Some words about the Power increase of NS2

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  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,447 Advanced user
    edited August 2018
    Nordic wrote: »
    Please for the love of god don't do this. Contamination is so dumb. It is such a basic and lame mechanic. It has a purpose, and it does it, but the same purpose could be done another way. Aliens can't turtle as well as marines can because marines can get arcs. Arcs already serve this role. So do exo and jetpacks to an extent, but they are not as strong.

    I disagree, I think this idea is very interesting. It sounds like marines would have to physically get there, build the bomb (like any other blueprint), then defend it for a bit. That sounds pretty engaging to me. The issue with this is that if marines can pull that off, they have taken the hiveroom already, anyway. The problem is getting marines to commit to that hive, not killing it. It's generally a problem to get marines to commit to anything, because they seem to have far more to lose than aliens due to the way powernodes and phase gates work. Marine infrastructure is fickle and that's why they usually play so carefully.
    Additionally, losing pres always sucks. I used to not buy shotguns until jps were up because I knew that I'd lose it within a minute and likely see 20 res go down the drain. Nowadays I buy one when they are researched initially, and then another one when jps come up. That's two shotguns per game, if we even make it to jetpacks, so I still play pretty careful with them.

    I like Nordic's idea of infinite progressive weapon upgrades. I don't think they'd even have to increase in cost. Just make each cost 40 res and you've got a nice res-sink. I'd tie those to holding at least two CCs and having all other upgrades first, though.
    Something similar could be done with biomass.
    Other ideas would be research that significantly increases ARC range (like, doubling it) or just pumping the winning team full of res.

    I agree that the super late game is not fun currently, and that it's the biggest flaw of the current balance. I'm not sure if this is the root of the problem, though. I think the root of the problem might be that there's little incentive to win the game before being completely teched up, and that it's actually pretty hard to do, too.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
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  • OsmiumOsmium Richmond VA Join Date: 2016-08-06 Member: 221005Members Posts: 5 Fully active user
    Frozen wrote: »
    As much as I hate to say this, you can't just give fades structure damage because the meta instantly becomes everyone go fade and kill all the rts together.

    If it were a 3rd hive thing more like stab but less energy ridiculous, this could work.

    Yeah that is a fair point. Perhaps you could slightly reduce the amount of armor phase gates while increasing base HP to overall give the same eHP but allow fades to be able to help grinding gates, but also make it so they can't solo gates either. A stab rework I think is also a very good idea, I'm just not sure what they would look like.
    You probably know me as Auto in NS2
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 804 Advanced user
    Vetinari wrote: »
    So I was going to make a joke about putting acid rocket on biomass 8/9... but maybe that could actually work?

    NAAAAYYY.
    ALIENS ARE MELEE, MARINES ARE THE RANGED HURR-DURR! x)
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • StupidStupid Join Date: 2018-06-03 Member: 241104Members Posts: 20 Advanced user
    Sorry, I only read a few comments in...
    but, I had to input...

    So, If you (someone, uwe, or who cares) wants a game where tatical moves cannot be made after power has been gained....
    then why would anyone decide that gorge rushing was too simple and needed any nerfing...

    ...Just as sneaky phase gate is the marines way.

    Somewhere, it seems certain crybabies cried about how some average players were winning games and hurting their fragile scores.

    This rant is over.
    .trixX.The_Welsh_Wizardskav2MoFo1
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 804 Advanced user
    Well, marines have a much harder time getting a sneaky gate than aliens getting a sneaky tunnel.
    But yeah, the noise made by people about the tunnel rushes seems unfounded. There are numerous tell-signs when a rush is coming, if your com/leader is unable to competently assess the risk of a rush at any given moment, that's a user-error...
    A scan costs 3 tres, all you have to do is not to forget to ping your base entrances every minute. It's that simple to counter.
    This game has more mind-game elements to it than aiming skill, i;ve seen teams loose with 4k players because the rest of the team was unorganized.
    Narrowing down your options (ekkhmm, looking at you HP bars) just kills the vibe of the game
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • skav2skav2 Join Date: 2007-05-28 Member: 61037Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 172 Advanced user
    Agreed on the HP bars. Those gotta go.


    Gorge tunnels did need a nerf because for a while thats all people would use to win. Yes, it does come down to marine commanders being competent to realize theres a tunnel however many aliens would ONLY do tunnel rushes the WHOLE game. Its better now since it still works however and can win the game for you but now people dont ALWAYS do it.

