Mandatory Draft And Men Vs. Women Draft

Inuss · February 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">1st post - wow...er 2nd?</div> Well I am a little worried about this whole matter over drafting. I'm right around the target range to be shipped out over seas in case of a full scale war which is a little fightening.

I would disagree with the mandatory draft unless there was a full scale war + EXTREME shortage of soldiers, which shouldn't happen soon.

Concerning the issue of Women being drafted in the war, I would say yes, draft them too, only in smaller numbers. There have been several revolutionary movements for women to have the same rights as men and now that they are equal, they SHOULD carry equal duties. Nowadays since we are all created equal under the constitution of the USA, women are gaining respect and power along with men in jobs and life. This is great, but to have several women suddenly jump out of the boat to war, using the excuse that they are women gives me my reason to point that men and women should be drafted. If they are drafted though, I would say that they should be drafted in smaller numbers to ease this change into the war.

These are my opinions, don't praise me or hate me. That is not what I am here for, I am here to support the USA and work for peace. God Bless America.

Oh...by the way if I do get drafted, I hope all this time playing NS and other mods helps me in combat...other wise I have just wasted hundreds of hours of my life...but I had fun!

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'>

Mart · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I would say yes, draft them too, only in smaller numbers</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Erm... Doesn't that negate men and women being equal?

Inuss · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mart @ Feb 3 2003, 09:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I would say yes, draft them too, only in smaller numbers</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Erm... Doesn't that negate men and women being equal?  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
women are currently allowed to join certain organizations voluntarily, but they are not allowed to engage in combat (why I don't know). Quick change leads to the worst, in the end, men and women should both be drafted in equal numbers. This is a reletively new concept, if it changes too fast, complications could arise.

Redford · February 2003

I have crazy bad eyesight, have the physical tone of a kitten, and love computers. I really doubt the millitary would have use for any of my skills, when most draftees were chosen because the generals needed someone to "die for their country" other then them.

Being physically inept can be a good thing. ^^

Comprox · February 2003

Thankfully I live in Canada, and have never been alive when conscription has been brought into act. I believe it should only be brought into place when a nations own soveriengty is in danger, not because you want to go over and kick someone elses butt. Now, if that other nation has nukes trained on you, and you are running low on supplies, ok.

As for men and women being equal, I don't men or women should be conscripted that don't meet certain fitness requirements. I mean, I'm a damn good runner, but Im a long distance runner. Meaning, I am scarwny, and if a bag full of supplies for strapped on my back, I would fall over from the weight most liekly <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'> People should be used nost effciently, but the strongest on the lines (men or women), keep the brains around to make plans, and others can help by making stuff. Everyone should contribute equally, if a war is needed to be fought only.

Arby · February 2003

Females being the more physicaly fit gender, why shouldnt they be able to fight?

Windelkron · February 2003

IMO, if the feminists and whatnot want equality, they have to take the bad for the good. I grew up disbelieving common "chivalry" or "ladies first" ethics, whatever you call it. I resent that women have emotional and legal power in relationships. What if only non-white people were drafted, and white people had to volunteer to join? Would that be constitutional, or egalitarian, or anything? <b>No.</b>

Sirus · February 2003

First, I don't think I would want to go over seas and kill some people, Sure in a game maybe but not in real life, I wouldn't want to think with one pull of a trigger I can't not only kill someone but destroy the lives of all the people who loved him.

Im not anti-war, its a necessary evil. But I couldn't pull myself to kill someone unless my friends and family were in danger.

Also, women are allowed to fight, they just can't participate as ground troops. Frankly, I don't like the draft for men or women.

And BTW, Thanks Comprox, I'm not sure if it was you alone that helped create this section, but I'm thankful never the less.

Also, you might consider my trouble making post here too. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>

JasonBostwick · February 2003

I disagree with women serving in combat positions, not on the basis that the women would not be able to perform in a combat situation, but due to the fact that the male members in their unit would not be performing at their best.

