. This is also within the published specs.
Lerks were the same as Skulks, as were Gorges.
Fades were the same as Marines, as expected.
Onos... blocked a 64-unit tall, 32-unit wide chunk centered from external inspection on a 'normal player bounding box' dangling from the middle of their spine.
Yes, this means that they never blocked the lowest laser-beam when standing. They do indeed have the 'way too freakin' small' bounding box for projectile impacts, you need to aim at their very core accurately, not their oversized head, or you <b>will not hit them</b> at all
However... all other hitbox issues are non-existant while walking around normally, assuming the built-in env_laser entities use the same hitscan code and trace function as the bullet-based projectiles and the knife use.
A further test revealed an anomaly which <b>may</b> be the 'marine in vents' bug that everyone thinks exists. It's not an actual bug, it's a stack of coincidences that result in about half the marine being outside the bite attack.
Specifically... when in a 'vent' the marine only blocks the beam on the floor, and two beams up from there. That's roughly 16-20 units blocked, centered very exactly on the floor of the vent.
A skulk on the ceiling bites 8 units <b>above</b> the ceiling they're affixed to, down to 16 units <b>below</b> the ceiling...
This means they bite only the top half of a vent if they don't disable wall-running by 'crouching' properly.
And marines have a hitbox that doesn't extend to the top of the vent, which is by standard 32 units tall but only 20-24 units of it are taken up by the 'crouched' hitbox.
It's not specifically a bug, so much as something that happens as a side-effect of the wall-climbing causing Skulks to bite higher than they would otherwise.
Attached is the .map, .rmf, and .bsp file, so anyone can look at the map in any editor, and the map itself can be loaded for experimenting.
However it does not seem to test the actual stated 'hit box bug' (that of a marine crouched in a VENT will be very hard to hit with melee)
is there any way for you to test that?
~T <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Tested, with a simple construct. Download updated, results edited into the post as well. The 'bug' may well be a simple matter of the wall-walking code changing the point-of-impact slightly vertically along with the standard vent height causing an amusing coincidence of numbers that results in a 4-8 unit tall swath to actually hit a marine with vertically, instead of the normal 24-unit-tall swath.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Meaning, for skulkerrific fun when attacking, hold down your crouch button at all times to take out the bits that make invinci-marining that much easier. Or for those who know the console, bind CAPS LOCK to toggle crouching, and leave yourself crouched when moving to chomp.
There was a thread a while ago about the face that the skulk hitbox is flawed. The poster did some testing, took some screenshots, and found that if you shoot a skulk <b>from the side</b>, you can't do damage if you hit him in the head. Of course, shooting from the front or back worked fine, as the bullets just go through the skulk's not-a-hitbox head and hit his torso, which is a hitbox.
I searched for it, but couldn't find the thread. Could you maybe do a test where you test to see how long, from teeth to rear-end, the skulk hitbox is?
The thing is... that's not a 'bug' persay, but a known limitation of the engine.
It doesn't support models as being anything but vertical cylinders, in effect. This is a little over-simplified, but it can only replace models with soda-pop cans standing perfectly vertically for bounding boxes of various shapes and sizes, basically.
This test is to clear up the source and issue with the 'skulk cant bite a Marine in a vent or on a ladder' issue, which is... Skulk's bites are around 8 units too high in relation to their actual position when in wall-climb mode, as near as I can deduce, as when ceiling-walking I bit ABOVE the ceiling into the block of wall, a fact that you can duplicate with the previously-attached map.
<!--QuoteBegin--Silver Fox+Feb 5 2003, 07:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Silver Fox @ Feb 5 2003, 07:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> see, the difference between Wolf's post and the other ones on this forum ...
he actually put forth effort to test something, rather then just assume it was broken.
Thanks Wolf, great info <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's something I'm used to doing, the fiddly busy-work to help make test cases to check things.
Admitedly, this is a 'test case' the size of the brooklyn bridge now, but it works. :-)
Glad the info's helpful.