    Nordics idea on most upgrades past w3 and aliens increase in upgrade effectiveness is a neat idea. The only problem I have is that marines wouldnt lose these upgrades unless they lost their arms lab which doesnt cost much to make or build.

    Aliens on the other hand have a huge investment to create a hive and build it. 40 tres, a gorge and maybe a drifter and 1-2 minutes to build. or with just a drifter - a long time. My suggestion to fix this is to bring back multiple chair upgrade unlocking. Like how exos required a 2nd chair to be bought/ researched. It only makes sense that a place called a Tech Point would allow marines to find and build new tech. I believe another barrier should be in place because rushing w4+ would happen, so something like an AA and a proto being a requirement would help from this becoming meta.


    Make it fairly expensive too like 60 res for the next upgrade because by that point marines already should have most of their upgrades my now. And if by this point either team didnt win then either the other team failed to hit res or the game has gone on wayyyy too long.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,676 Advanced user
    skav2 wrote: »
    Nordics idea on most upgrades past w3 and aliens increase in upgrade effectiveness is a neat idea. The only problem I have is that marines wouldnt lose these upgrades unless they lost their arms lab which doesnt cost much to make or build.

    I actually think those are not that good of idea's, or at least not thought out enough. I mentioned them as an example of mechanics that would increase the the slippery slope and prevent lame duck scenarios.

    It is an unpopular opinion, but I think lame duck scenarios are one of the worst things in NS2. A lame duck scenario is when one team has won, but the game isn't over yet. Slippery slope mechanics make the winning team win faster. Increasing the slippery slope would make less drawn out games, less long games, less stalemates, and less turtling.

    I would like to increase the slippery slope in the end game specifically by making late game abilities far stronger. Late game abilities should be inherently unbalanced so that the team that achieves them wins the game very soon after they obtain these abilities. Infinite upgrades and increased upgrade effectiveness would do this passively and for the whole team, rather than letting the one hero fade dominate the whole other team with his OP late game ability.

    I think this would be a net benefit, but my opinion is not widespread. The playerbase seems to have a last stand mentality where they refuse to concede if a comeback is even slightly possible which compounds issues already inherent in the game design. Players seem to relish the potential to win and enjoy the thrill when it sometimes happens, despite the low quality gameplay of lame duck scenarios. The general consensus appears to be that potential to win > better gameplay. But this is only my observations and opinions even if unpopular.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • StupidStupid Join Date: 2018-06-03 Member: 241104Members Posts: 20 Advanced user
    edited August 2018
    If the marines or aliens aren't winning late game, then the teamwork probably wasn't there to begin with... so it should be anyone's game.
    FrozenNordic.trixX.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,676 Advanced user
    edited August 2018
    Earlier I had mentioned that lower skill players seem to not like conceding, and enjoy lame duck scenarios. Just a few minutes ago I played a game where we conceded after aliens got onos. The onos killed everything but our naturals at the 15 minute mark all at once. We went from tech points and a phasegate in the aliens naturals to nothing in about a minute. Four different low skill people were complaining and calling us pussies for conceding a game that they say we could have come back from. They said that we should fight to the command chair is dead.
    Post edited by Nordic on
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Earlier I had mentioned that lower skill players seem to not like conceding, and enjoy lame duck scenarios. The just a few minutes ago I played a game where we conceded after aliens got onos and killed everything our naturals at the 15 minute mark. 4 different low skill people were complaining and calling us pussies for conceding a game that we could have come back from. They said that we should fight to the command chair is dead.

    That's the downside of a small active playercount with such a wide skill gap, we may have seen the outcome played out hundreds of times but the new or lesser skilled haven't. Even if they don't believe they'll win they still might not have gotten bored of waiting for the spawncamp to end and conceding robs them of them of that experience.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,676 Advanced user
    That's the downside of a small active playercount with such a wide skill gap, we may have seen the outcome played out hundreds of times but the new or lesser skilled haven't. Even if they don't believe they'll win they still might not have gotten bored of waiting for the spawncamp to end and conceding robs them of them of that experience.
    I forgot to mention. I checked the hours they had recorded. All of them had 500-750 hours recorded by hive. All were skill tier 1 or 2. All of them have played at least 1500 rounds of NS2. It isn't like these specific players haven't seen the outcome played out hundreds of times.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,447 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    That's the downside of a small active playercount with such a wide skill gap, we may have seen the outcome played out hundreds of times but the new or lesser skilled haven't. Even if they don't believe they'll win they still might not have gotten bored of waiting for the spawncamp to end and conceding robs them of them of that experience.
    I forgot to mention. I checked the hours they had recorded. All of them had 500-750 hours recorded by hive. All were skill tier 1 or 2. All of them have played at least 1500 rounds of NS2. It isn't like these specific players haven't seen the outcome played out hundreds of times.

