1.04 Aliens > Marines 14/14 Server

Kitfox · January 2003

On every map, in all situations aliens win 90% against marines. Now i under stand that in higher player servers its the other way around but, in small servers, such the one i aways join, marines are always at the mercy of aliens players. I really like to Command even though it is stressfull and difficult at times, but i still am having difficulty winning against aliens. I thought i just totaly sucked, but i noticed that every other commander loses constantly as well. Mostly I only win when i have an excelent team that is almost flawless or the aliens have less players then the marines. Other wise the out come of this game is best decribed like so

Beging Of game
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'>

End of Game
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'>

I'v noticed that it only takes 2 or 3 skilled alien players to win, while it takes almost full team of skilled marines to win a game.

Anyway the point of my jibber jabbering is to ask guys if u know the best strat in small servers v1.04. In 1.03 i won 3/5 times by jampacking everything around a comm chair (placed with space for marines to move around freely and fairly artistic in fashion), so that a minimum number of sentry's could protect me, and after words i'd have my team move towards a hive while building un protected rts on the way. After words seiging the hell out of the second hive using hidden tfs (kind of cheap i know but in 1.03 aliens always used the gorge money cheat thing). The problem is that this strat doesn't work anymore. So hopefully u guys can give me some pointers.

Brett_Erilane · January 2003

Uh... I can't really comment on public servers. But JP rush wins every time in scrimmages.

FlatlineUTD · January 2003

The best strat (even though I'm not too fond of it) I've found on pub servers with small numbers of not-so-good players is to relocate to a Hive location immediately after the game starts.

When you don't have many teammates, you need to focus on as few areas simultaneously as possible. By relocating right off the bat, you're denying the aliens an important location, while preventing you from having to keep two areas under constant watch.

You can't always have a Handyman in really small games, so when you're in the Hive, you'll have to use turrets. This isn't a big deal, because you'd be using them anyway if you were just locking down the Hive.

<b>EDIT:</b> Clan matches are a different story, I won't even get into them here, other than fast-tech rush = pwn

Kitfox · January 2003

Relocation is extremely difficult, most of the times my marines get eaten before we even get half way to the first hive. Most problems are that aliens rush and marines are relaxing and smoking joints at the beging of the game, till they get bitten in the balls by a skalk.

FlatlineUTD · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kitfox @ Jan 27 2003, 09:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Relocation is extremely difficult, most of the times my marines get eaten before we even get half way to the first hive. Most problems are that aliens rush and marines are relaxing and smoking joints at the beging of the game, till they get bitten in the balls by a skalk.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
If that's your problem, you need to look around and find better pubs. Only marines that are totally new to the game don't know the 'two build, rest cover' philosophy. If they're waiting around, then the relocation has already failed. To work successfully, the marines have to immediately rush out to a hive, leaving at most 2 guys behind in addition to the commander until he can throw down a CC and some IPs in the new base.

I never said relocations were easy, and I don't like them at all. But given your situation, that seems to be the best idea.

Elric · January 2003

Hmm, I haven't had much of a hard time winning as a marine. Mostly I try and put as much pressure on as possible and cap what I can. It's a contest between how good the aliens are at finding the rt's and killing the rushes. A couple early shotguns, a few mines, etc, do wonders.

trav · January 2003

i haven't played on 1.04 much, but i have noticed skulks pwnzering much more than usual

my best working strategy has been the guerrilla cap strategy, get as many of the low traffic (not checked often) res nodes towered asap, and push to get technology. locking down a hive isn't too important instantly as now most aliens can rush it easily, or just take the one you don't get.

remember that motion tracking works now, and it really gives your marines the advantage early up, so consider getting it before phase gates, which have been pretty nerfed now

Renmauzo · January 2003

Yeahh... jet pack + hmg rushing.. I've seen that twice last night.. It's really really lame.. Basically Marine abandon all attempts to secure hives and they cap the res near them and go for weapon upgrade, jetpack and armory upgrade asap.. I hate it.. Once a jetpacker is out.. They just spam ammo, hp all over the hive and watch that jetpacker alone killed it.. It could be stopped with properly placed Offense Chambers + Defenes Chambers under the hive.. But generally speaking it's difficulty and the alien has to see this coming early

Nupi · January 2003

1. Research tech faster, 2x or 3x gun damage should do the trick.
2. Or research armory.. 2x should be enough.

If you can focus your strategy to technology instead of something else, your making life little easier to your marines. Try it out. I just read some server logs (yeah..addicted) most marines where amazed how strong skulks are when they got full carapace.