Just to sumarize for anyone tuning in late... Skulk's bite 'raises' about 8 units (rough calculations) when wall-walking... in a vent, you are ALWAYS wall-walking, so THAT is why you can't bite a Marine in a vent, they barely take up the lower 2/3rds of the vent, and your bite now barely takes up 1/3rd, so if you aim too high... whoosh.
what height is a jp marine in a vent? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--WolfWings+Feb 5 2003, 10:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WolfWings @ Feb 5 2003, 10:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just to sumarize for anyone tuning in late... Skulk's bite 'raises' about 8 units (rough calculations) when wall-walking... in a vent, you are ALWAYS wall-walking, so THAT is why you can't bite a Marine in a vent, they barely take up the lower 2/3rds of the vent, and your bite now barely takes up 1/3rd, so if you aim too high... whoosh. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah-ha, that fits in with my own experiences of the bite being too high, however i wasn't aware that it was limited to wall clinging. The generally accepted method of hitting a vent marine was to angle your bite downwards, i guess now we can consider holding crouch to be the new trend :)
This still leaves the question of how you can dive directly onto the head of a marine crouched in a corner, look down and miss him. Perhaps you are actually making contact with the back wall when doing this, and the bite is then 'too high' while being angled downwards in such a way that the damage is aimed at/through the back wall.
Your tests are a very good way of showing the damage area of the attacks, which is something i haven't been able to accurately test.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> see, the difference between Wolf's post and the other ones on this forum ...
he actually put forth effort to test something, rather then just assume it was broken. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*sigh*, you're so pathetic. This is a silly little dig at the fade thread isnt it? The hittable area of the aliens relating poorly to their visible models has been brought up, tested and shown conclusively several times on this forum. The only error made in the fade thread was to refer to it as a bug. You were wrong, he was right, get over it.
Good stuff, but it'd be even better if you posted some pics. The numbering units in HL are rather arbitrary, so a picture with the lasers and whatnot would give better perspective. Maybe even the pics of the damage indicator from the skulk bite.
It´s more like no problem at all; I just tested this in a game on ns_nancy as the marines were sitting in the vent near port engine and all I can say is I smoked right through them. No need for biting downwards or something.
Kinda explains why I never had any trouble killing crouching marines as lerk or fade though. Nice work discovering that trick
that vent by port engineworks fine for me too, its the vent out front of their base that leads to the first marine res tower where marines become "invincible" it probably has slightly different dimensions that make it show the effects of the bite "bug" that the port engine vent doesnt.
I was also playing around the port engine room while 5 marines came into the vent right by it (the really wide one). my team mates tried unsucessfully to kill them, so i hit crouch ran in and killed 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, in abuot 6 seconds. i had 40 something health left. crouching does work like a charm
Ok, this is off topic, but I just am getting sick of hearing this. Why does everyone rag on Fox? In this instance she's pointing out that most people just complain about "buggy hitboxes" and "immortal marines in vents" whereas wolf went all out and found out the specifics as to why this happens. I've seen it all over the forums from people who whine and people to vent rage. Fox has a valid point. After making that point, SF thanked wolf for doing such a good job instead of whining or demanding it be "fixed."
Honestly, what the hell is your problem people?
On a related note: Wolf, awesome job. Thanks for your work.
But Crouch disables the skulk's wallclimbing ability. That's why you should crouch when leaping through vents and low ceillings so you don't 'hang' and get stuck.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
what ever, the troll was just blasting at fox who happenes to be a very intelegent person, so ignore it
as for Wolf THANK YOU!!
I compleatly get it all
this is also probably a good explenation for alot of my problems of fighting as a skulk
the sad thing is that it meens that it is nearly imposible to chomp a marines feet if he is on a ladder b/c you would have to 'aim down' (can't use crouch) and that could get hard
btw skulks are ALWAYS wall climbing (try looking up when on the ground and pushing fowards, you will 'detach' from the ground ;D
I think I might just make a script to bring it back to the original way wall walk worked (hold crouch to turn it on)
<!--QuoteBegin--Kilmster+Feb 6 2003, 09:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kilmster @ Feb 6 2003, 09:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Silver Fox+Feb 6 2003, 03:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Silver Fox @ Feb 6 2003, 03:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> see, the difference between Wolf's post and the other ones on this forum ...
he actually put forth effort to test something, rather then just assume it was broken.
Thanks Wolf, great info <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And the difference between the above post, and others, is that this is made by a spammer. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And the difference between most of the other 'thanks for the info' posts, and yours?