    To be fair - looking back at myself at 500 hours I was a total noob back then. But yeah, that's extreme.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
    Nordicskav2
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 804 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Four different low skill people were complaining and calling us pussies for conceding a game that they say we could have come back from. They said that we should fight to the command chair is dead.
    That's the downside of a small active playercount with such a wide skill gap, we may have seen the outcome played out hundreds of times but the new or lesser skilled haven't.

    They do have a point though.... yes, 95% of the times the paper form holds, and the team in a better position wins.
    BUT the rest of the 5% is the real soul of NS2, when marines get their shit together and JP rush 2 hives in 1 minute (or trap liferforms, or successfully recap RTs, whatever). I've also seen those, and was way more thrilled than just a regular round.
    Yes, there are times when even I say it's pointless, but just because you seem to be losing does not mean you can't come around.
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • GrissiGrissi Join Date: 2003-08-28 Member: 20314Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 487 Advanced user
    Curve should not be even, you want games to snowball to an quick end if one team gets a huge advantage (prevents player being stuck in a losing game for to long - removing fun).

    Bigger problem is making a comeback in ns2 is a very steep and time consuming thing to do, this is connected to how the dual resource system works. (1 Big play is not enough, you need constant plays to get the rewards). NS2 needs to make players more dependent on investment that can be lost, passive upgrades are way to cost effective. For example marines never need to go to tier 2, they can stay on 1.5 tier with lvl 2-2 upgrades and few shotguns. Even without shotguns passive upgraded LMG can deal with the lifeforms(alien investments) just fine with upgrades. Since You can't lose the passive upgrades making a comeback when you are behind really really hard. If passive upgrades had less value then you could make a big comeback by winning a single fight. This is one thing NS1 did correct, LMG could not really deal with Fades and you were more dependent on equipment. (Even though NS1 got the combat better I think NS2 overall is a better game).

    There are simple solution this that can be implemented but it would require some reworks, few were used in the ns2 world championship (competitive mod) but that version stopped development.

    The ideas to balance out the value of tier 1, tier 2 and tier 3 abilities/equipment never got through because people were afraid of making changes at the time.
    There is no competitive balance or casual players balance. The game is either balanced or not balanced.
    It's the same game after all.


    NS1 competitive play


    All my posts are my personal view, I do not speak for a community or anyone else.
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 804 Advanced user
    Grissi wrote: »
    There are simple solution this that can be implemented but it would require some reworks, few were used in the ns2 world championship (competitive mod) but that version stopped development.

    The ideas to balance out the value of tier 1, tier 2 and tier 3 abilities/equipment never got through because people were afraid of making changes at the time.

    What would be a counter option for aliens against passive ups? Im genuinely interested!
    Btw, if you consider alien upgrade and ability paths, one could argue they have the same advantage.
    Skulks even on 2 hives can be devastating when working together properly, and they dont lose pres either.
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 1,542 Advanced user
    Grissi wrote: »
    Curve should not be even, you want games to snowball to an quick end if one team gets a huge advantage (prevents player being stuck in a losing game for to long - removing fun).

    Bigger problem is making a comeback in ns2 is a very steep and time consuming thing to do, this is connected to how the dual resource system works. (1 Big play is not enough, you need constant plays to get the rewards). NS2 needs to make players more dependent on investment that can be lost, passive upgrades are way to cost effective. For example marines never need to go to tier 2, they can stay on 1.5 tier with lvl 2-2 upgrades and few shotguns. Even without shotguns passive upgraded LMG can deal with the lifeforms(alien investments) just fine with upgrades. Since You can't lose the passive upgrades making a comeback when you are behind really really hard. If passive upgrades had less value then you could make a big comeback by winning a single fight. This is one thing NS1 did correct, LMG could not really deal with Fades and you were more dependent on equipment. (Even though NS1 got the combat better I think NS2 overall is a better game).

    There are simple solution this that can be implemented but it would require some reworks, few were used in the ns2 world championship (competitive mod) but that version stopped development.

