<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->With the changes to sensory and carapace, dropping a single sensory chamber as the very first thing is likely to lead to an easier early game for aliens (ie the first 10 min) than going defense first. With carapace lvl 1 and 2 crippled in 1.04, you need three DC's to make much of a difference (the second DC is especially useless), while a single sensory is good enough for the whole of the early game. That's a 10 vs 42 res cost (in 1.03, it was the other way around - 30 v 14, as the first DC gave you most of the protection from carapace, while sensory required three chambers before they became useful).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was the first, and only, compelling argument I've seen for the pro side of SC's first.
The argument for the effectiveness of the SC has already been countered; however, the way you spend that extra 32 RP, I haven't experimented with yet.
In theory, 2 extra OCs can make for very good decoys, while cloaked skulks lay in wait for marines who pulled back to aim at the OC.
Course, one could again just argue that good marines would be in a group, and have one man shooting at the OC while one watches his back. I'm not going to dismiss this though, as I haven't personally encountered this in a scrim, ever, so I wouldn't know whether it would be true or not. If anyone has done this, NOT in a pub, then please post a demo of the scrim, cause I'm pretty interested in seeing how that would pan out.
Ok, well what size server was this done on ? Currently I play on 32 player or 26 player servers provided by my ISP over here in Australia. Now with such large numbers marines are rarely found alone or in groups of less than 4. Infact some games you see around 8 marines (give or take a couple) in one big group rushing a hive area, now to take down that many marines is a challenge. Even if you were to ambush them with around 6 cloaked aliens, that is alot of gunfire which will rip most of the aliens to shreds without carapace. Even with the advantage of suprise the aliens will be lucky to come out of such an ambush alive and if they do they would have lost so many that by the time the dead aliens respawn the marines will all be back again. I'm not so sure on larger servers that sensory chambers will help aliens much or no where near as much as defence chambers would, even if the aliens were to use ambush tactics effectively.
Anyway I'd like to try sensory chambers out even on the large servers, you never know it could work and I could do with change to the way games are playedout.
Also sensory chambers are extremely strong and build extremely fast, infact they can withstand 2 siege shots when they are placed down (unbuilt) next to a siege cannon whereas every other chamber in the game only lasts one shot. This could be EXTREMELY useful for offensive gorgs. As gorg run up to a set of turrets and place a couple of sensory chambers then drop back a bit and build offensive chambers, by the time the turrets kill the sensory the offense chambers should be up and will take the turrets down. Alternatively a gorg can just place sensory chambers next to each turret in the area taking the fire away from teammate skulks who can then kill the phase and the turret factory.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->infact they [sensories] can withstand 2 siege shots when they are placed down (unbuilt) next to a siege cannon whereas every other chamber in the game only lasts one shot.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If what Pherno says is true, then Sieges would be easily countered with 1.04's changes to make Sieges hurt themselves...
...assuming the gorge had enough cara to get through the sentry's defending the Siege so he could live long enough to drop the SC <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
And again, testing theories in pubs is pointless. You have to test in a scrim/match, since both sides (should) know what they're doing and (should) be working as a team and (should) be good at the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--BlueGhost+Jan 27 2003, 07:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BlueGhost @ Jan 27 2003, 07:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Jetpack rush is still easy to do even on 7v7, which is what I play on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aaha! However in true canadian monkey style:
You're only able to do that because the aliens on your server are NEWBS!
Streight JP rush don't work too good anyway.. 8 def chambers under the hive (especially if their gorge gets himself in position to heal asewell) and you'll have a hell of a job killing the hive.
JP + HMG + Upgrades 'rush' and you damn well do need res points or they'll have fades befor you leave base (unless they quite patently suck and start building some offys first or something)..
I mean in 1.04 if the marines aren't capping enough res to go the whole HA/HMG + GL groups the aliens can put a field of offy chambers around the hive.
Must say I really love 1.04 its made all the stratagy's far more reactive and on the fly <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
BlueGhost <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> A jetpack rush can be done in under 5 minutes, how are you going to get those 8 defense chambers under the hive in those 5 minutes?
To do a jetpack rush you need NO extra resources, so all the marines have to do is stay and guard the base. When I command, if I am getting motion tracking in the beginning I order my team to guard the base till it is done. I also order my marines to stay and guard base till jetpacks are being done researched. Now with good marines, a skulk cannot live inside the marine base long enough to see what is being built, you would have to guess that they are going jetpack and then get atleast 4 people on your team to build a defense chamber under the hive to get the 8 defense chambers. That is a pretty big risk with your resources right there if all the marines were really doing was getting motion tracking.
Yes the jetpack rush is stoppable, but just because it isn't stopped DOES NOT mean in anyway that the alliens were noobs.
<!--QuoteBegin--MobJustice+Jan 27 2003, 04:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MobJustice @ Jan 27 2003, 04:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->infact they [sensories] can withstand 2 siege shots when they are placed down (unbuilt) next to a siege cannon whereas every other chamber in the game only lasts one shot.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If what Pherno says is true, then Sieges would be easily countered with 1.04's changes to make Sieges hurt themselves...