You lost any shred of respect I had for you when you effectively tried to kick Silver Fox in the head for no reason other than stating a fact. Nobody else did anything but vague 'feels good' testing, and bitching about not being able to bite marines that they 'felt' they should be able to bite.
I actually downloaded WorldCraft, and <b>learned how to use it from scratch</b> well enough to build a map to test this idea, and modified the map as I went to improve the tests available inside of it.
Yes, I respect Silver Fox's opinion pretty highly. If you don't like that, I'm sorry. Don't flame in this thread please or I'll remove all relevant information, post it to a fresh copy, and leave this copy to rot in the basement. I'd like to, actually, to move the attachment further up.
As to the 'depth' of Skulk or Fade or Lerk bites... download the map and try it out yourself. Just rember to cl_pitchup 0 and cl_pitchdown 0 before biting to make sure they're perfectly horitonzal bites, no up or down at all. :-)
As to JP Marines in vents... I'll see about updating the map to support such a test, though it can't be tested by a single person unfortunately, needing a pair to check.
<!--QuoteBegin--SuperMunchkin+Feb 6 2003, 06:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SuperMunchkin @ Feb 6 2003, 06:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok, this is off topic, but I just am getting sick of hearing this. Why does everyone rag on Fox? In this instance she's pointing out that most people just complain about "buggy hitboxes" and "immortal marines in vents" whereas wolf went all out and found out the specifics as to why this happens. I've seen it all over the forums from people who whine and people to vent rage. Fox has a valid point. After making that point, SF thanked wolf for doing such a good job instead of whining or demanding it be "fixed."
Honestly, what the hell is your problem people?
On a related note: Wolf, awesome job. Thanks for your work.
~G'day <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> might be because I'm a playetester, mabye they think i'm 'elitest' or some other crap, perhaps its because I get too defensive when people say things without putting any research into it first.
Its been happening since NS was released. People assume this or that is unblanced untill someone learns a new strategy and then it becomes nerfed over night.
I also have no respect for anyone who comes to these forums just to rag on NS, a feature or Flayra. They dont see what he went/goes through to make this mod. It seems like they have no respect for the man and he puts everything he can into this game. Hell, as much as I did play NS and see him struggle through it and the little arguements we all had from time to time, I bet pales in comparison to the actual crap hes been through and I wish people would seriously just cut the guy a break. Hes been trying to 'fix' NS since its been released. Personaly, minus the unforseen bugs and changes made before the release I would have loved to see it unchanged.
When I first got into play testing NS, I suppose you could say I was your typical gamer and mainly just played to play. Figure I'd give an idea or two when I could and it would be all good ..
Then during one play test I guess you could say I blew up. There was a major grenade imbalace and the marines were spamming them like crazy despite it. I even started yelling at Flayra at one point. He then said something that put me in my place and changed my views on my play testing status, playing style and NS in general. I need not tell you what was said, but I saw how much Flayra loved NS ... and I find it down right disrespectfull when people come to the forums and spout stupid things or post 'facts' about balance, based on a game they played for a week ...
Or posts saying a certain weapon is unbalanced, and being the only proof they have is the game they just played where they "totaly bit the **** out of that guy and he didnt die! omgz h4x!!1"
But, they can hate all they want, it still wont change who I am or what I do. It just makes me skip their message when I see their name - I try not (believe it or not) to turn the forums into a flaming mess, but at times it does happen and in most cases I just opt out of the forum and let them believe what they want.
so wat did he say <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--><!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> we wana hear it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Good job, and since someone said something about the skulk hitboxes im going to tell my opinion(like someone cared) about it. Maybe that skulks hitbox could be placed a little more forward, as it seems that now its in skulk back part, I would like to see it being in the middle part.
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1--> <--[-] yep, thats trying to be skulk :) The [-] shows how the hitbox is now
<-[-]- and this is how I would like it to be. Seems better to me, also skulks couldn't hide inside of buildings so well anymore <!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Thansal+Feb 7 2003, 12:49 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thansal @ Feb 7 2003, 12:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> a very intelegent person
I compleatly get it all
explenation for alot
meens that it is nearly imposible to chomp a marines <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> People. The government funds education programs for a reason, so you can take advantage of them and not come off as a <b>*explitive deleted*</b> when you call someone "intelligent" and fail to spell it correctly.
