ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Of course you did Flayra, of course you did. No cookie for you, ya meanie. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I love it when aliens go sensory first, jack up marines bullet level to 2 and the skulks dont even die they just pop out of existance <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
The idea rebo, was that the marines weren't getting to shoot ANYTHING, they never saw anyone until they were already being eaten. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Man I love SC first thing. But I still hate it...why? because the idiot gorge who does it only builds ONE OF THEM then farts off to build a mini base in the middle of nowhere. I guess I just get the guys who just want to ruin the game whenever I have someone on my team who builds SC first... <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--FireStorm+Jan 26 2003, 06:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FireStorm @ Jan 26 2003, 06:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--+Hozart++Jan 26 2003, 07:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (+Hozart @ +Jan 26 2003, 07:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Keeping them from leaving their base, what about the 3rd hive, didn't they have anything occupying there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> We had a hive completely secured. We nearly had another one but the marines died before i had time to spawn a TF... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> spawn a tf first? and they weren't bad marines?
they could have killed you easily with jetpacks or phase gates if they knew what they were doing, since none of your buildings healed themselves and I doubt one or two gorges could heal all the chambers and hive(s) in the map fast enough.
- don't build observatories (they cancel cloak in a radius around the observatory)
- don't scan
- don't do recon by fire (firing a few shots at likely ambush spots, or a shot from the GL, then hosing down the blood splatters)
- don't do recon by fire at spots they heard the sounds of alien movement
- don't set up phase gates between bases
- don't research motion tracking.
Against marines like that, you don't need cloak. On the other hand, if they do those things, cloak won't help.
Face it, you aren't the first people to try S before D. Its been done, to death. November was spent trying everything out, and sorry, but cloak doesn't cut it.
Is it fun? Yep, loads of fun. I love playing sneaky, aliens were my chosen class in AvP2. I lived for the sneak kill, death from the shadows, and didn't worry about my frag score.
Can you win using cloak? Yep. But against marines of that skill level, it doesn't matter what chamber sequence you use.
Is it as effective as D first? Nope. Not even close.
Cloak doesn't do a thing, when you are being fired on. Which happens anytime you need to attack. Which is often.
To keep marines pinned. To kill expansions. To take out their base.
Any time you need to attack something, cloak is gone. Carapace is forever. Well, til dead.
Carapace vs cloak, no contest. Def chamber seconday effects vs Sensory chamber, no contest (healing vs 'it might parasite if the marine touches it and probably won't' - never parasites me as I knife the S chamber down).
Marines can EASILY negate cloak. Scan. Build another observatory. Fire at the blue circle that takes a while to go away when you stop moving to let the cloak kick in.
Carapace? Nope, short of killing you, marines can't negate it.
Who needs cloak to ambush people? Just tuck into a niche or corner, or in the shadows, and drop down on top of them. Every bit as effective as cloaking, more so since it takes no time to kick in and observatories don't negate it.
If my team puts up sensory, cloak isn't what I take. Sense of fear is. Knowing exactly where that marine is, up around the corner, means I'm biting him before he knows he's under attack.
I know, I know, I can hear it now. If you move up ahead of the marines, far enough ahead to stop moving and lose the motion detection giveaway circle and let cloak kick in, you are hard to detect, short of a commander scan. Guess what? If its an important location, the commander should be spending those 3 rp to scan as the marines are about to move in. If its not important enough to scan, then odds are the marines aren't going there. And you just waste your time waiting, waiting, waiting....
Or you set up in ambush right where they have to go, to travel from their spawn base to the hive they fortified. They have to travel that route...or do they? Phase gate. And you just waste your time waiting, waiting, waiting....
For that matter who needs silence, marines on the move make more than enough noise to cover the sound of a skulk running up behind them, and with celerity you can get there in time to keep him from turning around.
Skulk. Move fast, hit hard and get out of the way when the bullets fly.