The majority of the army is made of young men, just out of highschool. The bulk of our armed forces is composed of the horniest, most sex starved segment of the population outside of the #evolutionarily channel. There is an inherant sense of machoism in the forces, to be better than all the other men, the competition, and the formation of a bond within the squads to work as a coherent team. Were women to be introduced into this nice pit of hormones, I can't think the results would be that great. Men treat women differently then they treat men, and in a combat situation, may react differently if a certain soldier is male or female. Who is to know if a leader would be as willing to sacrifice a beautiful young woman in a dangerous situation as he would were the soldier male?

At the moment, it is wisest to keep women out of infantry combat positions, but I think that women should definitely be drafted in as equal numbers (were there even to be a draft) into positions in the airforce, navy, or the armoured regiments of the Army.

Inuss · February 2003

Did not mean to imply that I like killing things if someone was picking up that vibe. I know NS is just a game and I do not enjoy the thought of killing someone in real life.

Oh, by the way Comprox, thanks for getting rid of those early posts, this stuff is serious.

Arby · February 2003

What about gays in the military BoZmAn20? You cant say your against that. Sure, the physical attraction is there, they might perform differently, but thats the same for women also...

TheEnigma · February 2003

Gah, I say that under the US Constitution, everyone's created equal. Feminists have argued for centuries to get sufferage, equal employment, etc, and frankly, just because it involves getting hurt, doesn't mean that women should be exempt from their equality. Women have a higher tolerance for pain, which in a war is a good thing, anyways.

Basically, if women can enlist voluntarily, and they have equal rights outside of drafts, I see no reason why a draft should discriminate.

Mart · February 2003

In reference to the subtopic title. Technically this is the fifth post. First being the FAQ. Second being the 'OMG FIRST POST' post. Third being The Fish Post1. Fourth being The Fish Post2. Which you can pay your respects to here: <a href='http://www.evolutionarily.org/forum/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=454' target='_blank'>R.I.P The Fish Post.</a>

Helic · February 2003

in israel all citizens have to serve a certain ammount of time...sounds good eh?

but most americans are tubbeh and can't do shizz0r

Sirus · February 2003

In regards to homosexuals in the military I'm not inclined to agree that they should be there, but I suppose it would be ok. However, they stop out of line with any obscene gestures or the such, I'm sure you guys know what I'm talking about, then they should get kicked out of the military. I don't believe it would be fair to put hundreds of soldiers in a terribly awkward position with gays in the military. I suppose the "Don't ask, Don't tell" policy will have to suffice. Keep it private, there's really no need for openly homosexual men inside the military. It would be the equivalent of placing a man inside a women's dorm, so to say, it wouldn't be correct to do such a thing for obvious reasons. It's no different then having a openly **** man sleep and take showers with heterosexual men. I would stress the importance of keeping such things to yourself, unless your looking for trouble.

Dubers · February 2003

If there was a draft in Britain there would be some serious riots.

I know I would riot for one for the simple fact that nobody chooses when I die. By conscription they are effectively asking me to kill myself and that’s ****!

I'd be quite happy to sit in a jail cell for the duration of any major war. Better than being dead or worse seriously disfigured.

To the issue of women soldiers:

I'm not a sexist!! But women aren’t mentally equipped to deal with combat situations. Men have the ability to concentrate on a task and block out distractions. Yes the do suffer from mental conditions but this is after not during the situation. Women can’t do this as well as men and as a result hesitate. Hesitation gets people killed. Dead soldier = non effective soldier. They have done LOADS of research on this and that’s for example why the British army won’t allow female combat units. Even though they have a woman royal marine commando she isn't allowed to fight alongside her regiment.

To the issue of war in general:

War is never worth it but a fighting a war for the principles of the west is morally wrong. Look beneath the surface and you will see that war is jus a political moneymaking racket. The leaders are the kingpins and the soldiers are the gangsters bulling people out of money. No war has ever been fought for simple freedom or democracy. It is always greed and selfishness.

I ask you a question! What has driven people like osama bin laden to become what they are? Are they completely insane? No! They are generally very educated intelligent people. So is it a result of decades of western oppression?

AllUrHiveRblong2us · February 2003

Studies say a lot of things bucko. Studies also say that men are stupider, live shorter lives, and are less fit than women.

TheEnigma · February 2003

Actually, women work better in a group, that is, as a team. With the military putting emphasis on squad/team/family-esque values, I'd think that one who can work the best under those conditions would then be more than suitable to do the job.