...assuming the gorge had enough cara to get through the sentry's defending the Siege so he could live long enough to drop the SC <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
And again, testing theories in pubs is pointless. You have to test in a scrim/match, since both sides (should) know what they're doing and (should) be working as a team and (should) be good at the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Whats the point in testing anything in clanmatches? Sure, you get the "ultimate" results which you can apply maybe to 0,1% of public servers. This sensory thing should be tested on publics, not clanmatches, since its publics most people play in. I really aren't interested which chamber is "ultimately" best, I'm just interested which chamber will provide more wins to the avarage NS players (like me), who aren't perfectly organized and optimized but somewhat "human" and make errors. In 1.04 publics one error won't usually kill the entire game and the games aren't always decided after first 2 minutes like in 1.03... If sensory works well on publics, I would change build order to SC - DC - MC (or SC - MC - DC). I don't really care (and I doubt many others do) what kind of chamber order the 0,01% of the community called "clanners" use. Unless the public server I play in is suddenly crowded by clanners in which case I would just type "exit" <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
In the entire history of the Defence/Sensory First Debate I have not seen one Demo that proves beyond a reasonable doubt the Sensory first is an effective first chamber against skilled, team-orientated Marines.
Since everytime somebody posts a sensory first success story the nay-sayers counter with "The Marines were no good." That is usually replied with "They were good" and back-and-forth we go. Instead of throwing words around which is so subjective, this is what I think needs to be done...
<b>Record a demo with the aliens doing a Sensory first strategy <i>but record it on the Marine side</i>. This will resolve whether the Marine strategy and teamwork is any good while seeing the impact of a sensory first strategy from the Marine point of view.</b>
Consider this a challenge. The tough part is you will need to assemble a good alien team and a good marine team, then you can truly put Sensory first through it's paces.
I reckon sYn has tried every possible 6vs6 chamber strategy and every recent scrim I've watched of theirs goes DC/MC (rarely do you see 3rd hive action). However maybe there is something to a Sensory first 9vs9 game...
Record a Demo. We've pretty much said everything there is to say 2-3 times over.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Before I go on, when I say "You Suck," I don't mean you suck. I mean you just are not a "good" marine, only average at best. If mediocrity is goal, then you won't care. If you hope to compete in a clan environ, then you will never do well unless you change your playstyle.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's clear that you have a bias against pub games from this and other comments in this thread. You do seem like an intelligent individual however, so you must realize that "clan balance" is not the be all and end all of NS for every player... yes? If not, just ignore the rest of my post... it's not going to make a dent in your closely guarded conceptions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, you're playing marines who can't aim. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If you can't aim DAMN well, you SUCK as a marine. You are cannon fodder, or, as my clanmate put it, "Full-Time Builder Guy." Also, refer down to my explanation of movement with a pointman.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah... I see. If you are a "good marine" you NEVER, EVER miss huh? BS. You're still human. I've owned players with aimbots before as a Skulk, so this arguement is just inflammatory in my opinion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You put them next to TF installations to prevent cloaking regen. Good marines don't walk place to place. They phase. They're only walking in VERY early game, and to get to second hive. Also, refer to Warhound's explanation of recon by fire: If you ain't firing one round to areas where a cloaker might be, then you suck.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok... so the marines have to spend 25 res on an extra, very fragile structure at each of their expansion points to combat the tactic. Please note, I've NEVER seen Marines do this in the games I've played... but even if they did it's a goo thing because again, they are burning res.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Your squad is about to move into a room. 3 res, all skulks are now visible. Its about the comm's judgement, and the marine's ability to shoot.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, but that's one more thing for the comm to keep track of and it's still res spent. Are you going to uncover skulks every time you scan? Probably not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unless the marines CONSTANTLY crouch, they make a very loud "clang clang clang" sound while running, and even while walking. You REALLY suck if you can't hear this, cause you should be playing with loud volume if you want to hear people. And if you don't want to hear people, so sorry, you suck. What's the point? Recon fire don't matter unless you're crouching, cause you'll hear that ****.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Constantly crouch? No. Crouch when I'm trying to be at least a little bit stealthy? Yes. Contrary to popular belief, you don't have to always let the Kharaa know you're coming.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Refer to recon fire/movement with a pointman, for the third time. Little slow, are we?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I'm pretty quick actually. What's your point? Unless you shoot every possible hiding place in a room to flush me out, you are probably not going to hear a noise from me until it's *chomp, chomp*
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, the comm your playing sucks so bad he didn't build the TF clipped into a wall with a triangle of SG's covering it?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Irrelevant. Turrets won't fire at me while I'm cloaked, and take a couple seconds to lock on once I appear. I can sit right in the middle of this "well guarded" area. Besides, I'm talking about camping the PG... not the TF ... so I don't see how the position of the TF matters. Any good comm knows to set up SGs in such a fashion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Seriously, if you're playing marines that suck, you don't need tactics.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd hope that goes without saying.
I'd just like to finish by pointing out that you DON'T know me, you DON'T know how I play, and you DON'T have the ultimate view on what is and is not enjoyable or even most EFFICIENT for other players. We all know that defense first is a perfectly viable strategy, there is no need to get defensive when someone posts that another strategy might also be viable. Clan tactics might be all you care about... fine. I personally couldn't give two tugs on a goats scrotum about Clan anything. That's just me. It still doesn't mean I attack those who do.