    The ideas to balance out the value of tier 1, tier 2 and tier 3 abilities/equipment never got through because people were afraid of making changes at the time.
    .trixX. wrote: »
    What would be a counter option for aliens against passive ups? Im genuinely interested!
    Btw, if you consider alien upgrade and ability paths, one could argue they have the same advantage.
    Skulks even on 2 hives can be devastating when working together properly, and they dont lose pres either.
    You both talk about the same thing but from a different point of view.
    While i totally disagree with the OP, i jump in just for this detail.

    Grissi have a competitive point of view. Yes a comeback is quite hard if you lost too much and your team is behind (Res flow -> ups/lifeforms). Even with a perfect teamwork and success in every action, you just feel it's way too long. And that's not for nothing. The enemy knows your possible moves and will try to counter that by anticipating. When the skill is high and everybody fight to the death for every inches, it can end up in long and exhausting games.

    trixX talks in a more general sense. Let's assume the "pub" is the dominant face. Yes you can see come-backs in those 5% and it's quite enjoyable. But the landscape is quite different. Lack of teamwork (or people just here to mess around). Communication is not as effective. There is the language barrier that is visible. Depending on the country, English as a second language isn't the first choice. Skill range... from 0 to 4k...

    For what i could witness those comebacks just happen because of a sudden teamwork improvement. Like planets aligning all together.


    What would be more interesting is : why it goes like that in the first place ?
    The more "strategic options" are removed the more people feel the need to talk about the "curves" (power, ups, early/middle/late game, etc.). I'm gonna say it : "Silence". There i said it.

    I was keen on the Exo locked at 2 bases. The marine had to check their stuff. But somebody said it was not good for player retention. Well... now... here we are.

    The more the Marine tech tree have been dumbed down the more the Kharaas was forced to use "last resort" solutions (poker face -> tunnel) as they got nerfed in a ricochet fashion. The last update didn't change the play style as it's more CounterStrike in space style than proper strategy.

    On public servers : More choke points and blockade. Big fights but strategically worthless compared to even a "hit and run" (or diversion) properly done (teamwork).

    Kharaa still use tunnels rushes and most of the low/average Marine complaints about it as they are not used to look behind. Why ? Because the victory doesn't depend on it for them.

    It takes time to make a proper NS2 player. Even if this player won't be able to "talk english gud", he (or she) will make the proper moves and choices (like opening the map at least). I prefer that.

    Right now the cannon fodder stays cannon fodder because there is no incentive to do otherwise. Once they have incentives they will behave differently instead of running everywhere (if not turtling) waiting for ExoPainTrain.

    I will always vote for both teams ability to "build" a strategy and get in a big fight in the middle game (So the early game is less "i rush/stomp your a$$ and win"). Sadly this vote option never was on the table.


    ChubbChubbs ???

    Reach me on NS2 forums in :
    Map: Outer Rim Ark and Outer Rim Ark Edge
    .trixX.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 762 Advanced user
    That's a very good point @Grissi . And I heard it often that people want marine passive upgrades gone. It is better on aliens, because Biomass HP can be reduced by killing hives, upgrades can be killed by killing upgrade chambers. Lifeforms can be killed. Marines keep their W/A upgrades forever. It would be cool if instead of armor upgrades, there would be different tier PRes purchasable armor gear. Not only would it be a lot more fun, you could also add to them more attributes than just armor values. And aliens could see their armor visually. And they get lost if a marine dies.
    .trixX.
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 804 Advanced user
    @UncleCrunch you're totally correct about our approaches, i play on pub 99% of times (maybe a few gather rounds every few months).
    comp is much-much more on the edge, and harder to do a comeback, simply because the opponents are taking it seriously.
    pub gives room for a lot more error, so a lot more chance for comebacks.
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • Shifter6Shifter6 Join Date: 2017-01-11 Member: 226556Members Posts: 42 Advanced user
    Agree about fades, thank you Nordic and frozen for defending that. I can also argue that the game has a slippery slope, but that it is much more harsh on marines than on aliens in the late game. Why else would marines hesitate at 9/10 hive rushes while aliens rush marine bases constantly? I cannot argue that marines should be buffed to be as expendable as skulks (for obvious gameplay reasons) but there should be some tweaking to prevent marine losses that come out of hour+ games that are lost by top players quitting/having to piss or by the aliens having 10 onos because that's what the game has become. It is silly and unfair to marine players.