Dubers · February 2003

Yes they are better at working in teams BUT they arent emtionally or physically equipped to handle blown off legs n ****. A man can take a bullt in the chest and still get up for some more because of the chemicals his body pumps him with. Women arent built to do that but like you said they do have their advantages over men.

Men should do grunt work and women should do complicated stuff cos of their multitasking skills. But keep them out of combat roles.

Would you be able to handle looking at a woman with her legs blown off if you were a soldier?

Sirus · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>War is never worth it but a fighting a war for the principles of the west is morally wrong. Look beneath the surface and you will see that war is jus a political moneymaking racket. The leaders are the kingpins and the soldiers are the gangsters bulling people out of money. No war has ever been fought for simple freedom or democracy. It is always greed and selfishness.

I ask you a question! What has driven people like osama bin laden to become what they are? Are they completely insane? No! They are generally very educated intelligent people. So is it a result of decades of western oppression?

</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

You're treading into deep waters my friend. Principles of the West? Please clarify, but for now I will assume your speaking about the rumors of war. Also, when you speak of "the west" please understand that means Britain and Western Europe, including the US and Canada. The is the "western" civilizations, they share common cultures and religion, Christianity, Mostly protestant including a minority catholics, in regards to the quote en quote "religious folk" which seems like a stereotype...forgive me, back on topic. So when you say West lets just get it straight that you mean the above.

Principles of the West, or more accurately, as i believe the object of what you mean to be the West, the US, are worth fighting for. Yes, I cannot say that the US is only fighting wars because they are so idealistic that they are going to free all the oppressed people, because that's not completely true, yet the point remains that you won't find the US venturing into any non-opressed countries, it could be argued this is per chance, but I sincerely doubt it. The basic doctrine of the US is that Freedom is worth fighting for, even if its not our own. I find it very difficult to disagree, especially since the US is by far the richest country, and it's a good thing that for the most part diverts effort into fighting wars to free countries.

When you say no war was fought for simple freedom and democracy, the Revolutionary War comes to mind. And don't point the finger and say the government was behind it, because...there was no government, unless you mean the Continental Congress which had very little power, and I remind you, met in the woods, [Sarcasm]those aristocrats and their money! [/Sarcasm]

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I ask you a question! What has driven people like osama bin laden to become what they are? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>greed and selfishness</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Are they completely insane?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Attacked the most powerful country, genocide on thousands of their citizens, and create chemical and biological weapons that do more damage to civilian targets rather than military. Signs point to yes.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So is it a result of decades of western oppression?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Oppression...Oppression?? What oppression? Unless you mean protection, because the west is no way oppressing them, they are not impeding on their lives, they are actually giving them back their lives. If you think that any dictator or facist or any of the above reflect the opinions and beliefs of the people they rule then you are simply wrong. The reason Osama Bin Laden and the such hate the US so much is because of the ideals, and the power. We are a threat to him, plain and simple, that's why they hate the US.

Dubers · February 2003

I would argue this point further but this is not the topic for it so if you wanna discuss this more lets start a new topic.

Sirus · February 2003

I'd like the my previous to only contain one response rather than mix up the replies so I'm going to post again, forgive me.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Would you be able to handle looking at a woman with her legs blown off if you were a soldier? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I don't think I could handle looking at a man with his legs blown off if i was a soldier.

Admitted, women do not have the muscles, men have the testosterone and such. Also, admitted, women are probably not as emotionally built.

Women have a greater attention to detail and are actually better shots then men in regards to accuracy.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>A man can take a bullt in the chest and still get up for some more because of the chemicals his body pumps him with.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Not necessarily. Also, Chemicals? You mean the adrenaline your adrenal glands are putting into your system? Women have them too. And you'll often see mothers go through extraordinary circumstances when their child is at risk. Probably not a good point to push.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Actually, women work better in a group, that is, as a team. With the military putting emphasis on squad/team/family-esque values, I'd think that one who can work the best under those conditions would then be more than suitable to do the job.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I work extremely well in a group, even in daily life I put other people in front of my needs, and even in NS I will the first person behind you watching your back, or the first person to save your back, and the first person to be willing to do the more boring job if it so required of me.