I too had the MOST varied game in 1.04 I've ever had in NS. And in a public server! Almost everything seemed to be of some use. There were fades and HA/HMGs battling each other with leaping skulks and lerks casting umbra. Then there were granade launchers shooting those lerks and I myself had a shotgun that I used to take out incoming skulks. Jetpacks were also used, and we fought for the second hive like hell. Gorges had put a whole hell of a lot of webs so we were forced to use welders to take those out. RTs were capped and resources were flowing well so we could afford lots of upgrades, motion tracking and welders to fix structures. We finally won when I adviced the commander to go for Port Engine hive, which was least defended. We set up a siege next to it and I was a spotter spotting enemy OCs and shooting incoming skulks with shotgun (killed a LOT too, it's really a good gun now that it's price has been decreased). Phasegates were also used, but not mines unfortunately. The game entered a whole new level when I desperately tried to figure out ways to take out those fades and get a hive. The commander wasn't good, but thanks to the auto-heal system that lets you get heals when you ask instead of the comm having to drop them, he only needed to drop structures. I even managed to take down a fade with a shotgun before being bit in the head by a flying lerk!
Went bit off topic, but I just couldn't find any other "hot" thread where I could tell about my experience. 1.04 rocks! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't know if it comes with 1.04, but in the german server I played, you could get health by asking it trough menu instead of the commander having to drop it manually. It would instantly give you some. Don't know if it's exploitable though or does it work for ammo. Didn't try.
<b>Note:</b> "Auto-healing" is not part of v1.04, but some kind of server add-on or plug-in.
<!--QuoteBegin--+Hozart++Jan 26 2003, 05:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (+Hozart+ @ Jan 26 2003, 05:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hmmm...sensory first, how did your fades take out enemy encampments and another question, do turrets fire at you while you are cloaked? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> We're talking about sensory chambers at the start of the game, so attacking marine bases isn't a priority. Skulks should be parasiting and harrassing marines, not attacking the base. So sensory in this case is probably more effective than defence. Think about it. To use a defence chamber for the purpose of healing attacking allies you're going to have to use lots of resources your team does not have at the beginning of a game to build loads of defence chamber lines. To use a sensory chamber for the purpose of cloaking and harrassing marines you only have to build one chamber back in the safety of your base and that's it.
The chambers were originally supposed to be equally choosable in the beginning of the game and this thread has increased my hopes in the experimental strategies of public servers... Nice one lads <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I have been going on various servers constantly trying to convince people to try sensory or movement first. Believe it or not, the games where we DID try MC or SC first, were some of the BEST games we have EVER had.
For those of you (50% of you) that cursed at me and made comments about my mom or my sexuality, I will no longer argue with you, because you are ruining a great game for yourself, not playing it to the full potential.
Some VERY stubborn people cannot think for themselves, and figure out how to change their tactics according to MC or SC.
YES the buildings can't heal themselves anymore, then have u thought about cloaked ambush ALONG with the offensives? Uncloak and eat them while they're busy with the offensives?
YES without andrenaline, a Fade will have a harder time acid-rocketting down a base. But have you EVER thought about using skulks? My friends and I have taken down entire bases with 8, 9 turrets by putting 1 cloaked skulk in front, and the rest of us with regen + cloak, we'd run into the TF, bite, cloak when hurt, regen back our HP, uncloak and bite away again.
I suggest everyone reading this, that agrees with me, do the same thing I'm doing: Any server that I join I immediately suggest that we try movement or cloak first. DO NOT worry about people cursing at you and calling u a n00b, they usually shut up after I end the game with 28:2 and only using celerity + cloak.
I'm so incredibly satisfied at the fact that you're actually seeing people opening up to the possibility that defense and movement aren't the only two chambers in the game]
Of course now you're also getting a lot of the die-hards screaming "0h n0! t3h f4des 4r3 useless w/o adrenaline!" or "omg omg teh structures will di3 with0ut d3f3nse ch4mbers!"
Like anything else, if you play sensory the same way you tried to play with defense you're going to lose, because *gasp* IT REQUIRES YOU TO THINK A DIFFERENT WAY! *shudders*...
This should be beneficial to the community, might actually get some people thinking that there's other ways to win than just having "l337 aiming skillz" or having a fade that can pump out 5 acid rockets a volley.
All the times on the servers I've played on where people build sensory first the aliens insta-lose, perhaps because the marine commander usually knows exactly what he is doing. Or marines just jetpack rush and kill the hive.
<!--QuoteBegin--HOB+Jan 27 2003, 03:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HOB @ Jan 27 2003, 03:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> All the times on the servers I've played on where people build sensory first the aliens insta-lose, perhaps because the marine commander usually knows exactly what he is doing. Or marines just jetpack rush and kill the hive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, sucks to be you.