    @Nordic
    Shifter6 wrote: »
    I like seige's approach of having arcs hitting your hive, where the alien team has immense pressure to end the game before it is ended for them. I don't see why infinite (or simply very long) range arc units behind a ludicrous tech barrier can't be that solution (unlocks only after all other tech is complete and costs 150 res, or even requires a certain number of tech points). Keep this game aggressive. Just because alien teams don't call it turtling does not mean that isn't what's happening. I don't want a nuke to just end the game, but it seems unfair to give one team an often game ending upgrade and not the other.

    I don't disagree that marine contam would be stupid. That being said, there should be some threshold that says "marines have won the game but can't kill the PvE infested 2 hives that aliens have left". Once this threshold is reached, and I strongly think this should be tied to map control instead of res for the reasons and concerns you described, there should be a way for marines to build towards a game ending, contam like phenomenon. Why do marines have to push aliens back but not the other way around? Aliens have no incentive or fear of playing hyper-defense. In some senses, the very late game encourages it while single skulks and gorges make tunnels and hit backres while not making any large dents to the marine front line...while the rest of the team waits for marines to make a mistake in the 30+ minutes of disgusting stall.

    I have also thought of another potential way to balance the discussion and create an endgame way for marines to clinch a win. Keep in mind this is a brain storming idea to make for a balanced way to end games when they should be over, and not a moment before:
    -A 40 res structure must be built in every res-node containing room. These structures ONLY unlock when marines have chairs on all but 2 tech points, and all other research has been completed. It has health roughly equal to a single RT. Once every structure is built, an endgame structure/unit (think either an arc or a sentry or something) can be built. This must be built in/near a hive room. Once it is built, it arms, and fires, and kills a hive. This would require almost 20 minutes of holding EVERY non-hive room on the map. I think we can agree that this would suffice as giving aliens plenty of ways to come back while also giving marines the out they deserve. It could even be nerfed so that the end-game weapon fails to work if a single one of these structures are destroyed. This means that the marines have every reason to try everything else they can think of before resorting to this method of ending the game, which is how it should be.


    The issue I am talking so passionately about is obviously very map biased, as some maps are more or less marine friendly for hive rushes. What makes me irritated is that the obvious solution to defensive losses, the use of arcs to kill a hive, is not effective on many maps. This means that something fundamental needs to be changed to make gameplay fun and tactical, and sometimes even stalemate-like, without making a massive stall war. I am open to other suggestions, but the "leave the game as is" approach is beginning to frustrate me. We need to make games last long enough to be fun and difficult, while also not granting one team an unfair incentive to play hyper-defense until opponents simply don't want to continue.

  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 1,542 Advanced user
    edited August 2018
    Shifter6 wrote: »
    I don't disagree that marine contam would be stupid. That being said, there should be some threshold that says "marines have won the game but can't kill the PvE infested 2 hives that aliens have left". Once this threshold is reached, and I strongly think this should be tied to map control instead of res for the reasons and concerns you described, there should be a way for marines to build towards a game ending, contam like phenomenon. Why do marines have to push aliens back but not the other way around? Aliens have no incentive or fear of playing hyper-defense.
    Are you sure about that ? If you're referring to the whole game I disagree.
    -Early game is granted for Marine (unless they're totally inapt to do anything).
    -Middle game is the fight in which the game is mostly decided.
    -The late game is the finish with one or two last resort action (ninja PG/tunnel). That is why "mostly decided".

    If you're referring to the late game only I think you failed to see one thing or two.
    The marine do not push back. It's just that the game face changed and the Kharaas finally have some space to breath. The Kharaas are pushing back in the first place. I think that even the middle game isn't a 50/50 chance of success. I still would give the advantage to the Marines as the Kharras have to invest in upgrades fast enough during that time.

    If the Marine team fails to be a big enough threat that will make Kharaas focus only on that (and be contained); they will loose territory, res and finally the game. Up to the Marine players to be "on point" and check their stuff. The average player does not.

    I mean by that: if you command from time to time and win as Kharaas. Most of the time you cannot finish all the upgrades before your team enters the Marine base. And it's not because your teammate are utterly superior. More like the Marine f****d up again. Especially when they buy a lot of GLs.