In general, I would say that it would probably be a bad idea to draft women, men would be easy to give a rifle to and have him shoot, I can't think of one girl in any of my classes that could just pick up a rifle and start fighting. I won't venture to say that men are better than women in military situations because I simply don't know. But i woud venture to say that at a moments notice it would be wiser to only draft men because of the fact that naturally we are stronger and probably more physically capable, and putting untrained women into the military would probably do more harm then good with unforseen casualties.

Smoke_Nova · February 2003

First off *blesses his odd-shaped feet, his only-child status and various other factors that keep from being drafted*

Men and women should be drafted equally, but women should be kept in a secondary combat line and serve in female-only combat groups. If anyone has read <i>God Emperor of Dune</i>, women are perfectly capable of fighting, it's just that at it's core, a male army is based entirely upon releasing stored sexual urge.

I.E. Male draftee's are put into the G.I. (General Infantry, y'know, GRUNTS) and other such services where they go and they rush and they die and they kill. Meanwhile, the female draftee's (serving in a female-only combat group) serve as pilots, drivers, Mobile Armor crews and possibly field-medics. Make it so they do not have to kill except when directly threatened.

And Thank you Comprox/Admin/Mod's for the new Thread Section

Dubers · February 2003

Can you really not be drafted if your an only child??

/me gets a big knife ready to kill his siblings

Sirus · February 2003

Only male Child, Almost positive, during World War 2 the US decided to enforce this policy for future drafts, if any. I'm guessing its because that the last male is the only hier, and having you killed would destroy all future bloodlines. So pretty much, they can't kill off your family.

Dubers · February 2003

Ah well i'll jus be an objector to the war and thrown in prison.

Dezmodium · February 2003

When the government comes to my house and puts a gun to my face in the name of "freedom" to make me go fight in a war I don't beleive in; that's when I've had enough, buddy. I'm not dying for any cause but my own.

As far as woman fightin in combat I loosely quote Newt Gengrich(I could care less how to spell his name):

"If woman served in the military and their vaginas got infected then they would be like, "Oh, my **** is infected. Sorry guys, wars over. I have to go home a recuperate."

Needless to say I don't think that woman are exempt. If they are stupid enough to join, they are stupid enough to die.

Sirus · February 2003

Simply put. I don't agree with the draft either.

Zergling · February 2003

first off, i didn't read this thread, just browsed it.

There already exists a draft, it is an economic draft. The majority of the military is made up of poor minority youth, who view it as an alternative to life in the ghettos and barrios. This doesn't mean that there aren't some hardcore elite soldiers, but that the majority are there for economic reasons.

Also women and men may have the same legal rights, but women's oppression is inherent in the institution of the family that is a cornerstone to the conservation of capitalist production.

Speed_2_Dave · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sirus @ Feb 3 2003, 10:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> In regards to homosexuals in the military I'm not inclined to agree that they should be there, but I suppose it would be ok. However, they stop out of line with any obscene gestures or the such, I'm sure you guys know what I'm talking about, then they should get kicked out of the military. I don't believe it would be fair to put hundreds of soldiers in a terribly awkward position with gays in the military. I suppose the "Don't ask, Don't tell" policy will have to suffice. Keep it private, there's really no need for openly homosexual men inside the military. It would be the equivalent of placing a man inside a women's dorm, so to say, it wouldn't be correct to do such a thing for obvious reasons. It's no different then having a openly **** man sleep and take showers with heterosexual men. I would stress the importance of keeping such things to yourself, unless your looking for trouble. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
whoa there. Just being homosexual doesn't mean he "can't" shower in communal showers.

[edit]I didn't know that word was censored, huh. Another difference is that this isn't prison, and there are rules that HAVE to be followed, otherwise you get courtmartialed[/edit]

I am completely honest when I say that I would not care if I was told one of the people I showered daily with was ****. I'd be a little nervous, but I'm pretty sure I can shake it off.