*shudder*
As for the hitboxes, thanks for testing. All it does is reinforce what we already knew, that something was wrong. And now, it gives us a handy way to counter it. So thank you WolfWings, I think holding crouch is a lot easier than biting "down". And you'd think someone would take the thousands of yelling/bitching posts on the boards a little more seriously than that. If 200 people say something is wrong, there's a good chance that it is, and at the very least, it should be looked at, keeping in mind that most casual players are NOT proficient in Worldcraft, or scripting, or coding, or any of the neat tools that are used in testing things, not dismissed as whining because a certain admin liked the mod the way it was.
<!--QuoteBegin--Silver Fox+Feb 7 2003, 02:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Silver Fox @ Feb 7 2003, 02:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I even started yelling at Flayra at one point. He then said something that put me in my place and changed my views on my play testing status, playing style and NS in general. I need not tell you what was said, but I saw how much Flayra loved NS ... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Was that line:
Flayra: "I urge you to leave your critic duties behind for a bit and instead, create something then tell me about it, so that I may leave a giant poo on it in a public place."?
Also, now that we've got the vent stuff cleared, let's see about some miscellaneous questions...
1) From my understanding of Wolf's analysis, when you're hanging below a horizontal plane (ie: the ceiling of the vent), your aim is offset upwards. But what happens if you're hanging on a vertical plane (ie: ladder)? Does your aim also get offset upwards by the same number of units; in which case you would have to aim closer to the ladder if you were underneath, trying to bite the feet of a 'rine?
2) Likewise for wall walking on vertical planes, what if you're on top, trying to bite down on top of a head of a marine? Does that mean you need to aim even lower than directly down, which is obviously impossible?
3) And what about if you're in mid air? I'm assuming there's no problem here, as there's no hanging involved.
4a) Lastly, with the wall walk aim offset, is it a translation of the origin of the bite upwards (ie: the angle remains the same, but where the bite occurs is above/outside of the skulk), or is it actually an X amount of degrees rotation upwards (ie: the bite originates from the skulk's mouth, but the angle at which it bites at is affected)?
4b) If the offset is a translation and not a rotation, couldn't it be possible to abuse this quirk? I mean, hang below the Docking Wing 01 bridge or any thin floor and magically bite marines as they walk over it.
6) Is parasite affected by the aim offset? Is that why if you're hanging on a ceiling, it's a bit difficult to parasite someone? Or does Anavrin simply suck at aiming?
If you need someone to help you test, let me know.
All of your questions could be answered by downloading the trying the map I built. :-)
But to answer you directly:
Whenever you are 'wallclimbing' your attack is offset upwards by around 8 units. I haven't gone back and re-checked down to the unit yet.
This is a basic modification to your attack location, parasite appears to be affected the same way, as well as bite. This may also explain the difficulty with getting Leap to do damage, is that you can 'push' against someone, but are possibly having the damage inflicted 'over their heads' at the same time.
If you are in mid-air, I am unsure if the bug still manifests as there's no feasable way to test it. All I know is that turning off wallclimb all the time when not actively using it seems to solve a lot of problems, making Leap, Bite, and Parasite easier.
And yes, I believe this bug is also what causes Skulks to be able to bite upwards through thin floors into marine structures and marines themselves, as it would be consistant-changed behavior then.
For those that would like a simple scripted solution, you can try something like this:
alias +skulkattack "+duck; +attack" alias -skulkattack "-attack; -duck"
bind MOUSE1 +skulkattack
Of course you will need to "bind MOUSE1 +attack" when you play something other than skulk <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Also, this attack will always drop you off the wall when you press MOUSE1. For those times that you need to attack when on the wall (opening grates), I just bind a different key to +attack (i.e. bind g "+attack"). It's been working great for me.
Comments
See fourth entry, edited with latest results and information.
These tests were performed using v1.04 Release, I did not and have no intention of testing with previous releases.
These tests were performed using existing entities, no fancy tricks, just a mindblowingly-overdone tiny little map to test with.
Specifically, for the 'hitbox test' I placed a series of lasers in a diagonal line across a room, set to do very little damage. I then walked into the beams as each class, testing which lasers were visibly blocked.
Marines all blocked the first 4 beams, roughly 64 units tall blocking, and at most 2 at a time for 32 wide, this is within the published specs.
Skulks blocked only the first two beams, for at most 32 units tall, and 32 units wide as well. This is also within the published specs.