So I guess when it comes down to it, I'd rather suck than be bored. And until some diety comes down and demands I build X chamber first or be turned into a pile of flaming ash, I'm going to keep playing the way I and those around me feel like playing. I suggest you do the same and I hope you live a long and happy life doing so.
I played a game with D->S->M but the sensory turned out to be COMPLETELY USELESS. I'm not sure if it was a server bug or not, but with our fades standing completely still, the cloaking would keep blinking on and off every 2 seconds (i.e. cloaked for 2 seconds, then decloaked for 2 seconds, repeat). So we just ended up with fades with no adren and no cloaking basically.
On a differnt note, in an effort to make the games differnt, why not have the chamber that you can build be random for each hive? so you could end up with M,d,s one game, d,s,m or even s,m,d just an idea, some poeple may not like the lack of choice, while others will enjoys the vairty of gameplay. BTW HOB Good to see ya again <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Theory, Firestorm? Far, far from it. Its the refined, concentrated results of two months of hard playing, hours a night and more on the weekend. Erh, ya, I get a little obsessive when I enjoy a game, and team-based games do that to me. Good ones, that is.
I'll be the first to admit that I've not put in hours like that over the last few weeks, gotten rather sporadic. RL gets in the way at times.
I'm the sort of player that takes the time to figure out a game, testing and retesting til I understand it to _my satisfaction. And then go write it up for the clan to train by, or I would if I wasn't burned out on clans/guilds/teams/etc.
Now, I'll be the first to admit I haven't put the same amount of testing and playing into 1.04 that I did into earlier releases. But I've not seen anything to make me believe the changes will invalidate the basics of my understanding of NS.
And that understanding is clear, Def chamber first is clearly the superior build order. You could make some arguments for Sensory as the second, mostly centered around it being more 'fun' than Movement. But I'm afraid arguing that Sensory is as viable as Defense for first chamber will just fall on deaf ears.
Because we tried that already, and it just doesn't measure up.
I've avoided posting on these pointless threads for a while, and this is my last post on this subject.
Have fun in NS, and don't look up, that skulk dropping down on you may just be....me : )
No matter what order they're done in, most games I play, skulks are in it the whole way anyway, and people get good at it if they're smart, because it takes so much to go fade...
I played a game with sens, def, movement. Level 1 cloaking is pretty weak and pointless. Also i miss my movement when this happens. WAS funny when people go errr how the hell do u get sensory fiirst? cheaters. rofl. Everyones used to playing 1.03 i think. Will be good with some different buiding orders .
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Right, Lt.Warhound, the only exception I took to your post was the assumption I've never done this before either. I've been playing a long time, I just don't see DMS as being as 'optimal' as people go on about, maybe because most of those people (read: Most, hence a generalization.) are acid spammers, who seem to think that the moment they got Fade they were being handed a UT Rocket Launcher.
We <b>WERE</b> playing against an efficient, team based marine team, for the most part. Granted, not as efficient as a clan team, but them's the breaks. As for their newb comm, well, that was Firestorm, so beef it with him if you like. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
The reason it was so successful was we also had efficient, <b>team</b> operating skulks. Too many people (IMO) <b>do</b> think they should play the aliens less team based. This is completely wrong.
Example : 3 of us chose a corridor (relatively near spawn) to ambush next group of marines. One (me) decloaked, and ran out in front of them (effectively screaming "ME ME!") chuckling all the way. I ran through my 2 fellows, made a point of drawing them on long enough for a) me to get around a corner and b) That pointman (which they used too) to <b>not</b> be the one in the main killzone, but the main party. I doubled back, the 2 skulks dropped. By the time our 5 marines had worked it out, I'd killed point-boy (by jumping around a corner at him) and 2 of the party marines were dead (you can't shoot what you never get to see b4 dying)
That only left 2. 2 marines, in a wild shooting frenzy, against 3 organized (although wounded) skulks? Even odds at worst for me.
As to Fantasmo, Ok dude. I'll happily record a demo from marine side. Just as soon as I can convince either a) A marine in the team or B) A gorge on the opposing team (Good LUCK! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) to build sensory first.
The comedic bit is, I only started this thread to say thank you to all the players in that game, for allowing me to have a refreshing time, and reinstating my belief in the viability of other chamber orders. DMS is not the be all & end all. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--MobJustice+Jan 28 2003, 05:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MobJustice @ Jan 28 2003, 05:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->infact they [sensories] can withstand 2 siege shots when they are placed down (unbuilt) next to a siege cannon whereas every other chamber in the game only lasts one shot.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If what Pherno says is true, then Sieges would be easily countered with 1.04's changes to make Sieges hurt themselves...
