Alien Team Resource Donation
coil
Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<div class="IPBDescription">past, present, and future</div> A playtester's perspective on the alien resource donation idea.
Some servers, such as the oft-mentioned Voogru's servers, have a modification which allows aliens to donate resources back to the team, giving a gorge a more effective income flow. Is this fair? balanced? exploitive? game-breaking? needed? wanted?
Well, let's see.
1) THE PAST.
Donating was tried out during playtest, and it seemed to work fairly well. You spawned, and you had 2 options - run off because you're saving up for lerk/gorge/whatever, or donate your RPs to the hive (you +used the hive to return resources to the pool) before running off as a skulk. Eventually, however, donating was removed. The general sentiment of the developers and the playtesters was that there were two situations:
-a- your team had to donate to be effective. In this scenario, aliens might be in trouble in pubs, where lone-wolf players wouldn't want to donate. This would leave the aliens high and dry for RPs.
-b- your team could be effective without donation. In this scenario, clan matches would be horribly unbalanced in favor of aliens. The gorge(s) on a fully coordinated, donating team would be rolling in RPs, totally out-building the marines.
For this reason - that it could not be balanced between pubs and clan matches - donating was removed.
2) THE PRESENT.
Donating exists only on those servers that have added plugin code for it - e.g. voogru's servers. In my opinion, this is unbalancing in favor of the aliens; they are currently balanced to not require donation, and so the extra flow of RPs allows the gorge to build structures much faster than he ought to be able to.
Whether or not the original fear of the devs and playtesters - that donation requires more teamwork than can be expected from pub serves - I do not know. I've seen a great deal of teamplay and coordination on pub servers, though my experience has been unfortunately limited (silly "classes" and "senior year thesis"). My inclination from a lot of what I've seen is that teamplay is more common than we feared (that's good), but still not high enough to allow *necessary* donation to become an added element.
3) THE FUTURE.
In my opinion, donation might be a viable option. Regardless, the alien resource system needs some reworking to allow multiple gorges to not bankrupt a team, and this alteration is planned for 1.1.
However, I think the current system allows a more open-ended gameplay than a donation system would. Currently, an early-game gorge that drops a resource tower is down to 0 RPs while the skulks around him are at 25 or so by that point. It might be advantageous to wait for the skulks to "cap out" at 33, but then again it might be better for one of the skulks to switch with the gorge and drop his own RT. A 6-man team could have 4+ Resource Towers and a blindingly fast RP income if they're willing to slightly delay their 2nd hive. It also gives each player on the team a chance at different roles, while a donation system can quickly let a single person stay gorge the whole game. While some people are happier that way, I think a more open-ended system makes for a more interesting game.
So my opinion? Donation might be feasible; at least some parts of the community have shown a great willingness to play as team members and not just frag-hunters. Regardless of its feasibility, however, I think a no-donation system, especially once the resource model is tweaked to allow more flexibility, will offer a more varied and interesting game.
Some servers, such as the oft-mentioned Voogru's servers, have a modification which allows aliens to donate resources back to the team, giving a gorge a more effective income flow. Is this fair? balanced? exploitive? game-breaking? needed? wanted?
Well, let's see.
1) THE PAST.
Donating was tried out during playtest, and it seemed to work fairly well. You spawned, and you had 2 options - run off because you're saving up for lerk/gorge/whatever, or donate your RPs to the hive (you +used the hive to return resources to the pool) before running off as a skulk. Eventually, however, donating was removed. The general sentiment of the developers and the playtesters was that there were two situations:
-a- your team had to donate to be effective. In this scenario, aliens might be in trouble in pubs, where lone-wolf players wouldn't want to donate. This would leave the aliens high and dry for RPs.
-b- your team could be effective without donation. In this scenario, clan matches would be horribly unbalanced in favor of aliens. The gorge(s) on a fully coordinated, donating team would be rolling in RPs, totally out-building the marines.