Lerks were the same as Skulks, as were Gorges.
Fades were the same as Marines, as expected.
Onos... blocked a 64-unit tall, 32-unit wide chunk centered from external inspection on a 'normal player bounding box' dangling from the middle of their spine.
Yes, this means that they never blocked the lowest laser-beam when standing. They do indeed have the 'way too freakin' small' bounding box for projectile impacts, you need to aim at their very core accurately, not their oversized head, or you <b>will not hit them</b> at all
However... all other hitbox issues are non-existant while walking around normally, assuming the built-in env_laser entities use the same hitscan code and trace function as the bullet-based projectiles and the knife use.
A further test revealed an anomaly which <b>may</b> be the 'marine in vents' bug that everyone thinks exists. It's not an actual bug, it's a stack of coincidences that result in about half the marine being outside the bite attack.
Specifically... when in a 'vent' the marine only blocks the beam on the floor, and two beams up from there. That's roughly 16-20 units blocked, centered very exactly on the floor of the vent.
A skulk on the ceiling bites 8 units <b>above</b> the ceiling they're affixed to, down to 16 units <b>below</b> the ceiling...
This means they bite only the top half of a vent if they don't disable wall-running by 'crouching' properly.
And marines have a hitbox that doesn't extend to the top of the vent, which is by standard 32 units tall but only 20-24 units of it are taken up by the 'crouched' hitbox.
It's not specifically a bug, so much as something that happens as a side-effect of the wall-climbing causing Skulks to bite higher than they would otherwise.
Attached is the .map, .rmf, and .bsp file, so anyone can look at the map in any editor, and the map itself can be loaded for experimenting.
and this is very very well done.
However it does not seem to test the actual stated 'hit box bug' (that of a marine crouched in a VENT will be very hard to hit with melee)
is there any way for you to test that?
~T
and this is very very well done.
However it does not seem to test the actual stated 'hit box bug' (that of a marine crouched in a VENT will be very hard to hit with melee)
is there any way for you to test that?
~T <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tested, with a simple construct. Download updated, results edited into the post as well. The 'bug' may well be a simple matter of the wall-walking code changing the point-of-impact slightly vertically along with the standard vent height causing an amusing coincidence of numbers that results in a 4-8 unit tall swath to actually hit a marine with vertically, instead of the normal 24-unit-tall swath.
I searched for it, but couldn't find the thread. Could you maybe do a test where you test to see how long, from teeth to rear-end, the skulk hitbox is?
It doesn't support models as being anything but vertical cylinders, in effect. This is a little over-simplified, but it can only replace models with soda-pop cans standing perfectly vertically for bounding boxes of various shapes and sizes, basically.
This test is to clear up the source and issue with the 'skulk cant bite a Marine in a vent or on a ladder' issue, which is... Skulk's bites are around 8 units too high in relation to their actual position when in wall-climb mode, as near as I can deduce, as when ceiling-walking I bit ABOVE the ceiling into the block of wall, a fact that you can duplicate with the previously-attached map.
/me cries
he actually put forth effort to test something, rather then just assume it was broken.
Thanks Wolf, great info
he actually put forth effort to test something, rather then just assume it was broken.
Thanks Wolf, great info <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's something I'm used to doing, the fiddly busy-work to help make test cases to check things.
Admitedly, this is a 'test case' the size of the brooklyn bridge now, but it works. :-)
Glad the info's helpful.
Just to sumarize for anyone tuning in late... Skulk's bite 'raises' about 8 units (rough calculations) when wall-walking... in a vent, you are ALWAYS wall-walking, so THAT is why you can't bite a Marine in a vent, they barely take up the lower 2/3rds of the vent, and your bite now barely takes up 1/3rd, so if you aim too high... whoosh.
Ah-ha, that fits in with my own experiences of the bite being too high, however i wasn't aware that it was limited to wall clinging. The generally accepted method of hitting a vent marine was to angle your bite downwards, i guess now we can consider holding crouch to be the new trend :)
This still leaves the question of how you can dive directly onto the head of a marine crouched in a corner, look down and miss him. Perhaps you are actually making contact with the back wall when doing this, and the bite is then 'too high' while being angled downwards in such a way that the damage is aimed at/through the back wall.