Immacolata · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Brett Erilane @ Jan 28 2003, 03:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Uh... I can't really comment on public servers. But JP rush wins every time in scrimmages.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Doesn't that make scrimmages pretty dull? One thing that I dislike about the apparent "clanning" scene is that strategy seems to be onedimensional. You either jp rush or lose?

rebo · January 2003

Well clan games are generally win at all costs. Hence they will go for the optimum strategy that wins in the shortest amount of time. At present it seems JP rush is the optimum strategy. Later on in the games development hopefully we will see a number of strategies become viable.

Rather than call something lame i think its far more constructive to provide ideas how to overcome a percieved in-balance in a particular strategy.

Frogg2 · January 2003

The aliens can have a chance to win if they keep the marines res towers in check.

FlatlineUTD · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Immacolata @ Jan 28 2003, 05:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Brett Erilane @ Jan 28 2003, 03:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Uh... I can't really comment on public servers. But JP rush wins every time in scrimmages. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Doesn't that make scrimmages pretty dull? One thing that I dislike about the apparent "clanning" scene is that strategy seems to be onedimensional. You either jp rush or lose?  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Exactly why I don't ever plan to join a clan. The only viable options for the marines have always been something-rushes. The aliens play the containment game until they get two Hives, and the marines keep going after the main one.

Boring.

death1 · January 2003

So, is Kitfox saying that 14v14 is a 'small' server? Seems like if you grab 2 or 3 random nodes and secure a hive, you should be in a good position to enter the midgame with lots of money and upgrades to combat the 2-hive aliens. But I only play on tiny servers, 8v8 to 10v10.

-d$

Kitfox · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (death$ @ Jan 28 2003, 02:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So, is Kitfox saying that 14v14 is a 'small' server? Seems like if you grab 2 or 3 random nodes and secure a hive, you should be in a good position to enter the midgame with lots of money and upgrades to combat the 2-hive aliens. But I only play on tiny servers, 8v8 to 10v10.

-d$</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Ya i'm saying 14v14 is the small one right before teh middle one which is 16v16. Grabbing two or three random nodes isn't that easy cause aliens move around randomly they usually take out all unprotected nodes, and to protect a node usually takes a long time. Plus the thing that pisses me off the most is when i build a rt and every marine runs to build it, at which point a skulk comes around the back and takes every single one out. I can't stress enough how it's best when one person builds and the rest protect him.

So to narrow it down here, currently the ultimate strat (now that sieges are kind of nurfed, i can see them being used much less now) Is simply rush upgrades, specifically jps and hmgs, and some others if u have the chance, and constantly push the aliens. I belive that tracking is extremely good, but with the marines i play with it's like the totaly ignore it. I have to litterly tell them when an alien is comeing.

I'v been watching a few clan demos, (meaning only the 2 i saw in another post) and noticed that they do not protect thier main... is that a good idea, i'v tried that a bunch of times but rushes usually kill me of fast then.

Elric · January 2003

If you keep enough pressure on the aliens, they aren't likely to rush. If you are really worried about protecting your main, use a couple packs of mines spread out well. You'll have to give that to a smart marine though of course. The same goes for RT's. They'll take one down on occassion but if you have 2-3 more, it really isn't a problem. If it's out in the middle of nowhere, recycle it asap so you get most of the money back before the skulk kills it.

As for the "only one strat" thing, not really. Like any RTS, it boils down to 3 paths. You can power expand early, rush, or tech. Usually it's a combination of all of the above in different amounts. JP rushes don't always win in scrims, they do keep the aliens under pressure which in the end, is the best way to win an RTS no matter what game. You can sit back and try and tower areas but it's not usually as successful as putting some offense into the game. The best teams I've seen so far try to make the other team play their game whether marine or alien.

If you want to do a 2 hive lockdown, go for it but do it by trying to scare the aliens into the defensive. That's how I do it.

death1 · January 2003

ahhh, i see... 14/14 server, in your title. you mean a 7v7 game? It is more difficult to protect multiple locations and tech up against potential 2-hive aliens, I agree, with only 7 people on a side. Some of the questions you have aren't new, though... I'd suggest reading through these forums, there's a lot of useful information tucked away and plenty of debate on balance issues like # of players, etc.

good luck

-d$

ps - lockin down two hives early in 1.04 leaves your marine start very vulnerable to attack...

KMO · January 2003

I'd stress one important point that's not been mentioned in this thread. If you're not attacking their areas, then they have time to get together and organise an attack on yours.