For this reason - that it could not be balanced between pubs and clan matches - donating was removed.
2) THE PRESENT.
Donating exists only on those servers that have added plugin code for it - e.g. voogru's servers. In my opinion, this is unbalancing in favor of the aliens; they are currently balanced to not require donation, and so the extra flow of RPs allows the gorge to build structures much faster than he ought to be able to.
Whether or not the original fear of the devs and playtesters - that donation requires more teamwork than can be expected from pub serves - I do not know. I've seen a great deal of teamplay and coordination on pub servers, though my experience has been unfortunately limited (silly "classes" and "senior year thesis"). My inclination from a lot of what I've seen is that teamplay is more common than we feared (that's good), but still not high enough to allow *necessary* donation to become an added element.
3) THE FUTURE.
In my opinion, donation might be a viable option. Regardless, the alien resource system needs some reworking to allow multiple gorges to not bankrupt a team, and this alteration is planned for 1.1.
However, I think the current system allows a more open-ended gameplay than a donation system would. Currently, an early-game gorge that drops a resource tower is down to 0 RPs while the skulks around him are at 25 or so by that point. It might be advantageous to wait for the skulks to "cap out" at 33, but then again it might be better for one of the skulks to switch with the gorge and drop his own RT. A 6-man team could have 4+ Resource Towers and a blindingly fast RP income if they're willing to slightly delay their 2nd hive. It also gives each player on the team a chance at different roles, while a donation system can quickly let a single person stay gorge the whole game. While some people are happier that way, I think a more open-ended system makes for a more interesting game.
So my opinion? Donation might be feasible; at least some parts of the community have shown a great willingness to play as team members and not just frag-hunters. Regardless of its feasibility, however, I think a no-donation system, especially once the resource model is tweaked to allow more flexibility, will offer a more varied and interesting game.
Comments
I agree... resource donating would add a whole new dimension to team gameplay, but the fact is many community members are not mature enough to use it effectively.
The alien resource model does need extreme reworking, and that is a given. The fact is that on many pubs ... matches are won and lost all the time because of gorge use. Simply having one person who gorges and refuses to listen to the rest of the team can put a huge splinter in the Alien early game. It could be viable in a team atmosphere, but sadly it wont play in the pubs. I believe we just need to explore other options to make multiple gorges viable. Or at least a way to make it so that one lone wolf cannot derail the entire team.
Balance will always be an ongoing issue with this game. We just need to be intelligent and discuss the topic rationally.
Once again... a post that was a pleasure to read.
Donation may help the aliens get established sooner, but they stand on shaky footing longer. Aliens who donate resources to the gorge now have fewer if not ZERO resources, and as such need to wait that much longer to go fade when the second is finished. At that point some people can 'sacrifice' and choose to stay as skulk so others can go fade. Normally ALL aliens could go fade not long after the second hive dropped. That doesn't happen anymore. So you end up with a smaller group of fades a bit sooner, compaed to a larger group of fades later.
I think resource donation is a sympton of a different problem though. The game is seriously unbalanced in the favour of marines, ESPECIALLY in the resource economy. What donation does is potentially change the alien's resource system into a more marine-like system. (IE, one person controls the resources) Do you blame them? The marine system is HIGHLY effective, and is one of the reasons marines win consistently.
If anything, I think that alien resource dontaion should be considered a wake-up call to developers. People don't do things like this unless there is a real need for it. (I don't consider Voogru the type of person to make 'knee-jerk' decisions) Frankly, I support his efforts since it does provide for more balanced gameplay.
In other threads I have made suggestions on how to balance gameplay to assist the aliens. Should those suggestions be implemented, then I would agree that donation should no longer be allowed. However, until SOMETHING is done to balance the game more for the aliens, I think you will see MORE of these 'mod mods' springing up.
Regards,
Savant
The offending gorge has 60 seconds to morph back to a different form or they are kicked off the server. I know at least one of the server admins comes here to read threads every once in a while, if you are really interested in such a script I'm sure the author would have no problem preparing it for public use. I'll send the server owner an email to see if he would be interested in that.