...assuming the gorge had enough cara to get through the sentry's defending the Siege so he could live long enough to drop the SC <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
And again, testing theories in pubs is pointless. You have to test in a scrim/match, since both sides (should) know what they're doing and (should) be working as a team and (should) be good at the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well I tested the sieges hurting themselves and it really isnt viable in a game, they only hurt THEMSELVES, no other marine buildings or players. It also takes around 8 siege shots (give or take a few) before the siege kills itself, which really isnt possible to do in a game (especially with sentires and marines around). However the sensory chamber could still be used to take out a group of sentries (with no sieges) from shooting teammates. A gorg can easily walk up to each turret and place a sens chamber next to it, and since sentry turrets shoot the nearest object it will continue to shoot the sens chamber whilst your teammate skulks can take the tf and phase out....
As I said sens chambers are really strong and it will take a single sentry a while to kill it, they also only cost 10 res so it wont break the banks for gorgs....
Ok one thing seems to shine like a beacon at this point. <b>REMOVE</b> motion tracking for marines! Allow the commander to still see it but only in the range of an observatory (which may need to be decreased) This would make cloaking seriously viable
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
kolol, no, really, don't.
The whole point was, we were using it as a 1 hive tactic. Comms who research MT in response to it, are not spending those 45 rez on tech rush, phases etc etc.
That's why it was viable. And it was still good after they got MT, just required a little more planning.
You're forgetting just one thing: canadianmonkey says sensories are useless! That's right! Your whole 'sensories first' game must be made up, because sensories are useless! And if canadianmonkey doesn't like S first, then that's good enough for the rest of us!
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--kwitcherbitchin+Jan 27 2003, 06:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kwitcherbitchin @ Jan 27 2003, 06:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I played a game with D->S->M but the sensory turned out to be COMPLETELY USELESS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well ... S-D-M might be a viable build, but I can hardly see how D-S-M is worthwhile ... sensorys main usefulness are to get an early game advantage (the gorge should build a single sensory the FIRST thing he does). For the midgame, adrenaline is just so much better than sensory it's silly.
Bild a Sens chamber? Not for me. I just bilt a Sens chamber for the 2nd upgrade and was kicked from a server. Im not bilding sens chamber ever again. Too much hassle. Whenever you bild one you always get some butthead(s) yelling at you or whatever. The game can be won w/o it. If someone wants sens from now on they gotta get someone else to bild it because I wont be. I can live w/o the stress thank you very much.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
That's the problem. Too many people with obsessions about Adren & Cara.
Once again, I repeat. At the end of the day, you're <i>playing a <b>game</b></i>. Who cares if you lose one round, if you tried something new & had fun?
Take a chance, play around with your playing style. It's far more rewarding than being predictable.
Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
<!--QuoteBegin--Shockwave+Jan 28 2003, 08:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Jan 28 2003, 08:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Once again, I repeat. At the end of the day, you're <i>playing a <b>game</b></i>. Who cares if you lose one round, if you tried something new & had fun?
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Then that is the sign of players who don't understand the meaning of the word 'game'.
The idea is to have fun, regardless of outcome. If you have to win to have fun, you're not playing the game right. And that isn't an issue entirely with the game, that's also an issue with the players.
The real comedy of that problem is, people assume sensory = lose. Which it doesn't. It just means you'll have to play a different game.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
I think sentry guns should be changed so the comm can manually override the target should he need to, so he can taarget the gorge or the skulks or whatever. This take lots of micro management and great clicking skills so it's not un-balanced.
The problem is that no matter how 'good' a person thinks they can play with sensory, a TEAM can play 10 times better with defense. After the two games I played sensory in 1.04, I couldn't sit down for at least an hour afterwards. (if you know what I mean <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Sorry, not interested.
I think I'll stand by what I said in another thread. Give aliens level 3 carapace BY DEFAULT. (IE, build it into the alien health/armor values) Then pull carapace from the DC and put in something else. (like a low level hal ability - half the heal ability of a gorge)
THEN and only then will you see people choosing other chambers over DCs in the early game.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Maybe I was just lucky, to have a team of players all who played well with Sensory then. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Then that is the sign of players who don't understand the meaning of the word 'game'.
The idea is to have fun, regardless of outcome. If you have to win to have fun, you're not playing the game right. And that isn't an issue entirely with the game, that's also an issue with the players. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A game is a competition, all games are naturally competitive, the 'idea' is to play to the best of your ability and attempt to win. You don't have to win for the game to be enjoyable, the enjoyment comes from the competition itself, but you do have to TRY to win. If you are making no attempt to win a game, any enjoyment you take away from the experience is not the enjoyment of playing the game - it is enjoyment gained from some sideline activity such as trying for as many parasite kills as you can get in a row.
The "fun" of a game is in the competition, and the competition demands that you make the effort to compete. There is a distinction between using sensory because it's your best strategic option, using sensory because you are not attempting to compete and want to faff around, and using sensory because you are unsure of your best strategic option and want to test it.
The discussion of chamber order is not about people unwilling to try something new, it is about deciding which order is most effective in whatever situation is presented and using it. NS does not give you bonus points for doing something silly because you think it might be "fun". If you go for sensory chambers when you know they are not your most effective option then you are not playing NS, you are playing "see how many comedy cloak kills i can get before lunchtime" you are competing only with yourself, and you are impeeding the play of anyone else on the server who is actually trying to play NS.