You'd be amazed how less often your RTs etc go down if you're attacking them than if you're sitting back defending.

Kitfox · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (death$ @ Jan 28 2003, 04:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>ahhh, i see... 14/14 server, in your title. you mean a 7v7 game?

-d$
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Yes 7v7, 14 out of 14 players.

Okey thanks for your help guys. I just finished downloading NS dedicated and i'm gonna put it on my LAN, add some bots, and try out different strats. I know it's not like the real thing but maybe i can get a better understanding of the game.

izo · January 2003

My comm record is 1/15 no lie, sad truth is Im the best comm they will ever have. Its not you its them. All the smart people go alien because its an easy win on pubs. They tell you to go Marine if your a noob in the manual, well Id say its the other way around. Nothing more easier than being an alien, all you have to do is run around like a retard, then go fade when the time comes. All it takes is a remotely good gorge who knows the map.

One bit of advice though is never put a rt down when you see a marine at one, make him tell you he is there, even though you can see him, make him tell you. Otherwise its just another retard on your team, one that says nothing the whole game. Its all about communication, yet the more I communicate the worse we lose because if it at all looks like I know what Im doing, then they will stand around and not do **** for themselves.
God forbid that they will actually follow thier waypoints, they will most likely stand at an empty rt on the way, like I dont know thiers a rt there dumb-****.

I drop health on every player that needs it whether they ask for it or not, I give them ammo when they need it, they probably dont even know they need ammo, but I know that they do, thats how aware I am. And I drop all this **** on thier head while they are moving. Its like a game in in a game, see if you cant hit the jack-**** and win the prize of them still dieing.

The best game you can hope for is a good comm who is in the field, he most often can do his own thing (with regards to your strat) and win the game, all I have to do is listen to him and give him his buildings. Thats often the only way my team ever wins when we have a stupid comm, I have to be the comm in reality - but on the field. Id hesitate to say noob anymore, I think most people are just stupid. You can tell by how fast they dish **** out, if they are slow then they are "slow"(special:)

Be prepared to jump out of the comm and kill whatever is chewing your main, I dont even put up a tf anymore cause this is so effective, dont die though, 1-3 sulks should be pie, unless they are at your chair then forget it. I think one game I had to jump out 7 times cause my team was too stupid to aim or something who knows. I can kill a sulk 19 out of 20 times, double team is no problem either. What is the freaking deal people?
*Listen for a sulk*, if you hear one around the corner Do Not go around the corner, Backup! Its all about position. Give yourself distance.

To sum it up Dont go marine if your stupid- period, nobody* wants to comm your stupid ****. Whats ironic is that your probably too stupid to know your stupid.

/Times I said the word stupid , 8

Dream · January 2003

about the jp rush in clanscrim/match : I made a scrim last night on eclipse and the rushed us hmg/jp on the early ( i mean REALLY early ) we were starting in eclipse and we buildt in CC.. we enventually lost the hive in eclipse but with enough coordination and well placed OC/DC they never where able to kill our CC hive and we got every single RT they have been able the place. Sure you need coordination but that a clan match...
For our friend here change the server.. ive seen many noob marines and good aliens loose cuz they dont play up as a team and the noob on the marines side did... This game is teamplay not like rambo CS...

Firewater · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Brett Erilane @ Jan 27 2003, 09:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Uh... I can't really comment on public servers. But JP rush wins every time in scrimmages.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
[TE] tried to jet pack rush us last night, me and ackz took them down with lerk spikes.

Nothing always works.

Firewater · February 2003

double pizostizzles my bad.

borbil · February 2003

I hate how this game turned out.

1-Turrets go down so easily now you dont want to put some in anymore...so unless you siege that means no TF either.

2-The only way to win now is to rush, at least most of the time, which kills the fun really really quick.

3- It takes 3 res nodes, 1 hive, 3 d chambers and 3 move chambers for aliens to attain next to maximum power (Onos are getting useless as of now, unless you want to make your marines suffer longer) so that means = 66+80+42+42 = 230 res.

It takes 3 res nodes, a OB, a research fact w/all the upgrades, an armory/w upgrade, a prot lab/w upgrade (and im not counting the phase gates or TFS with turrets here either) for marines to be able to compete with Fades/w upgrades. That means = 66 + (25+ 2x120) + (25+35) + (35+25+50) = 501

And remember i didnt ad the count for TFS or Turrets AND NEITHER the price of the guns you buy your marines nor medpacks, scans, ammo, etc.

so thats Double the res just to be Equal, not to an onos but to fades with upgrades. And to all those who say they kill fades alone with lmgs, get close to a moderately good fade and youre dogmeat, thats it.