    Shifter6 wrote: »
    In some senses, the very late game encourages it while single skulks and gorges make tunnels and hit backres while not making any large dents to the marine front line...while the rest of the team waits for marines to make a mistake in the 30+ minutes of disgusting stall.
    Hitting resources is the point actually. This is a Res Games... like any other RTS. Upgrades comes from 'money', money comes from Harvesters/Extractors. The upgrade are the way to ensure victory as it helps destroying big targets. The bigger the res flow the more you can invest. In the end NS2 isn't about killing the enemy but about time. No money, no investment, no ups. Simple as that.

    Ask a commander. He doesn't care for anything more than resource towers.
    Shifter6 wrote: »
    I have also thought of another potential way to balance the discussion and create an endgame way for marines to clinch a win. Keep in mind this is a brain storming idea to make for a balanced way to end games when they should be over, and not a moment before:
    -A 40 res structure must be built in every res-node containing room. These structures ONLY unlock when marines have chairs on all but 2 tech points, and all other research has been completed. It has health roughly equal to a single RT. Once every structure is built, an endgame structure/unit (think either an arc or a sentry or something) can be built. This must be built in/near a hive room. Once it is built, it arms, and fires, and kills a hive. This would require almost 20 minutes of holding EVERY non-hive room on the map. I think we can agree that this would suffice as giving aliens plenty of ways to come back while also giving marines the out they deserve. It could even be nerfed so that the end-game weapon fails to work if a single one of these structures are destroyed. This means that the marines have every reason to try everything else they can think of before resorting to this method of ending the game, which is how it should be.


    The issue I am talking so passionately about is obviously very map biased, as some maps are more or less marine friendly for hive rushes. What makes me irritated is that the obvious solution to defensive losses, the use of arcs to kill a hive, is not effective on many maps. This means that something fundamental needs to be changed to make gameplay fun and tactical, and sometimes even stalemate-like, without making a massive stall war. I am open to other suggestions, but the "leave the game as is" approach is beginning to frustrate me. We need to make games last long enough to be fun and difficult, while also not granting one team an unfair incentive to play hyper-defense until opponents simply don't want to continue.
    Hmmm. I think that even if the Tech Tree is quite less complex on the Marine side, they still have all they need to destroy anything in their path. It's just the usual NS2 player that lack the proper set of skills to do so. NS2 isn't counter Strike in space. But many players behave like it is. Afraid to rush a hive and loose a gun. Wanking around with GLs and rendering themselves totally useless. and so on. This happens mostly on pub servers. Anyone heard: "Goo iiiiiinnnnn!!!!!" ?? if not at every game, it must be close to it.

    On the comeback topic it's more like the marine are late because they couldn't protect their Extractors. So Exo-Suits or JPs come late and when they can buy it they are already turtling. BUT they always fail to organize properly in order to come back. Even if it's hard and they will loose some in the process, they lack the proper coordination to do so. I've seen 10 Exos get ripped off by 2 gorges...

    It's a totally different picture when the skill gets higher. 4 shoties' in a hive and they play hopscotch inside while the hive is popping like a soap bubble...

    The problem never been about "something to comeback", but more like teamwork and behavior.
    Post edited by UncleCrunch on
    ChubbChubbs ???

    Reach me on NS2 forums in :
    Map: Outer Rim Ark and Outer Rim Ark Edge
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,181 admin
    And I heard it often that people want marine passive upgrades gone. It is better on aliens, because Biomass HP can be reduced by killing hives, upgrades can be killed by killing upgrade chambers.
    It's almost as if having tech not tied to map control has byproducts and downsides.......

    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • ScatterScatter Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 629 Advanced user
    Passive upgrades I've been complaining about for years. Glad to see some people finally agree.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 762 Advanced user
    IronHorse wrote: »
    And I heard it often that people want marine passive upgrades gone. It is better on aliens, because Biomass HP can be reduced by killing hives, upgrades can be killed by killing upgrade chambers.
    It's almost as if having tech not tied to map control has byproducts and downsides.......

    Sure it has, but the advantages outweight the downsides. Having marine tech tied to CCs would move gameplay in the wrong direction.
    UncleCrunch
  • TomTomTomTom Canada Join Date: 2013-04-03 Member: 184622Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 13 Fully active user
    We can all agree that something needs to be changed about the ultra late game. We have contaminate as the hard timer, but it’s a drag to play against and doesn’t destabilize the end game enough to reliably end it. But we NEED something like it, something that tips the balance conclusively in favour of the first team to reach the topmost tip of the tech tree, yet it should be something that is fun to play against and makes the endgame unique and something to be looked forward to, but also something that won’t make the other team say “oh look, they have X. Concede.”