I think resource donation is a sympton of a different problem though. The game is seriously unbalanced in the favour of marines, ESPECIALLY in the resource economy. What donation does is potentially change the alien's resource system into a more marine-like system. (IE, one person controls the resources) Do you blame them? The marine system is HIGHLY effective, and is one of the reasons marines win consistently.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I could name half a dozen people that would disagree with you that the game is unbalenced in favor of the marines. Myself being one of them, but not knowing me. I would simply say that on many servers Aliens win consistently. On other servers Marine victories are easy. It all comes down to who you are playing with. Often times the marine tech structure requires teamwork if they want weapons. Some newer aliens tend to be more lone wolves, and that detracts from the team. I cant tell you how beautiful it is to see 9 skulks converge on a location as soon as an attack message is expressed.
My donation system works kinda similar to the original one which was play tested, Only difference you have a choice:
1. Put resources in the hives
2. Donate resources to team mates.
I have a server-side option that allows hive resources to be global, or local (global meaning if one hive has 200 res, all resources are put one pool, if its local only the one hive has the resources.)
When resources are in the hive, any team mate can go up, hold use key down and get loaded up on resources, until the hive is out of resources or the player has maxed out his resources. When resources are stored in the hive, they "expire" at a random of 2-6 resources every 6 seconds.
As for balanced, The marines of course have the health armory, aliens have resource sharing. these are the only 2 things i have that really change the gameplay (other than nukes for admins)
Now for balance, the team wins are nearly 50/50 in a 22/24 player server (2 reserved slots)
If people want, ill post the stats starting tomorrow going till friday on which team wins and how many times.
More teamwork on marines = better chance to win
Less teamwork on marines = less chance to win
On the alien team, teamwork is not as crucial as on the marine team. While working in groups is good for aliens, they can run solo as long as they respond to calls for assistance in defending a location.
On the servers where you are seeing aliens win, the marines are not playing as a team. EVERY time I play as marine, the reason we lose is because people run off and do their own thing, and/or the commander throws away resources going for the 'cheap win' over meat and potatoes advancement.
Instead of trying to rush that second alien hive as unupgraded marines, hold your ground, build up your D and save your resources. Then when you have enough, start tossing out HA/HMG and send the marines off to clean house. This works EVERY time if done correctly.
Regards,
Savant
Turning off donation has its benefits and its flaws. Benefit, if they just want to store up and overflow their RP. That's just fine, they choose to contribute in a different manner with a longer-lasting benefit than the quick boost, both in the increased RP flow and the ability to take on a more capable form nearly as soon as it is available. Flaw... the idiot who saves up to 33RP, evolves to Lerk, and suicide-bombs after groups of Marines, over and over. A drain on the team, and in general a liability.
Now for the Gorge side of things. I can see leeching excess RP off your escort to toss up a resource tower, possibly a cluster of forward defensive chambers.. especially in the early game, where they are quite effective and the Carapace provided can give the starting aliens the boost they need. Not even mentioning the obvious RP siphon to enable the building of a second Hive ASAP. However.. for every good, team-playing Gorge, there would be the one who would leech their teammates' RPs to create unnecessary early-game OC stacks. Piles and piles of the things, easily a full Hive's worth (which doesn't take long to reach) of team resources WASTED, considering that Skulks do a much better job defending the Hive, especially in the early game, than any surrealistic number of OCs ever could.
Making resource donation (though I can't agree with expiring resources in the hive) a server-side option would be a lovely first step.
The cost of switching between skulks and gorges does needed to be taken into account with this. Setting up 4 res towers in this way would cost an extra 39 resources, almost half the amount for a hive. This is balanced against the resource towers going up earlier though. All this stuff gets horribly confusing.
I might write a program to do comparisons of different no's of players, gorge swapping, number of res nodes before first hive etc. Might be useful, and the practise would be good for me.
