Is 2 Gorgs Soo Bad?
DanDaMan
Join Date: 2002-03-19 Member: 335Members
Join Date: 2002-03-19 Member: 335Members
Now I know this has been discussed tons, but I've been screamed at yelled at and sworn at by players soo often for going as a second gorg in a 20 person server. They seem to think that this is the worst possible sin for an alien to commit. Now I understand where they get their logic from, atleast partially, but 2 gorgs aint that big of a deal.
I usually play on 20+ servers, but lets just assume that theres only 8 aliens. That means that when there is 1 gorg he will get 3/10 of the resources 7 shares to the skulks, 3 shares to the gorge. Now imagine that there are 2 gorgs. Now each gorg will get 3/12 resources. It aint that big of a difference and theres a big advantage. Do some math and this means that each gorg is only losing about 12% of their possible resources on an 8 person server. It aint that big of a deal if you consider that you now have 2 gorgs, which get a combined total of 1/2 (6/12) of the teams resources. Yes it may take you a tiny bit longer to get the first res up. But now you will have 2 res instead of just 1 res up. having an early 2 res nozzles instead of 1 will balance out that meager 12% resource loss early on and 1 gorg can save for the hive, the other can build defences and stuff
I usually play on 20+ servers, but lets just assume that theres only 8 aliens. That means that when there is 1 gorg he will get 3/10 of the resources 7 shares to the skulks, 3 shares to the gorge. Now imagine that there are 2 gorgs. Now each gorg will get 3/12 resources. It aint that big of a difference and theres a big advantage. Do some math and this means that each gorg is only losing about 12% of their possible resources on an 8 person server. It aint that big of a deal if you consider that you now have 2 gorgs, which get a combined total of 1/2 (6/12) of the teams resources. Yes it may take you a tiny bit longer to get the first res up. But now you will have 2 res instead of just 1 res up. having an early 2 res nozzles instead of 1 will balance out that meager 12% resource loss early on and 1 gorg can save for the hive, the other can build defences and stuff
Comments
its jus CRUCIAL you dun have two gorges in the begining because they hafta get as much res as possible for early res towers and chambers.... therefore two gorges WILL slow down resource gathering... later on... when skulks reach 33/33 res... and ur one of those skulks, u can go gorge and cap a few res towers..... dun waste to making OCs if u wanna second gorge.. u hafta CAP resources and get around 2 more so u going gorge wil not ruin the team.... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
But anyways, the resources are not the only thing about 2 gorges. A gorge will not likely be harassing the marines, meaning one less skulk.
But, on the other hand, with 2 gorges you don't have to be as careful. One could be a forward healer.
Pros and cons...
Hmm... This game really has some tactical elements <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
One gorge is pleanty, thanks.
Even better when u have 3 hives. babbler attack heheheh sic em.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>(until at least AFTER the first hive has FINISHED building - preferably they should wait until people have started going fade) </span>
-It means that there are fewer people attacking the marines. Every skulk counts, and in an 8v8 game if you have 2 gorges that is 25% of your team OUT of the action. That is bad in the best of times and the marines will be able to take advantage of that.
-In most cases the two gorges will NOT coordinate their efforts, and as such you'll end up with bits of two different strategies. In the early game this usually means death.
-A single gorge can better coordinate team efforts, much like the commander does. If he is building in a particular area he can keep the team informed and call for backup if needed
-As noted, 2 gorges on an 8 player team will collect 50% of the team resources, instead of one gorge collecting 30% of the team resources. That extra 20% is not given to the other alien players, which means they have to wait LONGER before they have enough to go fade
-With one gorge when the aliens max out their res, the one gorge will get the overflow and be able to get a lot done. With 2 gorges the slower resource flow means the aliens take longer to max out, notwithstanding the fact the other gorge won't max out.
-It WILL delay building of the hive. Using your 8v8 example, with one gorge in an 8v8 game, they will collect 30% of the resources. If there are 2 gorges, the same gorge will only collect 25% of the resources. So if you assume 3RTs, the team will receive 65 res/min. That means each of two gorges will receive ~16 res/min as compared to one gorge receiving ~20 res/min. If you do the math that means it takes a solo gorge ~4 minutes to save 80 res for a hive while it will take one (of two) gorges ~5 minutes to save for that same 80 res hive. While that is only a difference of a minute, in the early game a minute can mean EVERYTHING. (In a 12v12 the delay is slightly longer by about 15 seconds)
When everything is said and done, I'll stand by my opinion that one gorge is best in the early game. Only once people start going fade do I think there should possibly be a second gorge in larger (10v10 and up) games.
Regards,
Savant
You better also back up your opinion with hard facts and not supositions. It seems to be a consensus that 1 gorge til 3-4 res are up is the best way to play aliens. While I can understand having 2 gorges on a 20 player team, I can't see having 2 on an 8 player team until AFTER the hives is put up. Once the hive is up all the res will be split between the 2 gorges (as long as no one went lerk) meaning that 2 hive locations can be secured with little to now slowdown.
After the hive is up I'd suggest one gorge go follow the lerks that appear and become battle gorges. You can provide a forward healing spot for the skulks and lerks and be protected by umbra while doing so. That way you maximise the harrassment of the marines and get some forward OCs DCs/MCs/SCs placed as well.