The comment that "Sensory does not always = lose" isnt relevant, all that matters is which option is most effective in the situation. The fact that you could have won a game as a rambo gorge with 1 hand while simultaneously jerking off to softcore porn does not justify your critisism of anyone who doesn't go rambo gorge, and decides to play NS instead. I understand that you like to sound 'cool' by rejecting an accepted standard, but choosing an inneffective chamber order and refusing to fire acid rockets does not make you an 31337 player, it makes you a pain in the rear-end to any teammate who is attempting to play the game properly.
"Playing the game properly", I define as attempting to fulfill the goals of the game as best you can. The goals of NS are to kill the opposing team, and destroy their method of respawning. Something to heed for everyone who ever used the phrase "play the game properly" in a bunnyhopping thread. Note that no where in the game goals does it say: "In the event of a tie, the game will go to whichever team made the most original upgrade decision and/or scored the most parasite kills."
DMS was an accepted standard in 1.03 because actual game experience showed it to be the most effective upgrade order. If you believed 1.04 changes this accepted standard, you could argue as such, and later down the line when many serious matches have been played, you might be shown to be correct. What you are doing instead is critising people who are attempting to play the game properly, on the basis that they should make unintelligent strategic options for the sake of being different.
If you have a bunch of people gathered together, and decide that for a change, you fancy playing "Cloak and try to drop on firestorms head for kicks and giggles" instead of NS then by all means do so. But when you carry that attitude into a public server or a serious game, you are interferring with people who are actually trying to play NS. You are the 2 kids sitting in the middle of a football pitch playing checkers. Now you might think checkers is a great laugh, but when i come onto a football pitch, i expect to play football. And when i join an NS server, i expect to be playing NS.
Edit: Ok, it seems you did make some comments relating to sense being a viable game decision. My gripe is not with the idea of going sensory first, if you think that works well then more power to you. I have a problem with the suggestion that people should choose something ineffective on purpose for the sake of being different. The phrase "its only a game" manages to really **** me off no matter what it's said in relation to thats all ;)
Disclaimer - This is not an anti-sensory rant. Its a commentary on the quote "Its only a game", and related arguments. If you want my anti-sensory arguments, go here:
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Point taken, and accepted. Perhaps, to start with, we were doing it in fun.
But perhaps we found it to be more effective than a lot of 'mainstream' players are saying? I'm not jumping onto this because I just don't *want* to do DMS. I just find different systems are equally effective. Jumping on Firestorms head was a pleasant bonus. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
So, yes, it started out as an experiment, and an attempt to have a not hugely disruptive bit of fun. But it was found to be competitive, so we kept on doing it. If you're winning doing it, and the opposing team isn't a bad team (which they weren't, they just weren't used to the change in tactics) then you're being competitive aren't you? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
This was the first, and only, compelling argument I've seen for the pro side of SC's first.
The argument for the effectiveness of the SC has already been countered; however, the way you spend that extra 32 RP, I haven't experimented with yet.
In theory, 2 extra OCs can make for very good decoys, while cloaked skulks lay in wait for marines who pulled back to aim at the OC.
Course, one could again just argue that good marines would be in a group, and have one man shooting at the OC while one watches his back. I'm not going to dismiss this though, as I haven't personally encountered this in a scrim, ever, so I wouldn't know whether it would be true or not. If anyone has done this, NOT in a pub, then please post a demo of the scrim, cause I'm pretty interested in seeing how that would pan out.
Anyway I'd like to try sensory chambers out even on the large servers, you never know it could work and I could do with change to the way games are playedout.
Also sensory chambers are extremely strong and build extremely fast, infact they can withstand 2 siege shots when they are placed down (unbuilt) next to a siege cannon whereas every other chamber in the game only lasts one shot. This could be EXTREMELY useful for offensive gorgs. As gorg run up to a set of turrets and place a couple of sensory chambers then drop back a bit and build offensive chambers, by the time the turrets kill the sensory the offense chambers should be up and will take the turrets down. Alternatively a gorg can just place sensory chambers next to each turret in the area taking the fire away from teammate skulks who can then kill the phase and the turret factory.
If what Pherno says is true, then Sieges would be easily countered with 1.04's changes to make Sieges hurt themselves...
...assuming the gorge had enough cara to get through the sentry's defending the Siege so he could live long enough to drop the SC <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
And again, testing theories in pubs is pointless. You have to test in a scrim/match, since both sides (should) know what they're doing and (should) be working as a team and (should) be good at the game.
Aaha! However in true canadian monkey style:
You're only able to do that because the aliens on your server are NEWBS!
Streight JP rush don't work too good anyway.. 8 def chambers under the hive (especially if their gorge gets himself in position to heal asewell) and you'll have a hell of a job killing the hive.
JP + HMG + Upgrades 'rush' and you damn well do need res points or they'll have fades befor you leave base (unless they quite patently suck and start building some offys first or something)..
I mean in 1.04 if the marines aren't capping enough res to go the whole HA/HMG + GL groups the aliens can put a field of offy chambers around the hive.
Must say I really love 1.04 its made all the stratagy's far more reactive and on the fly <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
BlueGhost <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
A jetpack rush can be done in under 5 minutes, how are you going to get those 8 defense chambers under the hive in those 5 minutes?