But if this is happening on every server that *YOU'RE* on...
Shockwave, I wasn't refering to you, but rather to some of the people in this thread who claim players opposed to changing the DMS order (in 1.04) are mindless simpletons who cannot think for themselves. I'm sorry, but I'm opposed to anything else than DMS because it's by far the best order aliens have. While it may be possible these people enjoy needlessly handicapping themselves, I sure don't.
To the other guy:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"To become a truly effective alien, you must stop basing the chamber order around your playing style. Instead you must base your playing style around the chamber order"
Basically, an alien who can own the marines regardless of the chamber order has a distinct advantage over an alien who can only own the marines with one chamber order.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is based on the assumption that all chambers are equally viable choices when they clearly aren't. If they were, why would Flayra make it a point that 1.1 will make every chamber an equally viable first choice?
And also, that quotation is completely wrong. The #1 major influence on my playing style is how the marines are playing and what strategy they're using. Defense chambers cover pretty much anything the marines can do, whereas sensories first to get cloaking pretty much assumes the marines will be rushing the main hive. What if they aren't though? What if they just grabbed 3 nodes, guard them & their main with marines (and not wasting money on useless sentries) while they are tech rushing? Not only will your cloaking will be useless, but your lack of carapace and structure/hive healing will be your demise. You won't be able to rush them (no carapace skulks die so fast to marines who can aim), you won't be able to stop them when they come with their tech either (and they'll get it fast if they don't waste any resources). What if they lock down a hive or two? What if the comm scans before his squad enters an area? There are so many things that can go wrong. Carapace can handle pretty much anything, cloaking only a specific marine strategy that isn't even popular anymore.
Besides, I can ambush just fine without cloaking, I just have to be more careful when I choose my spot.
Jetpack rush? To do this my good sir, you need tons of Resource Towers, and given the number of cloaked skulks running around securing 2 nodes is quite difficult. This given, if the alien team has at lease two or three competint (sp?) lerks to take care the few Marines equipped with Jets, your tactic is null and void.
<!--QuoteBegin--Lt.Warhound+Jan 27 2003, 02:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lt.Warhound @ Jan 27 2003, 02:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So, you have marines that:
- don't travel in groups
- don't build observatories (they cancel cloak in a radius around the observatory)
- don't scan
- don't do recon by fire (firing a few shots at likely ambush spots, or a shot from the GL, then hosing down the blood splatters)
- don't do recon by fire at spots they heard the sounds of alien movement
- don't set up phase gates between bases
- don't research motion tracking.
Against marines like that, you don't need cloak. On the other hand, if they do those things, cloak won't help. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> - Travel in groups? I hope so. That's a much greater chance that one will bump RIGHT INTO me as they walk down the hall. And be lined up so I can kill two or three in rapid succession.
- build observatories? Out in the middle of a hallway? Where do you think a Skulk will be cloaked... right next to your comm chair?
- scanning? I hope they scan all the time. Paranoia is one of the primary reasons cloaking is effective. 3 res burnt everytime they scan hoping to find me. I'll take that.
- recon fire? I wish all marines did this. Then I'll know exactly where they are and where they are looking from a much greater distance. Announce you're on the way... that would be great. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
- find by sound? Um... if I'm cloaked, I'm not moving. No sounds there for the most part unless you are standing around in a hallway SO long you catch an idle sound. And if you are, I wasn't doing my job of killing you.
- phase gates help find cloaked aliens how? Heck, I'll just camp the phase itself. It's like a Marine vending machine! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
- finally... a valid argument against it. Yes, motion tracking definitely takes cloaking down a notch... from devastating, to just annoying. Still, if you plan ahead and play smart, you can get the drop on marines. Doesn't render cloaking completely useless, and by the point in the game that MT is guaranteed to be in for the marines, you can be running around as Fades and making use of Scent of Fear instead of cloaking.