What I'm trying to say is that the alien resource system ends up being extremely complex, and the best first step to improving it may be to simplify it so its possible to easily change. For example, having a seperate build pool, which 50% of resources flow into, and is only accessible by gorges for building.
Instead of trying to rush that second alien hive as unupgraded marines, hold your ground, build up your D and save your resources. Then when you have enough, start tossing out HA/HMG and send the marines off to clean house. This works EVERY time if done correctly.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
.. for large enough servers.
On small servers, say 6v6 and smaller, the marines needs to capture and hold at least 5 resource nodes on average to get enough HA/HMG before the aliens gets fades. You need at least 9v9 to get the requirement down to three.
Here is a nice table showing the number of minutes it takes to techup and equip half the marine team with HA/HMG/Welder, depending on number of resnodes held. Assumes two fortified locations (base and hive), and that only a PG is built for every res node, which admittedly is only possible for larger servers. Underlined for those < 12 minutes, at which point the aliens can expect to get their earliest fades, assuming a really fast alien build.
04 39,95 28,66 22,90 19,40 17,05 15,37
05 37,07 25,58 20,02 16,75 14,59 13,06
06 34,75 23,24 17,92 14,85 12,85 <u>11,44</u>
07 32,84 21,42 16,31 13,41 <u>11,55 10,24</u>
08 31,23 19,96 15,05 12,30 <u>10,54 09,32</u>
09 29,87 18,75 14,02 <u>11,40 09,74 08,58</u>
10 28,70 17,75 13,18 <u>10,67 09,08 07,99</u>
11 27,68 16,90 12,47 <u>10,05 08,53 07,49</u>
12 26,78 16,17 <u>11,86 09,53 08,07 07,07</u>
13 25,99 15,53 <u>11,34 09,09 07,68 06,72</u>
14 25,28 14,97 <u>10,89 08,70 07,34 06,41</u>
15 24,65 14,48 <u>10,49 08,36 07,04 06,14</u>
16 24,08 14,04 <u>10,14 08,07 06,78 05,90</u>
This is a compelling idea. I like it a lot.
Mmm ... if you assume a perfect switch, ie the replacement gorge starts to evolve to gorge 15 seconds before the current gorge drops the RT, and the gorge types /kill the moment he drops the res tower. Do that three times, and you gain ...
eh, not much. About 20 seconds to hive/fade. And that requires PERFECT timing... too much work for too little gain, IMHO.
This is a compelling idea. I like it a lot.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, originally I though that was how it worked. Unfortunately, it REALLY speeds up the game as the game gets larger - at the time a small game (or any game with the current model) sees the first gorge having built the first restower (about 5 minutes into the game), a large game sees the single gorge building the 2nd hive after having built three restowers already.
Also, you get a going-gorge-to-get-fade syndrome. Currently, it isn't all that profitable to go Fade in that manner. But when the gorge is getting 80 res per minute and the skulks 5 res per minute, it will be hard to resist going gorge just to get to fade quickly.
No, I think one of the beauties of the current resource model is that the KHARAA side works very nicely, as it keeps the KHARAA side at a nice and even pace no matter the teamsize- hive up at about 11-13 minutes, fades 2-3 minutes later.
The MARINE side of the equation needs to be looked at, however.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, you get a going-gorge-to-get-fade syndrome. Currently, it isn't all that profitable to go Fade in that manner. But when the gorge is getting 80 res per minute and the skulks 5 res per minute, it will be hard to resist going gorge just to get to fade quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These people should be shot! <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think one of the beauties of the current resource model is that the KHARAA side works very nicely, as it keeps the KHARAA side at a nice and even pace no matter the teamsize- hive up at about 11-13 minutes, fades 2-3 minutes later.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think that works no matter what the team size. On larger (greater than 10) alien teams, the res draw is alot slower due to the greater number of skulks and the fact that it takes longer for them to get to full res, when the gorges really get building.