Your tests are a very good way of showing the damage area of the attacks, which is something i haven't been able to accurately test.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
see, the difference between Wolf's post and the other ones on this forum ...
he actually put forth effort to test something, rather then just assume it was broken.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*sigh*, you're so pathetic. This is a silly little dig at the fade thread isnt it? The hittable area of the aliens relating poorly to their visible models has been brought up, tested and shown conclusively several times on this forum. The only error made in the fade thread was to refer to it as a bug. You were wrong, he was right, get over it.
Kinda explains why I never had any trouble killing crouching marines as lerk or fade though.
Nice work discovering that trick
After making that point, SF thanked wolf for doing such a good job instead of whining or demanding it be "fixed."
Honestly, what the hell is your problem people?
On a related note: Wolf, awesome job. Thanks for your work.
~G'day
but do you know whats the range and angle of the skulk bite?
A skulk actually can crouch even though the model doesn't?
I'm not asking to redicule anyone, I just didn't realize that they had any crouch effect.
But Crouch disables the skulk's wallclimbing ability. That's why you should crouch when leaping through vents and low ceillings so you don't 'hang' and get stuck.
as for Wolf THANK YOU!!
I compleatly get it all
this is also probably a good explenation for alot of my problems of fighting as a skulk
the sad thing is that it meens that it is nearly imposible to chomp a marines feet if he is on a ladder b/c you would have to 'aim down' (can't use crouch) and that could get hard
btw skulks are ALWAYS wall climbing (try looking up when on the ground and pushing fowards, you will 'detach' from the ground ;D
I think I might just make a script to bring it back to the original way wall walk worked (hold crouch to turn it on)
he actually put forth effort to test something, rather then just assume it was broken.
Thanks Wolf, great info <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And the difference between the above post, and others, is that this is made by a spammer. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And the difference between most of the other 'thanks for the info' posts, and yours?
You lost any shred of respect I had for you when you effectively tried to kick Silver Fox in the head for no reason other than stating a fact. Nobody else did anything but vague 'feels good' testing, and bitching about not being able to bite marines that they 'felt' they should be able to bite.
I actually downloaded WorldCraft, and <b>learned how to use it from scratch</b> well enough to build a map to test this idea, and modified the map as I went to improve the tests available inside of it.
Yes, I respect Silver Fox's opinion pretty highly. If you don't like that, I'm sorry. Don't flame in this thread please or I'll remove all relevant information, post it to a fresh copy, and leave this copy to rot in the basement. I'd like to, actually, to move the attachment further up.
As to the 'depth' of Skulk or Fade or Lerk bites... download the map and try it out yourself. Just rember to cl_pitchup 0 and cl_pitchdown 0 before biting to make sure they're perfectly horitonzal bites, no up or down at all. :-)
As to JP Marines in vents... I'll see about updating the map to support such a test, though it can't be tested by a single person unfortunately, needing a pair to check.
After making that point, SF thanked wolf for doing such a good job instead of whining or demanding it be "fixed."
Honestly, what the hell is your problem people?
On a related note: Wolf, awesome job. Thanks for your work.
~G'day <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
might be because I'm a playetester, mabye they think i'm 'elitest' or some other crap, perhaps its because I get too defensive when people say things without putting any research into it first.
Its been happening since NS was released. People assume this or that is unblanced untill someone learns a new strategy and then it becomes nerfed over night.
I also have no respect for anyone who comes to these forums just to rag on NS, a feature or Flayra. They dont see what he went/goes through to make this mod. It seems like they have no respect for the man and he puts everything he can into this game. Hell, as much as I did play NS and see him struggle through it and the little arguements we all had from time to time, I bet pales in comparison to the actual crap hes been through and I wish people would seriously just cut the guy a break. Hes been trying to 'fix' NS since its been released. Personaly, minus the unforseen bugs and changes made before the release I would have loved to see it unchanged.
When I first got into play testing NS, I suppose you could say I was your typical gamer and mainly just played to play. Figure I'd give an idea or two when I could and it would be all good ..
Then during one play test I guess you could say I blew up. There was a major grenade imbalace and the marines were spamming them like crazy despite it. I even started yelling at Flayra at one point. He then said something that put me in my place and changed my views on my play testing status, playing style and NS in general. I need not tell you what was said, but I saw how much Flayra loved NS ... and I find it down right disrespectfull when people come to the forums and spout stupid things or post 'facts' about balance, based on a game they played for a week ...