1 gorges until you get atleast 4 resources towers, or the second hive starts.
anyone can gorge if they have 33 resources to tap a res nozzle and re skulk.
and in the server i play in its pretty much understood. except for some people who feel they must gorge no matter how many exist already..
You can still win with more than one gorge. An extra gorge also opens up a few new and interesting strategies. After the second hive is started a second gorge is almost always a good idea on a large (8+) alien team. Once the second hive is up, a battle gorge can greatly assist your warriors by providing healing on the front lines and more important by throwing down webs at the feet of your enemies.
If you want to try new things with a cooperative team, go ahead. However, until someone can show me otherwise, I recommend the highly competitive players looking to win stick with a single gorge until that second hive is started.
Back when I used to play as a gorge a lot, it seemed like I'd always be just about to build a hive or something, when gradually it begins to dawn on me that resources aren't coming in as fast as they used to. *Tab* Oh, that explains it. We're a 6 person team and there's 4 @#$%ing gorges. I yell at them. They ignore me. The rest of the team helps me yell at them. Eventually, one or two of them go skulk. One of them, the bonna fide noob, will no doubt get killed off soon by the marines as he wanders into their base and starts spitting acid at their original resoruce tap. The other one's just being an **** and builds one sensory chamber, then leaves the server.
After this happens to your team 50 or 60 times, it becomes standard procedure to collectively scream at anyone when you see them in a coccoon during the first few minutes of the game. Some people might even use a bot to start chanting "No gorges. Don't go gorge. We only need one gorge!" every time a new player joins the server.
I suppose some players raised under these conditions might not realize that in a 20-player game, 2 gorges might just be okay after all. I certianly didn't, my first time.
But games are fluid. And the rule that a second gorg is only acceptable after second hive is started is a rule to be questioned. Especially in bigger 20+ games.
Both aliens and marines will try to secure as many hives as possible. If the marines are really good they might even try to secure two hives at once. And do it succesfully and early into the game.
If your team has competent skulks then one gorg might very well be enough. If not, well a second gorg is useful for giving the marines a hard time with buildings, thus taking some of the burden off the skulks.
Its all about the situation and how the game goes. Your team can have res comming out their ears, but it wont help if the marines have 2 hives turreted beyond reckognition.
What really bothers me though is when players join a game and starts screaming about the gorg situation before they know whats going on.
Somewhat off-topic: Just as aliens need to be flexible I wish there were fewer comms out there who doesnt sell all the IPs if his first strategy fails.
1 gorge will ALWAYS, 100% of the time, get RPs faster than any other number of gorges.
This is fact. You cannot argue this.
And 12% (which is wrong, btw, its more like 25-35%) off your RP flow is enough to seriously **** you when you're used to dropping OC/OC/DC while staying at no RP. Cause about 3 RTs + capped skulks makes for about 6-7 RP a tick in an 8v8. That drops to about 3-4 once you have a second gorge.
The sole time you want multiple gorges, as stated, is when you have the 2nd hive up. Even then, its stupid, cause the marines will be tearing at one of your hives like madmen at this point (or else they should be), so you're gonna want to drop those OC/DC walls as fast as you can.
I've never seen a (good) clan scrim with multiple gorges, except while messing around/testing multiple gorges, so whatever. You always have stupid people in pubs, always, so just deal with multiple gorges or find yourself a pw'd server so you can play with players who know wtf they're doing.
"Oh damn they got fades!"
"Oh crap was that spores?"
"ONOS!?"
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This is fact. You cannot argue this.
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Absolutely true. But what good does it actually do you? Maybe that gorge could get a hive up slightly faster, but not as much other stuff can get built in total. In effect you're relying on the skill of your skulks to pin the marines down, as you'll be short of OCs and DCs around the map. A good marine team might be able to run straight into your undefended hive.
My preference has always been, and remains, for a 2nd gorge to come online after the first res tower has been capped. Then you can have 1 gorge near the starting hive, and 1 at the proposed 2nd hive. The 1st gorge can start saving for the hive <b>earlier</b> while the 2nd gorge goes around continuing to cap res pts. I don't like being a sole gorge. I can't be everywhere at once. The key is to have 2 cooperating gorges. More gorges also means more healing available - doubly important if you've not got def chambers first.
An alternative strategy I've seen recently is for 3 aliens to go gorge simultaneously as they hit 13, all drop a DC, then 2 go back to skulk. This works quite well, what with carapace being so unbelievably powerful.
The main problem I have is that "OMG only 1 gorge" has become another "rule" alongside "OMG def chamber first n00b" and "MOVEMENT not SENSORY" that guarantees arguments on a public server.
This is fact. You cannot argue this.
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Absolutely true. . <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, that's not quite true. If you go two gorges, once the gorges have built their first RT, then the income for each of the two gorges (at 3RT) is larger than the single gorge(at 2RT).
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First column is teamsize, second column is income for one gorge after building one RT (ie, 2RT), third column is income for each of two gorges after building their first RT (ie, three RTs). Third column is when the one gorge has finished building it, the fourth column the time when the two gorges has finished building it (in minutes). Fifth column is difference in seconds between one and two gorge building times.