In short, I don't see where most of your arguments against sensory in the early game stand up. That's just me though. *shrug*
Before I go on, when I say "You Suck," I don't mean you suck. I mean you just are not a "good" marine, only average at best. If mediocrity is goal, then you won't care. If you hope to compete in a clan environ, then you will never do well unless you change your playstyle.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- Travel in groups? I hope so. That's a much greater chance that one will bump RIGHT INTO me as they walk down the hall. And be lined up so I can kill two or three in rapid succession.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, you're playing marines who can't aim. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If you can't aim DAMN well, you SUCK as a marine. You are cannon fodder, or, as my clanmate put it, "Full-Time Builder Guy." Also, refer down to my explanation of movement with a pointman.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- build observatories? Out in the middle of a hallway? Where do you think a Skulk will be cloaked... right next to your comm chair?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You put them next to TF installations to prevent cloaking regen. Good marines don't walk place to place. They phase. They're only walking in VERY early game, and to get to second hive. Also, refer to Warhound's explanation of recon by fire: If you ain't firing one round to areas where a cloaker might be, then you suck.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- scanning? I hope they scan all the time. Paranoia is one of the primary reasons cloaking is effective. 3 res burnt everytime they scan hoping to find me. I'll take that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your squad is about to move into a room. 3 res, all skulks are now visible. Its about the comm's judgement, and the marine's ability to shoot. They should be able to clear hallways with ease, if they know how to move (pointman == WAY in front, so if he gets jumped, the rest see where it came from and kill it, and if the rest get jumped, pointman is clear, and if all the marines are good, only 1 man will be lost). When they reach a hive area, or any large area, then a scan is in order. Cause remember: You have to be pretty damned stupid to not think "Dur, I can just fire a couple rounds through the hallway to see if there's any blood. Hell, even a whole clip, since I don't suck and I know how to aim and fire in bursts should I see an alien." Pointman always carries shotty, so if a skulk is cloaked in the middle of the hallway and he walks into him, one shotgun shell > one bite. And GOOD pointmen make that shell count.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- recon fire? I wish all marines did this. Then I'll know exactly where they are and where they are looking from a much greater distance. Announce you're on the way... that would be great. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless the marines CONSTANTLY crouch, they make a very loud "clang clang clang" sound while running, and even while walking. You REALLY suck if you can't hear this, cause you should be playing with loud volume if you want to hear people. And if you don't want to hear people, so sorry, you suck. What's the point? Recon fire don't matter unless you're crouching, cause you'll hear that ****.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- find by sound? Um... if I'm cloaked, I'm not moving. No sounds there for the most part unless you are standing around in a hallway SO long you catch an idle sound. And if you are, I wasn't doing my job of killing you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Refer to recon fire/movement with a pointman, for the third time. Little slow, are we?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- phase gates help find cloaked aliens how? Heck, I'll just camp the phase itself. It's like a Marine vending machine! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, the comm your playing sucks so bad he didn't build the TF clipped into a wall with a triangle of SG's covering it?
Seriously, if you're playing marines that suck, you don't need tactics.
<!--QuoteBegin--Stung256+Jan 27 2003, 03:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stung256 @ Jan 27 2003, 03:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Jetpack rush? To do this my good sir, you need tons of Resource Towers, and given the number of cloaked skulks running around securing 2 nodes is quite difficult. This given, if the alien team has at lease two or three competint (sp?) lerks to take care the few Marines equipped with Jets, your tactic is null and void. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You have no idea what you are talking about right? Jetpack rush does not need ANY extra resource towers.
Also, I see sensory being better than before, but movement still sucks, and def is still the best.
Lt.Warhound all you said is just theory. Cloaking as a first upgrade is really great because you can contain marines in their base.
Once I got into their base and was cloaked as a skulk. I parasited everyone, everyone who tried to leave the base. When you shoot, you stay uncloaked somethinkg like half a second and then you cloak again. The marines knew I was there, and one gyu I parasited turned around to find where I am. Well... I was cloaked before he made 180 degrees lol. If you do this tactic, aliens have a much better form of motion tracking... All aliens know exactly where all marines are. Pretty annoying for them.
ps: this is not theory, I made it and it works fine. The most difficult part in it is to get in their base, but it was easy on eclipse.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
With the changes to sensory and carapace, dropping a single sensory chamber as the very first thing is likely to lead to an easier <b>early</b> game for aliens (ie the first 10 min) than going defense first. With carapace lvl 1 and 2 crippled in 1.04, you need three DC's to make much of a difference (the second DC is especially useless), while a single sensory is good enough for the whole of the early game. That's a 10 vs 42 res cost (in 1.03, it was the other way around - 30 v 14, as the first DC gave you most of the protection from carapace, while sensory required three chambers before they became useful).