Umm, no it means the aliens tech (builld upgrade chambers/hives etc) in proportion to the speed that the marines do (different depending on team size). In the current model, aliens tech SLOWER in large games, because the resources get spread out so thinly between all the aliens. This means it is basically impossible to balance. I think I'm going to have to go into excel and illustrate this at some point.
On to point 2...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, you get a going-gorge-to-get-fade syndrome. Currently, it isn't all that profitable to go Fade in that manner. But when the gorge is getting 80 res per minute and the skulks 5 res per minute, it will be hard to resist going gorge just to get to fade quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I will repeat myself:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and is only accessible by gorges for building.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only for building ... i.e. Gorges have two seperate resource meters - an extra one for resources that can be spent on buildings.
Sorry, I should of made that more explicit in my original post.
Just one clarification: the biggest reason it was removed is because I didn't want aliens spending their time donating instead of fighting.
Umm, no it means the aliens tech (builld upgrade chambers/hives etc) in proportion to the speed that the marines do (different depending on team size). In the current model, aliens tech SLOWER in large games, because the resources get spread out so thinly between all the aliens. This means it is basically impossible to balance. I think I'm going to have to go into excel and illustrate this at some point.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You might want to take a peak at <a href='http://www.dtek.chalmers.se/~matso/resmdl.xls' target='_blank'>this sheet then</a>.
The aliens tech about as fast, no matter the teamsize. It's somewhat useful to use two gorges in larger games, but basically, going from 4v4 to 16v16 sees a change of fade time of less than 5%- about 30 seconds, according to my calculations.
Personally, I'd rather see the marines get a slowdown than the aliens get a speedup. I have some ideas about how to do that, mostly concerning thinking about how many res nodes the marines should be required to hold in order to get fade-equivalence (like, half the marines in HA/HMG/Welder by the time the aliens go fades), then tuning the marine income until you find the right spot.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
On to point 2...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, you get a going-gorge-to-get-fade syndrome. Currently, it isn't all that profitable to go Fade in that manner. But when the gorge is getting 80 res per minute and the skulks 5 res per minute, it will be hard to resist going gorge just to get to fade quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I will repeat myself:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and is only accessible by gorges for building.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only for building ... i.e. Gorges have two seperate resource meters - an extra one for resources that can be spent on buildings.
Sorry, I should of made that more explicit in my original post.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mmm... yea, that would be necessary. Thought you mean that a gorge wouldn't be able to evolve to fade directly, but tha wouldn't be workabe.
You will HATE gorges that build stupid defenses though ... every time a gorge uses resources, it will cut directly into the income for the non-gorges.
No, this is the current situation, where the resources are split equally between the aliens, with the gorges counting as 3 aliens. The entire point of what I said was that building resources would be completely.
That spreadsheet you linked me, I don't think its quite correct, I'm not sure. I did a spreadsheet just to calculate time to first resource tower, working in ticks as opposed to minutes, and guessing 6 ticks a minute it ends up quite different.
Anyway, my spreadsheet calculates that it takes an extra 7 ticks in a 16 player game that a 4 player game. I would put my spreadsheet but I don't have any space to host it.
But yeah, I see your point. Keeping the tech speed the same in all sized games would make sense. But I think the slowdown happens in big games because of the increased amount of attrition between the sides anyway.
My first post stands. Intresting idea. Needs to be worked on.
I still state that ns isnt unbalenced <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
No, this is the current situation, where the resources are split equally between the aliens, with the gorges counting as 3 aliens. The entire point of what I said was that building resources would be completely.
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Arg ... that means that on larger servers, it will take FOREVER to get to fade, while the building pool just overflows with resources.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
That spreadsheet you linked me, I don't think its quite correct, I'm not sure. I did a spreadsheet just to calculate time to first resource tower, working in ticks as opposed to minutes, and guessing 6 ticks a minute it ends up quite different.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's 10 ticks a minute. I've checked the resource numbers (got two computers and some bot plugin), so the income formula is correct, at least up to 12v12. I've measured the time needed to build various chambers and hives as well.
