Ns_nothing Balance Problems
matso
Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<div class="IPBDescription">Cargo Bay - marine wet dream?</div> I find ns_nothing to be a really nice looking, unique map. However ... does anyone else find ns_nothing games to be very dependent on the alien starting position? If they start in cargo, the marines have about two resources - forbidden antechamber and the powersilo resource they can call their own (ie, have a significantly shorter route to compared to the aliens). From cargo, all the upper level resource nodes are in the alien sphere of influence, so to speak. You can't really build them and expect them to live unless guarded at all times or fortified.
The aliens, OTOH, has 5 res nodes adjecent to the hive - 3 in cargo, the generator room and the below vent res node.
While it can be discussed if that many resource nodes are useful to the aliens - after all, you don't have TIME to build more than three res nodes before the skulks are full and you need to rush to the hive location to build it - it is certainly good (read necessary) for the aliens to deny those res nodes to the marines.
Now, if the aliens DON'T start in cargo, the picture is COMPLETLY different. Suddenly the marines have a nearby empty hive with 3 res nodes controllable by a single TF (basically, the only tripple-res location among all maps), and the rest of the upper hive res nodes are firmly in their sphere of influence, ie they can expect to build them and fairly easily defend them, for a total of 7! res nodes.
From the alien side, things look far grimmer. Starting in powersilo, you have only one res node, the forbidden antechamber, which can be taken out by a marine sitting in the vent above. Kismet, below cargo vent and great viaduct is what you can build and expect to hold.. and the below cargo vent is easily taken out by a marine sitting in the vent from cargo.
You can't expect to reach cargo before the marines, neither from the great viaduct and especially not from powersilo. The fastest way up is a vent which can be covered by a single marine against any number of skulks. The generator room is also hard to take, as the marines can just ensure the elevator is up at all times, forcing you to announce your attack to any defenders in the room when you call down the elevator.
Now, it isn't impossible for the aliens to win if they start in power silo or viaduct - I've seen it happen. But it seems to be far, far harder to win as aliens[1], compared to a cargo start.
Personally, I belive the map would be fairer if it lost 3 resource nodes - 2 from cargo and the generator room one should be about right. That would put the number of resource nodes down to the more common 9 nodes[2], and make an empty starting cargo bay somewhat less of a marine commanders wet dream.
[1] Read: require a really awful marine commander/team.
[2] An interesting thought here is really that more resources nodes always work to the disadvantage of aliens. Aliens don't need much more than 4-5 res nodes to get hive up and fades reasonably quickly - more res nodes don't really speed up the before-fade game much. OTOH, more res nodes are always good for the marines.
The aliens, OTOH, has 5 res nodes adjecent to the hive - 3 in cargo, the generator room and the below vent res node.
While it can be discussed if that many resource nodes are useful to the aliens - after all, you don't have TIME to build more than three res nodes before the skulks are full and you need to rush to the hive location to build it - it is certainly good (read necessary) for the aliens to deny those res nodes to the marines.
Now, if the aliens DON'T start in cargo, the picture is COMPLETLY different. Suddenly the marines have a nearby empty hive with 3 res nodes controllable by a single TF (basically, the only tripple-res location among all maps), and the rest of the upper hive res nodes are firmly in their sphere of influence, ie they can expect to build them and fairly easily defend them, for a total of 7! res nodes.
From the alien side, things look far grimmer. Starting in powersilo, you have only one res node, the forbidden antechamber, which can be taken out by a marine sitting in the vent above. Kismet, below cargo vent and great viaduct is what you can build and expect to hold.. and the below cargo vent is easily taken out by a marine sitting in the vent from cargo.
You can't expect to reach cargo before the marines, neither from the great viaduct and especially not from powersilo. The fastest way up is a vent which can be covered by a single marine against any number of skulks. The generator room is also hard to take, as the marines can just ensure the elevator is up at all times, forcing you to announce your attack to any defenders in the room when you call down the elevator.
Now, it isn't impossible for the aliens to win if they start in power silo or viaduct - I've seen it happen. But it seems to be far, far harder to win as aliens[1], compared to a cargo start.
Personally, I belive the map would be fairer if it lost 3 resource nodes - 2 from cargo and the generator room one should be about right. That would put the number of resource nodes down to the more common 9 nodes[2], and make an empty starting cargo bay somewhat less of a marine commanders wet dream.
[1] Read: require a really awful marine commander/team.
[2] An interesting thought here is really that more resources nodes always work to the disadvantage of aliens. Aliens don't need much more than 4-5 res nodes to get hive up and fades reasonably quickly - more res nodes don't really speed up the before-fade game much. OTOH, more res nodes are always good for the marines.
Comments
It has been long debated on the server I play on if ns_nothing has too many resources nodes. I happen to agree that there are a few too many nodes on that map.
The problem is not with cargo being an important location. The problem is how randomly spawning in 1 hive instead of another can greatly affect your chances of winning the game. It's more pronounced in ns_nothing than in any other map i've scrimmed on, mainly because of cargo and the general layout of the map.
I agree with matso, the map is rather flawed. Although the real flaw is the idea of aliens spawning in a random location. It's very difficult to create an interesting map where 1 spawn location does not have an advantage over another, and this is very problematic from a competitive viewpoint. I can picture a tournement final in my head with an alien team praying they spawn in the 'good' hive, and the marines praying that they don't.
It would still be unknown the enemy and easy to execute...
I think that rp will be more important for the aliens in 1.04
Fades will cost 10 more so to get at good ROS (rate of spawn <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->) of fades you are going to need to keep those res pumping in.