To do a jetpack rush you need NO extra resources, so all the marines have to do is stay and guard the base. When I command, if I am getting motion tracking in the beginning I order my team to guard the base till it is done. I also order my marines to stay and guard base till jetpacks are being done researched. Now with good marines, a skulk cannot live inside the marine base long enough to see what is being built, you would have to guess that they are going jetpack and then get atleast 4 people on your team to build a defense chamber under the hive to get the 8 defense chambers. That is a pretty big risk with your resources right there if all the marines were really doing was getting motion tracking.
Yes the jetpack rush is stoppable, but just because it isn't stopped DOES NOT mean in anyway that the alliens were noobs.
If what Pherno says is true, then Sieges would be easily countered with 1.04's changes to make Sieges hurt themselves...
...assuming the gorge had enough cara to get through the sentry's defending the Siege so he could live long enough to drop the SC <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
And again, testing theories in pubs is pointless. You have to test in a scrim/match, since both sides (should) know what they're doing and (should) be working as a team and (should) be good at the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whats the point in testing anything in clanmatches? Sure, you get the "ultimate" results which you can apply maybe to 0,1% of public servers. This sensory thing should be tested on publics, not clanmatches, since its publics most people play in. I really aren't interested which chamber is "ultimately" best, I'm just interested which chamber will provide more wins to the avarage NS players (like me), who aren't perfectly organized and optimized but somewhat "human" and make errors. In 1.04 publics one error won't usually kill the entire game and the games aren't always decided after first 2 minutes like in 1.03... If sensory works well on publics, I would change build order to SC - DC - MC (or SC - MC - DC). I don't really care (and I doubt many others do) what kind of chamber order the 0,01% of the community called "clanners" use. Unless the public server I play in is suddenly crowded by clanners in which case I would just type "exit" <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Since everytime somebody posts a sensory first success story the nay-sayers counter with "The Marines were no good." That is usually replied with "They were good" and back-and-forth we go. Instead of throwing words around which is so subjective, this is what I think needs to be done...
<b>Record a demo with the aliens doing a Sensory first strategy <i>but record it on the Marine side</i>. This will resolve whether the Marine strategy and teamwork is any good while seeing the impact of a sensory first strategy from the Marine point of view.</b>
Consider this a challenge. The tough part is you will need to assemble a good alien team and a good marine team, then you can truly put Sensory first through it's paces.
I reckon sYn has tried every possible 6vs6 chamber strategy and every recent scrim I've watched of theirs goes DC/MC (rarely do you see 3rd hive action). However maybe there is something to a Sensory first 9vs9 game...
Record a Demo. We've pretty much said everything there is to say 2-3 times over.
It's clear that you have a bias against pub games from this and other comments in this thread. You do seem like an intelligent individual however, so you must realize that "clan balance" is not the be all and end all of NS for every player... yes? If not, just ignore the rest of my post... it's not going to make a dent in your closely guarded conceptions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, you're playing marines who can't aim. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If you can't aim DAMN well, you SUCK as a marine. You are cannon fodder, or, as my clanmate put it, "Full-Time Builder Guy." Also, refer down to my explanation of movement with a pointman.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah... I see. If you are a "good marine" you NEVER, EVER miss huh? BS. You're still human. I've owned players with aimbots before as a Skulk, so this arguement is just inflammatory in my opinion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You put them next to TF installations to prevent cloaking regen. Good marines don't walk place to place. They phase. They're only walking in VERY early game, and to get to second hive. Also, refer to Warhound's explanation of recon by fire: If you ain't firing one round to areas where a cloaker might be, then you suck.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok... so the marines have to spend 25 res on an extra, very fragile structure at each of their expansion points to combat the tactic. Please note, I've NEVER seen Marines do this in the games I've played... but even if they did it's a goo thing because again, they are burning res.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Your squad is about to move into a room. 3 res, all skulks are now visible. Its about the comm's judgement, and the marine's ability to shoot.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, but that's one more thing for the comm to keep track of and it's still res spent. Are you going to uncover skulks every time you scan? Probably not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unless the marines CONSTANTLY crouch, they make a very loud "clang clang clang" sound while running, and even while walking. You REALLY suck if you can't hear this, cause you should be playing with loud volume if you want to hear people. And if you don't want to hear people, so sorry, you suck. What's the point? Recon fire don't matter unless you're crouching, cause you'll hear that ****.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Constantly crouch? No. Crouch when I'm trying to be at least a little bit stealthy? Yes. Contrary to popular belief, you don't have to always let the Kharaa know you're coming.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Refer to recon fire/movement with a pointman, for the third time. Little slow, are we?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I'm pretty quick actually. What's your point? Unless you shoot every possible hiding place in a room to flush me out, you are probably not going to hear a noise from me until it's *chomp, chomp*
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, the comm your playing sucks so bad he didn't build the TF clipped into a wall with a triangle of SG's covering it?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Irrelevant. Turrets won't fire at me while I'm cloaked, and take a couple seconds to lock on once I appear. I can sit right in the middle of this "well guarded" area. Besides, I'm talking about camping the PG... not the TF ... so I don't see how the position of the TF matters. Any good comm knows to set up SGs in such a fashion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Seriously, if you're playing marines that suck, you don't need tactics.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd hope that goes without saying.