Dont forget marines get Ressources slower than Aliens too because you only have 1 pool for everyone.

I may have done some errors on the numbers, but still, if you add it up, its still double, and you get my point.

Marines just cant compete with Aliens, if you aint doing a rush, so why bother putting anything else in the game than JPS and HMGS?

This thing is getting more boring by the minute, Aliens have already the advantage of mobility(climbing up walls and airducks), speed, faster advance rate.....

Now you know whats funny? i usually play aliens...but i would REALLY like to play marines and have fun, it aint possible , it just aint, not in a pub, and not in a low to moderately good clan.

Things were still hot when you could siege a place without spotting but now...it makes sieges next to useless.

Oh well... i guess we will have to wait for another patch so that some interesting changes come up.

littlewild · February 2003

I do agree that on most small 7 a side to 8 a side pub servers, the aliens have an easy time winning. There is a couple time when some clan peoples joined the marines and still got ripped apart by random public aliens.

Epoch · February 2003

I know the feeling guys. I run a 6v6 (12 max) server (check the signature) and the Kharaa dominate on every map 75% of the time. I am distressed that the Marines hardly ever win on my server, but after some hardware upgrades I should be able to support a total of 16 players, which, I hope, will level the playing field.

There is a strategy that I have found works pretty well, especially on ns_eclipse, and I will share it here in hopes that it may improve your game.

I don't know what the technical definition of a 'rush' is, but I do not think this qualifies as one. It has two unique features in that <b>1</b> you don't take any hives and <b>2</b> you don't attack any hives.

I will use ns_eclipse as my example since I have had this strategy work most on this map.

Assuming the game is a full 6v6, you are flexible with how you go about doing this. The most effective way is to research motion tracking ASAP. Don't give out shotguns at the beginning, don't lay trip mines.

Have one or two men stay at the base and defend, and the rest need to move out together. Make sure your attack team knows what their objective is; this is a resource destruction mission. If you starve the Kharaa of their resources, you will not have to worry about Fades. Here is the theory:

Kharaa have 1 Gorge and 1 RT. If you can kill that Gorge and every RT he builds, the Gorge will have to <b>1</b> spend more money to evolve into a Gorge and <b>2</b> spend more money rebuilding resource towers instead of getting upgrade chambers and building hives.

Motion tracking will help you to hunt the Gorge. You tactic requires that your men know how to work together and shoot well, because they will be out on their own for a long time.

This strategy is flexible because you can win with a single resource tower. However, it often requires you to leave your base undefended. In this situation, the Kharaa have to decide whether to attack your undefended base or to protect their Gorge, RTs, and chambers.

After you have enough money, build and arms lab and start upgrading weapons. This will allow you to combat Skulks easier should they happen to get carapace.

Do not be afraid to drop a welder for the attack squad to use to take down chambers and RTs. In case you aren't aware, defense chambers also fall to a knife very quickly.

Once you have upgrades and have starved the Kharaa of their resources, take the hive.

To sum it up, send your best men running around the map killing the Gorge, knifing/welding RTs and preventing the Kharaa from obtaining the second hive while upgrading your own equipment. A group of 3 marines with level 2 LMGs can take out a hive easily.

I hope my post makes sense. I feel that I kind of threw this out unorganized. Obviously this strategy has some risks involved, but if you have some good shooters (you only need a few) and a commander that can think quickly it can work very well.

matso · February 2003

In 1.03, you had pretty balanced games at about the 6v6-9v9 range. Unfortunately, 1.04 was tested mainly on very large servers, 10v10 to 13v13 servers. At such large games, the marines are very powerful and easily beats any alien team, given a mediocre of skill on the marines side.

The increased costs of structures in 1.04 hurts smaller teams much more than large teams. My feeling is that all in all, the game is now balanced at 7v7-10v10 range - 6v6 games needs quite a skill difference for the marines to win.

Bw, the best way to counter a JP marine for lvl 1 aliens is a lerk or two sitting on the hive... those 20 hits/sec repair rate does wonders, as does the upgraded lerk spike.

BlueGhost · February 2003

On an 8vs8 server i'm finding that the team with the more skilled players on wins...

Intersting.

BlueGhost

OWA · February 2003

Half the people complain that aliens always wins now
Half the people complain that marines always wins now

obviously the game is balanced.

1.04 Aliens > Marines 14/14 Server

Comments