However, the usefulness of sensory is just too easily negated as Wolfhound points out, meaning that going sensory first will trade a SLIGHTLY easier early game with a MUCH harder midgame.
Also, MT is just about the cheapest and most powerful upgrade in the whole game, and it incidentially makes the least capable alien upgrade pretty much useless.
I would recommend sensory first on 6v6 or smaller servers though - small server marines need all the help they can get, as they have been hurt bad by the marine structure cost increases.
<!--QuoteBegin--Canadianmonk3y+Jan 28 2003, 02:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Canadianmonk3y @ Jan 28 2003, 02:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Jetpack rush does not need ANY extra resource towers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Depends on size of server... if its large(10v10), marines get 5 res from their STARTING node per tick, and therefore I see that happening easily, but on more balanced servers(7v7), well... Anyways. Yes I played a game with sensory first, we aliens lost, after long time, when the marines had finally teched up to doomguard status(what I call HA/HMG+welder[welder= correct spelling. Not weilder, or wiedlder or anything with the letter i in it.]<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->), cause they very swiftly took the 2nd hive, and most of us aliens weren't all that good(excepting me obviously :PPPP). Gorge didn't ask us first however, so I asked him if he was a new player to NS... he didn't respond... when people dont say anything at all, I take it as a bad sign that they are newbies/lamers/other bad thing... I wonder why there has (after 1.04 release)been such an upswing for killing the D>M>S order. Hmm.
<!--QuoteBegin--BlueGhost+Jan 27 2003, 09:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BlueGhost @ Jan 27 2003, 09:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Jetpack rush is still easy to do even on 7v7, which is what I play on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aaha! However in true canadian monkey style:
You're only able to do that because the aliens on your server are NEWBS!
Streight JP rush don't work too good anyway.. 8 def chambers under the hive (especially if their gorge gets himself in position to heal asewell) and you'll have a hell of a job killing the hive.
JP + HMG + Upgrades 'rush' and you damn well do need res points or they'll have fades befor you leave base (unless they quite patently suck and start building some offys first or something)..
I mean in 1.04 if the marines aren't capping enough res to go the whole HA/HMG + GL groups the aliens can put a field of offy chambers around the hive.
Must say I really love 1.04 its made all the stratagy's far more reactive and on the fly <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
BlueGhost <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What do you think the marines are doing while the teching is going on...? Theyre keeping pressure on the hive of course. And if the marines let the gorge get up 8 DC.. Well then you have pretty **** marines
Comments
We had a hive completely secured. We nearly had another one but the marines died before i had time to spawn a TF... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
spawn a tf first? and they weren't bad marines?
they could have killed you easily with jetpacks or phase gates if they knew what they were doing, since none of your buildings healed themselves and I doubt one or two gorges could heal all the chambers and hive(s) in the map fast enough.
- don't travel in groups
- don't build observatories (they cancel cloak in a radius around the observatory)
- don't scan
- don't do recon by fire (firing a few shots at likely ambush spots, or a shot from the GL, then hosing down the blood splatters)
- don't do recon by fire at spots they heard the sounds of alien movement
- don't set up phase gates between bases
- don't research motion tracking.
Against marines like that, you don't need cloak. On the other hand, if they do those things, cloak won't help.
Face it, you aren't the first people to try S before D. Its been done, to death. November was spent trying everything out, and sorry, but cloak doesn't cut it.
Is it fun? Yep, loads of fun. I love playing sneaky, aliens were my chosen class in AvP2. I lived for the sneak kill, death from the shadows, and didn't worry about my frag score.
Can you win using cloak? Yep. But against marines of that skill level, it doesn't matter what chamber sequence you use.
Is it as effective as D first? Nope. Not even close.
Cloak doesn't do a thing, when you are being fired on. Which happens anytime you need to attack. Which is often.
To keep marines pinned. To kill expansions. To take out their base.
Any time you need to attack something, cloak is gone. Carapace is forever. Well, til dead.
Carapace vs cloak, no contest. Def chamber seconday effects vs Sensory chamber, no contest (healing vs 'it might parasite if the marine touches it and probably won't' - never parasites me as I knife the S chamber down).