    And so, if only for our amusement, I would like to propose the following: Upon reaching Biomass 12 (there could be other requirements as well), the alien commander can research a tech that allows him evolve an already upgraded hive into a mobile unit which he controls in first person. It’s purpose would be to add the decisive firepower on the field needed to break through a stalemate, in an organic way that completely shakes up the endgame but is also fun to play against. It would detach itself from it’s tech point but still count as a third hive and retain all its biomass, but the commander is locked inside and out of the commander controls unless he redeploys it at a tech point or it is destroyed which would have all the normal repercussions of losing a hive. This point is what incentivizes the marine team to fight it, rather than conceding at the sight of it, because if they kill it, the aliens lose all their top tier abilities. It adds a whole new level of risk/reward on the alien commander’s part, deciding whether to bet so much on a push that could win them the game or give the marines a chance to come back if if it goes south.
    Design would need some thought, but I see no reason why a game ender unit like this could not be balanced to fit it into a “commander’s gamble” role.

    Some ideas:
    It’s abilities would vary slightly depending on what kind of hive the unit evolved from. It’s appearance and mode of traversal as well. For example, one evolved from a crag hive might resemble a giant slug, slow moving and slow to turn, but with powerful short/mid range attacks and a broad passive shield that blocks all frontal damage and which is sloped to allow retreating aliens to climb over without getting blocked in. And let’s throw some ultra crag healing in there cause why not. It’s health pool would consist mainly of armour, and since it is slow moving, gas grenades would be a hard counter. Maybe also railgun exos, since they can pierce the frontal carapace, depending on how it needs to be balanced.
    The shift version could look like a roly poly or pill bug. It would roll into a giant ball and charge in a straight line, knocking away marines and doing heavy damage to structures and exos it collides with. Uncurled, it would be much slower but still faster than the crag version. Short range attack is a venomous bite that heals the unit slightly, while it can also fire globs of bile that eat away armour and pin marines in place for a few seconds. But here’s the fun part: if the marine has no armour, the close range attack consumes the marine and heals the unit for a large portion of health! Counters are stun grenades which disrupt its rolling charge, and flamethrowers to burn up its bile projectiles which it depends on to melt off armour and close the distance to its prey. And don’t forget WELDERS! It can’t eat your teammate if he’s full armour!
    And thirdly, the shade variety: how about a floating manta ray type, but permanently cloaked when viewed from below and able to cling to walls. It passively gives off dust that cloaks any aliens that come in contact with it, even if they are in full motion. Of course it can make hallucinations as well but these explode into inking effects when shot. It can also swoop up one marine at a time, injecting him with a specialized strain of the bacterium that turns him into a kind of xenocide marine. He can still move for a short while after being dropped, until he explodes and does heavy bile type damage to structures and marine armour. You can tell this type is all about the memes, really. Counters are flamethrowers against the cloak dust (and the radicalized marines?) and stun grenades which briefly knock it out of the air.
    All three types should have a week spot which the player/commander should be mindful of:
    Crag: behind the carapace.
    Shift: head, which is tiny compared to its body, and doesn’t stick out.
    Shade: on its back.
    Furthermore, all three have passive buffing affects to aliens in their vicinity, which can be designed to according to balance needs, keeping in mind that though they are game ender units, taking them down must be a realistic possibility. Furthermore, they are designed to be the ultimate support unit, which is to say that they only shine when supported by the team.

    And there you have it! I hope this post was as fun to read as it was to write! Of course I realize that the implementation of something this scale is completely unfeasible. But is something like this not what we are looking for? Something that makes the endgame something to be looked forward to, that gives the leading team the tools to crush the other, but also presents an opportunity for the underdogs to make a comeback? They go into a turtle with the will to fight, while the leading team has the tools to break that same turtle. This schema isn’t limited to aliens either. I just used them because the ideas sounded cooler to me. You could design something comparable with marines too, though the role of marine commander is too crucial to be messed with (Unless he could stear his unit in third person?). You just need to impose a penalty comparable to aliens losing a hive with full biomass if the unit is lost.

    From what I’ve gathered on this forum, I think the only way to fix the end game is for UWE to add the content that the end game needs. It needn’t be what I layed out here, that was more for fun than anything. But what I think we are experiencing is an absence of content that we are playing around. No amount of rebalancing is going to fix this. The endgame in its current form is nothing but a mid game on steroids. Sure, between jet packs and oni, things get much more intense and fast paced, but the objectives stay the same. All that changes is the rate at which you get exhausted, which is what the super long games come down to: which team gets burnt out first.
    I know I must sound like a mad man, but I ask you to consider that we may be playing around missing content, simply unaware because (U)we don’t know what that content should be or might look like. A blatant placeholder like contamination is as good an indication as any.