I'd just like to finish by pointing out that you DON'T know me, you DON'T know how I play, and you DON'T have the ultimate view on what is and is not enjoyable or even most EFFICIENT for other players. We all know that defense first is a perfectly viable strategy, there is no need to get defensive when someone posts that another strategy might also be viable. Clan tactics might be all you care about... fine. I personally couldn't give two tugs on a goats scrotum about Clan anything. That's just me. It still doesn't mean I attack those who do.
So I guess when it comes down to it, I'd rather suck than be bored. And until some diety comes down and demands I build X chamber first or be turned into a pile of flaming ash, I'm going to keep playing the way I and those around me feel like playing. I suggest you do the same and I hope you live a long and happy life doing so.
BTW HOB Good to see ya again <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'll be the first to admit that I've not put in hours like that over the last few weeks, gotten rather sporadic. RL gets in the way at times.
I'm the sort of player that takes the time to figure out a game, testing and retesting til I understand it to _my satisfaction. And then go write it up for the clan to train by, or I would if I wasn't burned out on clans/guilds/teams/etc.
Now, I'll be the first to admit I haven't put the same amount of testing and playing into 1.04 that I did into earlier releases. But I've not seen anything to make me believe the changes will invalidate the basics of my understanding of NS.
And that understanding is clear, Def chamber first is clearly the superior build order. You could make some arguments for Sensory as the second, mostly centered around it being more 'fun' than Movement. But I'm afraid arguing that Sensory is as viable as Defense for first chamber will just fall on deaf ears.
Because we tried that already, and it just doesn't measure up.
I've avoided posting on these pointless threads for a while, and this is my last post on this subject.
Have fun in NS, and don't look up, that skulk dropping down on you may just be....me : )
Level 1 cloaking is pretty weak and pointless.
Also i miss my movement when this happens.
WAS funny when people go errr how the hell do u get sensory fiirst? cheaters. rofl.
Everyones used to playing 1.03 i think. Will be good with some different buiding orders .
We <b>WERE</b> playing against an efficient, team based marine team, for the most part. Granted, not as efficient as a clan team, but them's the breaks. As for their newb comm, well, that was Firestorm, so beef it with him if you like. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
The reason it was so successful was we also had efficient, <b>team</b> operating skulks. Too many people (IMO) <b>do</b> think they should play the aliens less team based. This is completely wrong.
Example : 3 of us chose a corridor (relatively near spawn) to ambush next group of marines. One (me) decloaked, and ran out in front of them (effectively screaming "ME ME!") chuckling all the way. I ran through my 2 fellows, made a point of drawing them on long enough for a) me to get around a corner and b) That pointman (which they used too) to <b>not</b> be the one in the main killzone, but the main party. I doubled back, the 2 skulks dropped. By the time our 5 marines had worked it out, I'd killed point-boy (by jumping around a corner at him) and 2 of the party marines were dead (you can't shoot what you never get to see b4 dying)
That only left 2. 2 marines, in a wild shooting frenzy, against 3 organized (although wounded) skulks? Even odds at worst for me.
As to Fantasmo, Ok dude. I'll happily record a demo from marine side. Just as soon as I can convince either a) A marine in the team or B) A gorge on the opposing team (Good LUCK! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) to build sensory first.
The comedic bit is, I only started this thread to say thank you to all the players in that game, for allowing me to have a refreshing time, and reinstating my belief in the viability of other chamber orders. DMS is not the be all & end all. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
If what Pherno says is true, then Sieges would be easily countered with 1.04's changes to make Sieges hurt themselves...
...assuming the gorge had enough cara to get through the sentry's defending the Siege so he could live long enough to drop the SC <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
And again, testing theories in pubs is pointless. You have to test in a scrim/match, since both sides (should) know what they're doing and (should) be working as a team and (should) be good at the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I tested the sieges hurting themselves and it really isnt viable in a game, they only hurt THEMSELVES, no other marine buildings or players. It also takes around 8 siege shots (give or take a few) before the siege kills itself, which really isnt possible to do in a game (especially with sentires and marines around). However the sensory chamber could still be used to take out a group of sentries (with no sieges) from shooting teammates. A gorg can easily walk up to each turret and place a sens chamber next to it, and since sentry turrets shoot the nearest object it will continue to shoot the sens chamber whilst your teammate skulks can take the tf and phase out....
As I said sens chambers are really strong and it will take a single sentry a while to kill it, they also only cost 10 res so it wont break the banks for gorgs....
(You stick an OC RIGHT next to each sentry)
This would make cloaking seriously viable
The whole point was, we were using it as a 1 hive tactic. Comms who research MT in response to it, are not spending those 45 rez on tech rush, phases etc etc.
That's why it was viable. And it was still good after they got MT, just required a little more planning.
Well ... S-D-M might be a viable build, but I can hardly see how D-S-M is worthwhile ... sensorys main usefulness are to get an early game advantage (the gorge should build a single sensory the FIRST thing he does). For the midgame, adrenaline is just so much better than sensory it's silly.