All in all, I'm pretty confident that the sheet is good.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Anyway, my spreadsheet calculates that it takes an extra 7 ticks in a 16 player game that a 4 player game. I would put my spreadsheet but I don't have any space to host it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The tricky point is to remeber that in almost all build plans you start building the hive AFTER all skulks are full. The 2-5 times increase in income hides most of the slower earlier game. Though if you try to build an early DC, it will come up later in a bigger game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
But yeah, I see your point. Keeping the tech speed the same in all sized games would make sense. But I think the slowdown happens in big games because of the increased amount of attrition between the sides anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, large games may have other unforeseen dynamics - like, does 6 marines vs 6 skulks have the same outcome as 2 skulks vs 2 marines? Inadvertant cooperation between aliens will be more common just because there are more aliens.
Area weapons, like the GL and the Fade acid rocket (not to mention poison clouds) are much more powerful when used en masse - instead of a single Fade needing three shots to kill a marine, three fades kill him directly. Likewise for GL's - you can run from a single GL, but three grenades exploding simultaneously will kill any lerk/skulk/gorge.
But right now, you can't really tell because those details are hidden in a tidal wave of marine resources.
This would prompte alien team play without giving them a great advantage. You could even do some alterations with this scenerio to help stop "rogue" gorges. If gorges got resources at the same rate as everyone else, or even a 2 to 1 instead of 3 to 1, it would force some to donate to the cause and keep the gorge supplied with RP. This would keep people from going gorge against the team's wishes and avoid that gorge transistion simply to get fade faster.
I have also played many games where the Marines listened to Comm, and the Comm listened to the Marines. They traded info on what was going on, where we needed to be, and so on. This lead them to capture 2 hives and win the game.
I think alot of people still think the most important thing to do as a Marine is cap nodes ASAP. It isnt. Its to get those 2 hives as soon as possible, with nodes being a secondary concern. Sure cap nodes along the way, but don't do it if you have a guy screaming for a phase gate at a hive. Just my .02c
IMHO I think res donation is a good thing, Skulks protect the Gorges ALOT more often (hey they did invest all their res in the pudgy thing). This leads to Aliens travelling in groups, working together. As for Marines, they can have nodes up equally fast if they work as a team too. It may need some tweaking, but I love the res donation.
Although you must remember, theres other changes on Voogru's to try to balance this out. Plus with the upcoming patch you have to see how it will affect things then.
One or two gorges: 2/3(66%) resources goes to the gorges building pool.
Three or four gorges: 3/4(75%)
Five, six or seven gorges: 5/6(83%)
Gorge limits:
3 or less kharaas: 3 gorges maximum
6 or less kharaas: 3 gorges maximum
9 or less kharaas: 5 gorges maximum
12 or less kharaas: 6 is maximum
16 or less kharaas: 7 is maximum
Most of those who likes to be gorges would have the change but overload could be avoided with this. Some of the numbers should probably be changed but seems pretty solid system to me.
Or maybe we could remove the gorge limits, getting too many gorges is teams own fault, its like if everyone would go lerk and hope to win the game(yeah i know, lerks rock) <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Unfortunately, marine tech speed DOES. And that's the big problem, you're right... the other problem is that Flayra really wants both teams to get and use resources at equal rates (this was frequently talked about in playtest), and I agree with him. Having two teams receiving different amounts of RPs in the same situation isn't really a good idea for an RTS; you need incomes for both teams to balance.
Honestly, I'm not sure how to proceed at this point... the income-scaling, when proportional to team size, seems to work perfectly for the kharaa in the current build - the speed with which they can build is always the same regardless of the # of players. Additionally, 2 gorges doesn't appear to be a "suicide move" (actually, it seems it may work even faster)! Very cool, IMO.