    Cheers

    (Typed on phone)
    Can't shoot? Blame the commander.
  • Deck_Deck_ Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Members Posts: 298 Advanced user
    edited January 21
    This is an important topic so let's keep the discussion going.

    The above points are interesting, but I would rather go a more simple / less changes direction. The way I look at NS2 in a typical 12v12 round is: the mid to late game is as good as it's ever been since I started playing ns2. It's fun, and that's why the game is holding on pretty good at the moment. If it wasn't fun, that wouldn't be the case.

    So that is why I'm proposing no major changes in that part of the game. It took this long to get there, you make major changes and risk screwing it all up. 2 things I think I would tweak when you think about the big picture of the average pub round.

    1) nerf early game marines
    2) give aliens additional abilities on biomass 8 and make biomass 8 easier to get on 2 hives so rounds end faster.

    Explanation of number 1 - Most pubbers seem to enjoy playing aliens more. i think part of it is the game gives you something no other game gives you by playing aliens. Also, marines is really difficult. I think the most crushing ns2 rounds is when aliens lose in the first few minutes. They can't get a good tunnel up, they are locked in their hive already and it's GG. It's not fun for anyone, and those games still happen a little too much imo. UWE should think about a way to nerf really good marine players early game but not nerf average marine players. Again, I don't want to nerf the mid to late game marines from what it is now. let's not ruin the game here, but nerfing early game marines in first few minutes should be looked at.

    Explanation of number 2 - the mid to late game is great right now. But it comes at a cost. You do get those 40 min+ rounds that are fun, but a lot of the time exhausting. Ns2 requires a ton of effort on the field to play 40 min+ straight to get the win. So you may end up not playing after a long round because of the time and effort involved. I think this should be a really rare scenario. While sometimes fun, I don't think long rounds are going to make ns2 as addicting/wide appeal as it can be. The stomp on biomass 8 with 2 hives has helped this issue. But I think it needs to go a little more in that direction. I would give an ability to skulks or fades on biomass 8 that allows them to kill structures easier. And make biomass 8 faster to get on 2 hives. That would put the marines more in a...we better start moving mode.

    The worst part about ns gameplay is when marines are sitting on gates and you feel like it's the same round for 30 minutes. We have all seen those rounds. Why not try to fix it?

    Let me know your thoughts.
  • ageofempires115ageofempires115 Join Date: 2019-02-04 Member: 250382Members Posts: 2 Fully active user
    edited February 5
    I think there's too much power. I think the time-to-kill is much too fast. Engagements are over in a fraction of a second. Marines can churn explosives, Aliens can use abilities like the energy bar doesn't exist, simply getting a jet-pack multiplies a Marines potential by 10 fold. And tell me, what's the point behind having weapon and armor upgrades when the baseline engagement is a bunch of glass cannons at all stages of the game? The only exception is Fade and Onos to a degree, and even then they have their own abilities that they can spam willy nilly, jumping around or smashing the ground.

    Just because "weapons" or "items" or "abilities" deal damage in a game, doesn't mean have impact on the players skill ceiling progression. And there's nothing really to hold onto here at the moment. Everything is so simple, when you play as a Marine you have to do this. When you play as an Alien you have to do this. It feels like the game is holding my hand the whole time. And then when you play commander it throws you to the damn wolves. There's so little consistency in that regard.

    I think the Infantry combat in this game would be better if they toned down the damage values, gave Marines a more reliable movement system, and gave the Aliens the option to take Ranged weapons built to the niche of the form.

    I think it would be much more fun if it took longer for people to kill one another, and if everyone was running and jumping around shooting and bashing. I feel as if it would increase the skill ceiling and multiply the variety of engagements seen on the battlefield and extend the length of them, putting greater emphasis on a players conservation of ammo and abilities and sustained combat skills. Marines already experience this to a degree, being that they have to reload, but their damage output and attack speed are just ridiculous, and exists only to make up for the fact that Aliens have ridiculously high base damage attacks with spammable abilities on a massive energy bar.

    I'm not sold on the Base Power or the Power Creep right now.



    Post edited by ageofempires115 on
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