Marines can EASILY negate cloak. Scan. Build another observatory. Fire at the blue circle that takes a while to go away when you stop moving to let the cloak kick in.
Carapace? Nope, short of killing you, marines can't negate it.
Who needs cloak to ambush people? Just tuck into a niche or corner, or in the shadows, and drop down on top of them. Every bit as effective as cloaking, more so since it takes no time to kick in and observatories don't negate it.
If my team puts up sensory, cloak isn't what I take. Sense of fear is. Knowing exactly where that marine is, up around the corner, means I'm biting him before he knows he's under attack.
I know, I know, I can hear it now. If you move up ahead of the marines, far enough ahead to stop moving and lose the motion detection giveaway circle and let cloak kick in, you are hard to detect, short of a commander scan. Guess what? If its an important location, the commander should be spending those 3 rp to scan as the marines are about to move in. If its not important enough to scan, then odds are the marines aren't going there. And you just waste your time waiting, waiting, waiting....
Or you set up in ambush right where they have to go, to travel from their spawn base to the hive they fortified. They have to travel that route...or do they? Phase gate. And you just waste your time waiting, waiting, waiting....
For that matter who needs silence, marines on the move make more than enough noise to cover the sound of a skulk running up behind them, and with celerity you can get there in time to keep him from turning around.
Skulk. Move fast, hit hard and get out of the way when the bullets fly.
Went bit off topic, but I just couldn't find any other "hot" thread where I could tell about my experience. 1.04 rocks! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>Note:</b> "Auto-healing" is not part of v1.04, but some kind of server add-on or plug-in.
We're talking about sensory chambers at the start of the game, so attacking marine bases isn't a priority. Skulks should be parasiting and harrassing marines, not attacking the base. So sensory in this case is probably more effective than defence. Think about it. To use a defence chamber for the purpose of healing attacking allies you're going to have to use lots of resources your team does not have at the beginning of a game to build loads of defence chamber lines. To use a sensory chamber for the purpose of cloaking and harrassing marines you only have to build one chamber back in the safety of your base and that's it.
The chambers were originally supposed to be equally choosable in the beginning of the game and this thread has increased my hopes in the experimental strategies of public servers... Nice one lads <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I have been going on various servers constantly trying to convince people to try sensory or movement first. Believe it or not, the games where we DID try MC or SC first, were some of the BEST games we have EVER had.
For those of you (50% of you) that cursed at me and made comments about my mom or my sexuality, I will no longer argue with you, because you are ruining a great game for yourself, not playing it to the full potential.
Some VERY stubborn people cannot think for themselves, and figure out how to change their tactics according to MC or SC.
YES the buildings can't heal themselves anymore, then have u thought about cloaked ambush ALONG with the offensives? Uncloak and eat them while they're busy with the offensives?
YES without andrenaline, a Fade will have a harder time acid-rocketting down a base. But have you EVER thought about using skulks? My friends and I have taken down entire bases with 8, 9 turrets by putting 1 cloaked skulk in front, and the rest of us with regen + cloak, we'd run into the TF, bite, cloak when hurt, regen back our HP, uncloak and bite away again.
I suggest everyone reading this, that agrees with me, do the same thing I'm doing: Any server that I join I immediately suggest that we try movement or cloak first. DO NOT worry about people cursing at you and calling u a n00b, they usually shut up after I end the game with 28:2 and only using celerity + cloak.
Of course now you're also getting a lot of the die-hards screaming "0h n0! t3h f4des 4r3 useless w/o adrenaline!" or "omg omg teh structures will di3 with0ut d3f3nse ch4mbers!"
Like anything else, if you play sensory the same way you tried to play with defense you're going to lose, because *gasp* IT REQUIRES YOU TO THINK A DIFFERENT WAY! *shudders*...
This should be beneficial to the community, might actually get some people thinking that there's other ways to win than just having "l337 aiming skillz" or having a fade that can pump out 5 acid rockets a volley.
Wow, sucks to be you.
But if this is happening on every server that *YOU'RE* on...
Hmm...
To the other guy:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"To become a truly effective alien, you must stop basing the chamber order around your playing style. Instead you must base your playing style around the chamber order"
Basically, an alien who can own the marines regardless of the chamber order has a distinct advantage over an alien who can only own the marines with one chamber order.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is based on the assumption that all chambers are equally viable choices when they clearly aren't. If they were, why would Flayra make it a point that 1.1 will make every chamber an equally viable first choice?