Or posts saying a certain weapon is unbalanced, and being the only proof they have is the game they just played where they "totaly bit the **** out of that guy and he didnt die! omgz h4x!!1"
But, they can hate all they want, it still wont change who I am or what I do. It just makes me skip their message when I see their name - I try not (believe it or not) to turn the forums into a flaming mess, but at times it does happen and in most cases I just opt out of the forum and let them believe what they want.
/me shrugs
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<--[-] yep, thats trying to be skulk :) The [-] shows how the hitbox is now
<-[-]- and this is how I would like it to be. Seems better to me, also skulks couldn't hide inside of buildings so well anymore
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I compleatly get it all
explenation for alot
meens that it is nearly imposible to chomp a marines
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People. The government funds education programs for a reason, so you can take advantage of them and not come off as a <b>*explitive deleted*</b> when you call someone "intelligent" and fail to spell it correctly.
*shudder*
As for the hitboxes, thanks for testing. All it does is reinforce what we already knew, that something was wrong. And now, it gives us a handy way to counter it. So thank you WolfWings, I think holding crouch is a lot easier than biting "down". And you'd think someone would take the thousands of yelling/bitching posts on the boards a little more seriously than that. If 200 people say something is wrong, there's a good chance that it is, and at the very least, it should be looked at, keeping in mind that most casual players are NOT proficient in Worldcraft, or scripting, or coding, or any of the neat tools that are used in testing things, not dismissed as whining because a certain admin liked the mod the way it was.
Was that line:
Flayra: "I urge you to leave your critic duties behind for a bit and instead, create something then tell me about it, so that I may leave a giant poo on it in a public place."?
Also, now that we've got the vent stuff cleared, let's see about some miscellaneous questions...
1) From my understanding of Wolf's analysis, when you're hanging below a horizontal plane (ie: the ceiling of the vent), your aim is offset upwards. But what happens if you're hanging on a vertical plane (ie: ladder)? Does your aim also get offset upwards by the same number of units; in which case you would have to aim closer to the ladder if you were underneath, trying to bite the feet of a 'rine?
2) Likewise for wall walking on vertical planes, what if you're on top, trying to bite down on top of a head of a marine? Does that mean you need to aim even lower than directly down, which is obviously impossible?
3) And what about if you're in mid air? I'm assuming there's no problem here, as there's no hanging involved.
4a) Lastly, with the wall walk aim offset, is it a translation of the origin of the bite upwards (ie: the angle remains the same, but where the bite occurs is above/outside of the skulk), or is it actually an X amount of degrees rotation upwards (ie: the bite originates from the skulk's mouth, but the angle at which it bites at is affected)?
4b) If the offset is a translation and not a rotation, couldn't it be possible to abuse this quirk? I mean, hang below the Docking Wing 01 bridge or any thin floor and magically bite marines as they walk over it.
6) Is parasite affected by the aim offset? Is that why if you're hanging on a ceiling, it's a bit difficult to parasite someone? Or does Anavrin simply suck at aiming?
If you need someone to help you test, let me know.
But to answer you directly:
Whenever you are 'wallclimbing' your attack is offset upwards by around 8 units. I haven't gone back and re-checked down to the unit yet.
This is a basic modification to your attack location, parasite appears to be affected the same way, as well as bite. This may also explain the difficulty with getting Leap to do damage, is that you can 'push' against someone, but are possibly having the damage inflicted 'over their heads' at the same time.
If you are in mid-air, I am unsure if the bug still manifests as there's no feasable way to test it. All I know is that turning off wallclimb all the time when not actively using it seems to solve a lot of problems, making Leap, Bite, and Parasite easier.
And yes, I believe this bug is also what causes Skulks to be able to bite upwards through thin floors into marine structures and marines themselves, as it would be consistant-changed behavior then.
alias +skulkattack "+duck; +attack"
alias -skulkattack "-attack; -duck"
bind MOUSE1 +skulkattack
Of course you will need to "bind MOUSE1 +attack" when you play something other than skulk <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Also, this attack will always drop you off the wall when you press MOUSE1. For those times that you need to attack when on the wall (opening grates), I just bind a different key to +attack (i.e. bind g "+attack"). It's been working great for me.