Once again, I repeat. At the end of the day, you're <i>playing a <b>game</b></i>. Who cares if you lose one round, if you tried something new & had fun?
Take a chance, play around with your playing style. It's far more rewarding than being predictable.
Once again, I repeat. At the end of the day, you're <i>playing a <b>game</b></i>. Who cares if you lose one round, if you tried something new & had fun?
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Losing isn't fun.
The idea is to have fun, regardless of outcome. If you have to win to have fun, you're not playing the game right. And that isn't an issue entirely with the game, that's also an issue with the players.
The real comedy of that problem is, people assume sensory = lose. Which it doesn't. It just means you'll have to play a different game.
Sorry, not interested.
I think I'll stand by what I said in another thread. Give aliens level 3 carapace BY DEFAULT. (IE, build it into the alien health/armor values) Then pull carapace from the DC and put in something else. (like a low level hal ability - half the heal ability of a gorge)
THEN and only then will you see people choosing other chambers over DCs in the early game.
Regards,
Savant
Then that is the sign of players who don't understand the meaning of the word 'game'.
The idea is to have fun, regardless of outcome. If you have to win to have fun, you're not playing the game right. And that isn't an issue entirely with the game, that's also an issue with the players.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A game is a competition, all games are naturally competitive, the 'idea' is to play to the best of your ability and attempt to win. You don't have to win for the game to be enjoyable, the enjoyment comes from the competition itself, but you do have to TRY to win. If you are making no attempt to win a game, any enjoyment you take away from the experience is not the enjoyment of playing the game - it is enjoyment gained from some sideline activity such as trying for as many parasite kills as you can get in a row.
The "fun" of a game is in the competition, and the competition demands that you make the effort to compete. There is a distinction between using sensory because it's your best strategic option, using sensory because you are not attempting to compete and want to faff around, and using sensory because you are unsure of your best strategic option and want to test it.
The discussion of chamber order is not about people unwilling to try something new, it is about deciding which order is most effective in whatever situation is presented and using it. NS does not give you bonus points for doing something silly because you think it might be "fun". If you go for sensory chambers when you know they are not your most effective option then you are not playing NS, you are playing "see how many comedy cloak kills i can get before lunchtime" you are competing only with yourself, and you are impeeding the play of anyone else on the server who is actually trying to play NS.
The comment that "Sensory does not always = lose" isnt relevant, all that matters is which option is most effective in the situation. The fact that you could have won a game as a rambo gorge with 1 hand while simultaneously jerking off to softcore porn does not justify your critisism of anyone who doesn't go rambo gorge, and decides to play NS instead. I understand that you like to sound 'cool' by rejecting an accepted standard, but choosing an inneffective chamber order and refusing to fire acid rockets does not make you an 31337 player, it makes you a pain in the rear-end to any teammate who is attempting to play the game properly.
"Playing the game properly", I define as attempting to fulfill the goals of the game as best you can. The goals of NS are to kill the opposing team, and destroy their method of respawning. Something to heed for everyone who ever used the phrase "play the game properly" in a bunnyhopping thread. Note that no where in the game goals does it say: "In the event of a tie, the game will go to whichever team made the most original upgrade decision and/or scored the most parasite kills."
DMS was an accepted standard in 1.03 because actual game experience showed it to be the most effective upgrade order. If you believed 1.04 changes this accepted standard, you could argue as such, and later down the line when many serious matches have been played, you might be shown to be correct. What you are doing instead is critising people who are attempting to play the game properly, on the basis that they should make unintelligent strategic options for the sake of being different.
If you have a bunch of people gathered together, and decide that for a change, you fancy playing "Cloak and try to drop on firestorms head for kicks and giggles" instead of NS then by all means do so. But when you carry that attitude into a public server or a serious game, you are interferring with people who are actually trying to play NS. You are the 2 kids sitting in the middle of a football pitch playing checkers. Now you might think checkers is a great laugh, but when i come onto a football pitch, i expect to play football. And when i join an NS server, i expect to be playing NS.
Edit: Ok, it seems you did make some comments relating to sense being a viable game decision. My gripe is not with the idea of going sensory first, if you think that works well then more power to you. I have a problem with the suggestion that people should choose something ineffective on purpose for the sake of being different. The phrase "its only a game" manages to really **** me off no matter what it's said in relation to thats all ;)
Disclaimer - This is not an anti-sensory rant. Its a commentary on the quote "Its only a game", and related arguments. If you want my anti-sensory arguments, go here:
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=21&t=19709&st=105' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...&t=19709&st=105</a>
But perhaps we found it to be more effective than a lot of 'mainstream' players are saying? I'm not jumping onto this because I just don't *want* to do DMS. I just find different systems are equally effective. Jumping on Firestorms head was a pleasant bonus. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
So, yes, it started out as an experiment, and an attempt to have a not hugely disruptive bit of fun. But it was found to be competitive, so we kept on doing it. If you're winning doing it, and the opposing team isn't a bad team (which they weren't, they just weren't used to the change in tactics) then you're being competitive aren't you? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->