And also, that quotation is completely wrong. The #1 major influence on my playing style is how the marines are playing and what strategy they're using. Defense chambers cover pretty much anything the marines can do, whereas sensories first to get cloaking pretty much assumes the marines will be rushing the main hive. What if they aren't though? What if they just grabbed 3 nodes, guard them & their main with marines (and not wasting money on useless sentries) while they are tech rushing? Not only will your cloaking will be useless, but your lack of carapace and structure/hive healing will be your demise. You won't be able to rush them (no carapace skulks die so fast to marines who can aim), you won't be able to stop them when they come with their tech either (and they'll get it fast if they don't waste any resources). What if they lock down a hive or two? What if the comm scans before his squad enters an area? There are so many things that can go wrong. Carapace can handle pretty much anything, cloaking only a specific marine strategy that isn't even popular anymore.
Besides, I can ambush just fine without cloaking, I just have to be more careful when I choose my spot.
Very, VERY well said.
- don't travel in groups
- don't build observatories (they cancel cloak in a radius around the observatory)
- don't scan
- don't do recon by fire (firing a few shots at likely ambush spots, or a shot from the GL, then hosing down the blood splatters)
- don't do recon by fire at spots they heard the sounds of alien movement
- don't set up phase gates between bases
- don't research motion tracking.
Against marines like that, you don't need cloak. On the other hand, if they do those things, cloak won't help. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
- Travel in groups? I hope so. That's a much greater chance that one will bump RIGHT INTO me as they walk down the hall. And be lined up so I can kill two or three in rapid succession.
- build observatories? Out in the middle of a hallway? Where do you think a Skulk will be cloaked... right next to your comm chair?
- scanning? I hope they scan all the time. Paranoia is one of the primary reasons cloaking is effective. 3 res burnt everytime they scan hoping to find me. I'll take that.
- recon fire? I wish all marines did this. Then I'll know exactly where they are and where they are looking from a much greater distance. Announce you're on the way... that would be great. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
- find by sound? Um... if I'm cloaked, I'm not moving. No sounds there for the most part unless you are standing around in a hallway SO long you catch an idle sound. And if you are, I wasn't doing my job of killing you.
- phase gates help find cloaked aliens how? Heck, I'll just camp the phase itself. It's like a Marine vending machine! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
- finally... a valid argument against it. Yes, motion tracking definitely takes cloaking down a notch... from devastating, to just annoying. Still, if you plan ahead and play smart, you can get the drop on marines. Doesn't render cloaking completely useless, and by the point in the game that MT is guaranteed to be in for the marines, you can be running around as Fades and making use of Scent of Fear instead of cloaking.
In short, I don't see where most of your arguments against sensory in the early game stand up. That's just me though. *shrug*
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- Travel in groups? I hope so. That's a much greater chance that one will bump RIGHT INTO me as they walk down the hall. And be lined up so I can kill two or three in rapid succession.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, you're playing marines who can't aim. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If you can't aim DAMN well, you SUCK as a marine. You are cannon fodder, or, as my clanmate put it, "Full-Time Builder Guy." Also, refer down to my explanation of movement with a pointman.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- build observatories? Out in the middle of a hallway? Where do you think a Skulk will be cloaked... right next to your comm chair?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You put them next to TF installations to prevent cloaking regen. Good marines don't walk place to place. They phase. They're only walking in VERY early game, and to get to second hive. Also, refer to Warhound's explanation of recon by fire: If you ain't firing one round to areas where a cloaker might be, then you suck.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- scanning? I hope they scan all the time. Paranoia is one of the primary reasons cloaking is effective. 3 res burnt everytime they scan hoping to find me. I'll take that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your squad is about to move into a room. 3 res, all skulks are now visible. Its about the comm's judgement, and the marine's ability to shoot. They should be able to clear hallways with ease, if they know how to move (pointman == WAY in front, so if he gets jumped, the rest see where it came from and kill it, and if the rest get jumped, pointman is clear, and if all the marines are good, only 1 man will be lost). When they reach a hive area, or any large area, then a scan is in order. Cause remember: You have to be pretty damned stupid to not think "Dur, I can just fire a couple rounds through the hallway to see if there's any blood. Hell, even a whole clip, since I don't suck and I know how to aim and fire in bursts should I see an alien." Pointman always carries shotty, so if a skulk is cloaked in the middle of the hallway and he walks into him, one shotgun shell > one bite. And GOOD pointmen make that shell count.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- recon fire? I wish all marines did this. Then I'll know exactly where they are and where they are looking from a much greater distance. Announce you're on the way... that would be great. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless the marines CONSTANTLY crouch, they make a very loud "clang clang clang" sound while running, and even while walking. You REALLY suck if you can't hear this, cause you should be playing with loud volume if you want to hear people. And if you don't want to hear people, so sorry, you suck. What's the point? Recon fire don't matter unless you're crouching, cause you'll hear that ****.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- find by sound? Um... if I'm cloaked, I'm not moving. No sounds there for the most part unless you are standing around in a hallway SO long you catch an idle sound. And if you are, I wasn't doing my job of killing you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Refer to recon fire/movement with a pointman, for the third time. Little slow, are we?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- phase gates help find cloaked aliens how? Heck, I'll just camp the phase itself. It's like a Marine vending machine! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, the comm your playing sucks so bad he didn't build the TF clipped into a wall with a triangle of SG's covering it?