However, the marines can advance much more quickly as their team size increases, which means the current system only works on the alien side. ): Beyond that, there's the factor of making multiple gorges a viable alternative... with two gorges, aliens appear to actually be better off - what about with 3 or 4? How many should be TOO many?
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The current resource system for BOTH teams is a fixed-cost structure up until the aliens start to build their second hive. Aliens are seldom evolving (their only one-shot RP expense); they are only building structures (a long-term RP expense). Once the second hive is up, Lerks and Fades see use, and RPs are used for these one-shot expenses. Similarly, the marines ALSO have a fairly fixed-cost structure until the armory is upgraded. The commander is only building structures and researching long-term upgrades (e.g. MT, armor/weapons). There is no per-marine resource expense for things like weapons, jetpacks, or heavy armor. There is also only minimal combat, so commanders aren't spending RPs on scanners or medkits.
On the alien side, this results in an even build time regardless of team size. The building expenses do not change, but the gorge's % of the total income decreases. Thus he ends up getting about the same amount of RPs regardless of team size, and alien tech speed remains unchanged.
In contrast, the marine team can tech MUCH faster in large games. This is because the commander always gets the same % of RPs (that is, all of them), and his necessary expenses don't change much either - in fact, his costs might even drop, since he has more marines to take the place of turrets he might build in a smaller game. Meanwhile he's getting more RPs than in a smaller game. The result? Faster tech.
Ok, so what are our current goals?
1) Alter the resource structure so that marines tech at the same rate, regardless of team size. This can be accomplished in one of two ways:
-a- Alter the system so that the commander receives approximately the same amount of resources, regardless of team size. One problem with this is that a fixed income leaves the marines high and dry once the commander needs to start buying advanced weapons and prototype tech for his marines.
-b- Alter the marines expense model to introduce an early-game RP sink. The catch is that this sink *must vary with team size* - the larger the team, the bigger the sink. It also needs to only affect the early game, as it would otherwise cripple marines once the cost of advanced droppable tech came into the picture.
2) Alter the Kharaa resource distribution system to (a) allow multiple gorges while (b) maintaining the current (constant) tech timetable.
3) Achieve (1) and (2) so that the aliens and marines receive RPs according to the same rate formula.
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It seems to me that (2) may not be a huge issue, if 2 gorges actually can reach the 2-hive stage in approx the same amount of time as one. As for (1), I think option -b- may be the best choice in this scenario, as it also satisfies (3). So a few quick ideas for early-game marine RP sinks:
1) Weaponry. Slightly lower the effectiveness of the marines' default weaponry, and create a new weapon to join the shotgun as an early-game droppable. It should be fairly low-cost - no more than 10 RPs - and perhaps be slightly more effective than the LMG currently is. The goal would be that the commander will drop these not constantly, but on a fairly regular basis, thus using RPs and slowing his tech down. Since the cost is smaller for a small team, it will have a larger effect on large games. CONS: commander must micromanage his grunts with weapons after each spawn; marines get frustrated since their default guns can't even easily dispatch 1-hive aliens.
2) IP Spawn Cost. Each respawn costs a small amount of RPs - as much as is needed for balance. At the midgame, an upgrade would become available, likely at the CC or at one/each IP, to upgrade to an "Advanced IP" that would allow free respawns. I would be inclined to include this with a "tier-2 upgrade" - upgrading the CC itself. An upgraded CC would allow upgrades to Advanced Armory and Advanced IP, as well as construction of the Prototype Lab and possibly Arms Lab. CONS: Potentially frustrating for a commander whose troops die frequently; exploitable by a suiciding marine; a comm could tech-rush to free spawns (fix: prerequisite buildings - tfact, armory, and observ - and/or high cost).
I love the donation system. Another thing is, you lose res when you die, so having more nodes does affect you more. Less nodes means every death your farther from being a Fade, so either you go out and defend those nodes or you camp the base for fear of losing them, and lose the game.