BTW, one way to deny res to marines is to build rc. Then the marines have to kill it before they can build wich will alert all skulks. When I'm in patrol mode an red circle will make me move from any place on the map to that place in most cases in less than a minute or even 30sec. Most marines have their backs turned while they kill rc and ham is my favoirt part on marine <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Because of this there's nothing to stop the marines doing a full re-locate to the red-room and then just sit back wait full upgrades befor coming out, sure the game will last about 5-10 hours but hey they'll WIN in the end....
BlueGhost
I HATE NOOBS, anything with the name nsplayer on a server should be kicked ...lol <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
zippy
agreed
zippy
god i quoting alot on this = POWERSILE IS EASY TO DEFEND. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
zippy
The thing I hate about NS nothing is it has a siege point which is un-assailable if they just put say 6 turrets and 1 GL in there.
Because of this there's nothing to stop the marines doing a full re-locate to the red-room and then just sit back wait full upgrades befor coming out, sure the game will last about 5-10 hours but hey they'll WIN in the end....
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fortunately, that tactice won't do much good in 1.04. With only 10 res per minute (assuming the marines don't have any respoints), the commander won't be able to keep any sieges inside firing more than 3 times per minute. That allows the Kharaa to build lots of defense chambers, as well as sacrificial chambers on top of the great viaduct hive.
That means the third hive will come up, and thus the poison gas, and thus the marines will be flushed out and killed dead.
Damn, I wish 1.04 would be released right now, potential bugs and all. 1.03's is getting OLD.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Really though, you can only claim that something is a "balance problem" if it is only advantageous to 1 side; and it appears to me that if EITHER side controls that hive/area, then they get an advantage.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The aliens advantage is really that the marines don't get 7 fairly easily defended respoints. The aliens would be PERFECTLY happy to get rid of the two respoints at cargo and the generator hive res point as well. It really doesn't matter to them, as the below vent, kismet and vent res points is all they will have time to build before 2nd hive anyhow.
So if the aliens hold cargo, they have maybe a 55-45 advantage. If they don't start in cargo,they have a 25-75 disadvantage. Summing them up, the marines have more use of the cargo location then the aliens (numbers pulled from the usual place, but you get the idea - the alien advantage is small, the marines advantage is huge).
Because of this there's nothing to stop the marines doing a full re-locate to the red-room and then just sit back wait full upgrades befor coming out, sure the game will last about 5-10 hours but hey they'll WIN in the end....
BlueGhost[/QUOTE]
Fortunately, that tactice won't do much good in 1.04. With only 10 res per minute (assuming the marines don't have any respoints), the commander won't be able to keep any sieges inside firing more than 3 times per minute. That allows the Kharaa to build lots of defense chambers, as well as sacrificial chambers on top of the great viaduct hive.
That means the third hive will come up, and thus the poison gas, and thus the marines will be flushed out and killed dead.
Damn, I wish 1.04 would be released right now, potential bugs and all. 1.03's is getting OLD.
[QUOTE=kilminster]
Really though, you can only claim that something is a "balance problem" if it is only advantageous to 1 side; and it appears to me that if EITHER side controls that hive/area, then they get an advantage.
[/QUOTE]
The aliens advantage is really that the marines don't get 7 fairly easily defended respoints. The aliens would be PERFECTLY happy to get rid of the two respoints at cargo and the generator hive res point as well. It really doesn't matter to them, as the below vent, kismet and vent res points is all they will have time to build before 2nd hive anyhow.
So if the aliens hold cargo, they have maybe a 55-45 advantage. If they don't start in cargo,they have a 25-75 disadvantage. Summing them up, the marines have more use of the cargo location then the aliens (numbers pulled from the usual place, but you get the idea - the alien advantage is small, the marines advantage is huge).
I suppose I play commander a tad too much...
Because of this there's nothing to stop the marines doing a full re-locate to the red-room and then just sit back wait full upgrades befor coming out, sure the game will last about 5-10 hours but hey they'll WIN in the end....
BlueGhost<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ever hear of mass toxic spore?
ever hear of mass toxic spore?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Siege cannons in the red room vent reach the hive preventing toxic spore.
But it still ain't pretty. Cargo has been discussed to death here - but there are other issues. Nice long corridors, rooms and vents connecting every crucial location mean skulks struggle to counter any x.mg attack, and massively tall hive rooms (complete with ledges) mean JPing is still an almost ridiculous nightmare for aliens. Ever tried defending silo against 2 JP rush lmgrs?
Forget about it - you can't.
Nice long ceiling run approaches, then zippity doo-dah they fly around out of range from anything but an occasional lerk spike.
I think the easiest balance answer is to simply add some (*climbable*) kinks to the ends of the cargo-via vent, and to *remove* the kinks from some access point to the Red Room (so acid rockets can maybe have a chance of chasing the marines out).
Also the height might be lowered - If marine structures sank in there it wouldve stopped JP-instant-wins in 103, but maybe this isn't called for anymore...
Maybe removing 2 res nodes from the map reducing it from its what, 13 is it, currently - and one of those the nearer one to the marine's from cargo.
JPing may only be fixable by nerfing the pack though.
considering theres a place that can seige 2 hives and the aliens cannot kill teh structures put there...
I discussed the red room I believe - but now it can't cover both hives in 104.
ns_Nothing is a total marine map for the following reasons:
1) The Red Room. 'Nuff said.
2) The power silo rafters. If ONE jetpacker gets in unnoticed, its GG aliens, assuming the comm was smart enough to grab the Red Room too.
3) The ease in which marines can assault Cargo hive. Accesibility isn't the issue, the fact that guns > melee in the vent is the bigger one here.
4) All the elevators have small openings that allow you to shoot nades through to break any elevator-stopping DCs (or OCs or whatever the gorge chose to use, typically DCs).
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah, Just give a really stupid name to humiliate them into changing it to something (anything!) else. I can't think of any names that don't involve bizarre animal sex acts, so I'll refrain from contributing....