Seriously, if you're playing marines that suck, you don't need tactics.
You have no idea what you are talking about right?
Jetpack rush does not need ANY extra resource towers.
Also, I see sensory being better than before, but movement still sucks, and def is still the best.
Once I got into their base and was cloaked as a skulk. I parasited everyone, everyone who tried to leave the base. When you shoot, you stay uncloaked somethinkg like half a second and then you cloak again. The marines knew I was there, and one gyu I parasited turned around to find where I am. Well... I was cloaked before he made 180 degrees lol.
If you do this tactic, aliens have a much better form of motion tracking... All aliens know exactly where all marines are. Pretty annoying for them.
ps: this is not theory, I made it and it works fine. The most difficult part in it is to get in their base, but it was easy on eclipse.
But we just did it AGAIN TONIGHT.
Wub j00 skulks!
Thanks to Firestorm for being a suitably evil Skulk for me to shoot at (we tried it the other way, with me as Marines & Fire on aliens)
However, the usefulness of sensory is just too easily negated as Wolfhound points out, meaning that going sensory first will trade a SLIGHTLY easier early game with a MUCH harder midgame.
Also, MT is just about the cheapest and most powerful upgrade in the whole game, and it incidentially makes the least capable alien upgrade pretty much useless.
I would recommend sensory first on 6v6 or smaller servers though - small server marines need all the help they can get, as they have been hurt bad by the marine structure cost increases.
They could have just won with NO chambers.
Depends on size of server... if its large(10v10), marines get 5 res from their STARTING node per tick, and therefore I see that happening easily, but on more balanced servers(7v7), well...
Anyways. Yes I played a game with sensory first, we aliens lost, after long time, when the marines had finally teched up to doomguard status(what I call HA/HMG+welder[welder= correct spelling. Not weilder, or wiedlder or anything with the letter i in it.]<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->), cause they very swiftly took the 2nd hive, and most of us aliens weren't all that good(excepting me obviously :PPPP). Gorge didn't ask us first however, so I asked him if he was a new player to NS... he didn't respond... when people dont say anything at all, I take it as a bad sign that they are newbies/lamers/other bad thing...
I wonder why there has (after 1.04 release)been such an upswing for killing the D>M>S order. Hmm.
Aaha! However in true canadian monkey style:
You're only able to do that because the aliens on your server are NEWBS!
Streight JP rush don't work too good anyway.. 8 def chambers under the hive (especially if their gorge gets himself in position to heal asewell) and you'll have a hell of a job killing the hive.
JP + HMG + Upgrades 'rush' and you damn well do need res points or they'll have fades befor you leave base (unless they quite patently suck and start building some offys first or something)..
I mean in 1.04 if the marines aren't capping enough res to go the whole HA/HMG + GL groups the aliens can put a field of offy chambers around the hive.
Must say I really love 1.04 its made all the stratagy's far more reactive and on the fly <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
BlueGhost <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What do you think the marines are doing while the teching is going on...? Theyre keeping pressure on the hive of course. And if the marines let the gorge get up 8 DC.. Well then you have pretty **** marines