[Very on topic]A good example of an idealistic military situation: Starship Troopers (movie, since the book wasn't much better). Everyone showered <b>together</b>. <b>Everyone</b> showered together. Women and men <b>were</b> treated as equals. If we could treat each other as equals, then I see no problem with women and men serving in a military. Until that happens (oh, I give it till the destruction of the world as we know it), I would be against it. Personally I know 3 women that could stop a war with just their "evil eyes" (My mother, my 2nd girlfriend(ex, she's available guys...), and an english teacher).[/Very on topic]

Nice to have a discussion forum.

Onuma · February 2003

*These are my opinions - I live in the grand ol' US of A, so some things might not fit to people from foreign lands*

<b>As pertaining to the "Gays in the Military" question: </b>The old myth of "make a pass on your CO's and you'll be ejected from the military" is usually false. If you stake the claim "I am a homosexual and my military career should therefore be terminated" they will issue an <i>investigation</i>...yes they will dig deep and pull out the stops to make SURE you've had homosexual history, and if there is any doubt behind one's claim they will reject your claim and you will stay in the service to finish out your contract.
This information thanks to the Petty Officer who processed me a few weeks ago.

<b>As for Men vs. Women and the Draft in the Military: </b>As someone stated before, the Israeli armed forces have both men <u>and</u> women serving in every role available to any soldier. Since 1948 (perhaps earlier but this is when Israel was created as a Nation in modern times, not just an area or ancient kingdom of days past) Israeli women have been fighting alongside men equally, and it has not harmed their military performance one bit. Also in the USSR during WW2 many of the defenders of cities such as Stalingrad were female. Though on no scale equal to their male counterparts, women did play a serious role in combat at times, especially towards the end of the War. Women are perfectly capable in all aspects to be combat soldiers, and I feel that if a draft were called up once more (which it may be) women should also be activated, on a smaller scale then men though.
On the other hand, if all of the available men and women are called up to service then there would be massive economic gaps that would need to be filled in industry and business. During the second World War women took the jobs of men who went into the service and kept the U.S.A. alive.

<b>The Draft in general? </b>Well, I'm not a fan of the Draft in itself. My plan would be required service to be a *<i>citizen</i>* of the United States. Each and every capable individual should serve at least 6 months to 2 years of service. This mandatory contract would allow said individuals the right to speak out in their country, the right to vote, teach a greater level of moral and ethical values to a society which is losing them by the day, and always keep an ample supply of young soldiers to defend our ideals. If one does not serve in the military, they get NO right to vote, no welfare or government aid, no health benefits...they would just be another person working their job in society.

--

I am by no means a war monger, I am a very peaceful individual. But even as I dislike the fact that people must always fight, bicker, and make war on each other, I support the reasons to do so. I have thought long and hard about a great many solutions to this, and I have concluded that it is entirely within human (and all) nature to fight. War does not evolve, nor has it ever - the first tribes of neolithic men that ran into another tribe's home and stole their food and goods are no different than the fascist dictator who invades a neighboring country and takes their oil fields for his own...only the weapons and ways we go about fighting these wars change.

For those of you who are very religious, perhaps in the ways of Christianity or even Judaism and follow the Ten Commandments: Please do not follow up with the argument of "<b>Thou Shalt Not Kill.</b>" because this is a misinformation on the parts of 3500 years of translations. The original Commandment which is supposed to state "Thou Shalt Not Kill" really states "Thou Shalt Not <u>Murder</u>". Again this is a mistranslation from the egyptian, greek, and hebrew versions of the commandments over 3 and a half millennia. Would "God" (if you do not believe in this figure then insert your diety or whatever here - Allah for Islam, Oneness for taoism, Nature for some other religions, etc.) want one to not fight back if he were being attacked by whatever force, be it man or beast? <b>NO.</b> Killing is much different than murder...one murders for personal gain, pleasure or any number of reasons, but killing in self defense or in service for one's ideals is a whole different story.

<u>BTW</u> - I will be entering the US Army, on the 2nd of April, 2003, and am currently sworn into service.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to read my lengthy post. I hope that it helped open the eyes of some of you. If not this, at least I hope your mind will think a little more clearly about these issues because it really does concern everyone no matter what race or creed...war cannot be avoided.
I leave you with this quote:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The purpose of all war is ultimately peace.
--Saint Augustine </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Mandatory Draft And Men Vs. Women Draft

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