04 14,20 14,10 3,54 4,26 43,33
05 14,14 14,83 3,72 4,37 38,93
06 14,10 15,42 3,86 4,45 35,31
07 14,07 15,90 3,98 4,51 32,29
08 14,04 16,30 4,07 4,57 29,74
09 14,02 16,64 4,16 4,61 27,55
10 14,00 16,93 4,23 4,65 25,67
11 13,98 17,18 4,29 4,69 24,02
12 13,97 17,40 4,34 4,72 22,57
13 13,96 17,59 4,39 4,74 21,29
14 13,95 17,77 4,43 4,77 20,14
15 13,94 17,92 4,47 4,79 19,11
16 13,93 18,06 4,50 4,81 18,18
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As can be seen, unless you are playing a 4v4 game, once the first RT's are down, two gorges has an advantage in income.
Of course, the single gorge has an advantage in already-earned resources as he put down his single RT faster, but as teamsizes goes up, that advantage goes down and at the same time the advantage in income for the two gorges goes up.
Frankly, the main reason not to have 2 gorges is the loss of a skulker up front. 2 gorges will put up a 2nd hive as fast or even faster than a single gorge IF they can build 2 RTs each (ie, for a total of five). The fastest possible way would be to go 2xRT, 2xRT, one gorge /kills himself, the other gorge builds hive.
Also, with the 1.04 requirement to build 3 DC's as quickly as possible, it is better to have two gorges go 2xRT,2xDC,DC/RT rather than a single gorge going RT-DC-DC-DC, as long as you are playing 8v8 or bigger.
I have this nice little <a href='http://www.dtek.chalmers.se/~matso/resmdl.xls' target='_blank'>spreadsheet</a> you can play around with, though it is a bit hard to understand. I'd clean it up, but 1.1 will see a complete redesign of the resource model anyhow, so I don't think I'll bother.
Once the second gorge got near base, 2 skulks protected the gorge while he built some OC and DC in front of base (eclipse). The OCs slowed the marines down even further, allowing the first gorge to get the second hive while the marines were pinned (we made sure they didn't have any phase gates left).
Once we had teh second hive, the frontline gorge webbed everything he could while the first one capped any reminaing RN. It was only a short time later we had the third hive (we had to take it back, but marines couldn't get there to defend it). Once that happened, it was endgame and a short walk in the park.
Btw, the marines were not bad. They had a plan and moved as a team, so they didn't loose due to a bad commander or lack of teamwork.
I'm strongly in the "Only One Gorge" camp, because when I play alien I insist on gorging due to my lack of faith in public server gorges. I also bring much needed coordination skills to the alien teams I play on (if I'm in the mood).
Someone else listed the primary points -- but they all add up to a strong argument for one gorge. I.e. faster early-game building, skulks get fades faster, more firepower on the field...
And in my experiance, the odds of getting a second gorge on MOST servers with any skill at all is quite rare. I usually see newbies gorge because they want to build OC's at the first hive a few minutes into the game (to secure our loss...).
I'd rather have a single skilled gorge, and thats why I constantly yell at anyone in GEST mode not to gorge <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Eidal
To all the gorges: get that carapace up early, its vital... anyone who dis agrees has not played skulk enough to see how effective carapace is, it transforms 1 skulk into the fighting power of 2 or 3 non carapaced skulks.
Really you should build defences after 2nd hive is growing.
To all the gorges: get that carapace up early, its vital... anyone who dis agrees has not played skulk enough to see how effective carapace is, it transforms 1 skulk into the fighting power of 2 or 3 non carapaced skulks.
Really you should build defences after 2nd hive is growing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hate people who always play D>M>S. I try not to say it often, but I hate being bossed by some newbie.
With the new "gain more defence with carapace per Defense chamber" it is essential to get 3 defense chambers up for those skulks who cannot hide. If you're playing on a pub, this means get them up, fast, gorges, otherwise you'll lose because the skulks charge and go "why are you killing me? I'm soo leet when I can take 15 more shots and can reach you and bite you once when running straight at you, instead of hiding somewhere, keeping the marine from getting there, or thinking at all"
[/rant] If this is too flamey, I blame my posting/reading the B-hopping thread, and please edit accordingly.
[edit] sometimes those "random O-chambers" aren't so random after all (especially if all the skulks are running around like armadillos on highways, asking to get hit), just bare with the gorge (if he's a newbie he might and will make mistakes) [/edit]
Dunno how you did your math but i based it on how the resources are shared on an 8 alien team. 1 gorge =3/10 of team resources. 2 gorges=3/12 of team resources. That's .3 and .25 in decimal terms. 0.25/0.3=about 0.83. That means that 2 gorges wiill each get 83% of the res that 1 gorge will get. So the loss is about 17% (sorry not 12%) but it definitely isn't 25%-35%. And that's not considering the fact that 2 gorges will build more resource towers than 1 gorge which will almost double the total resource income as soon as they start putting up resource twoers so that in fact each gorge is getting more resources than 1 gorge would get.