Marine Jet Pack improvement please...

XaleXale Paris / FranceMembers Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24767Posts: 155 Advanced user
Hey,

Been playing since ~1 month now, and I go to say that Jet Pack has been nerfed way too high !!


Just a small jump/fly and you are already out of gas !!, and it also make a tons of time to recover...!!


Jet pack used to be very efficient, now they are sticked to the ground !! And very slow !!


I use to be killed by lerks poison and skilled skulk. Now I fell like a normal marine that can make high jump...


Aliens have LOTS of upgrade and they are very strong in late game... this could change a lot... !


What you people think ?
Old NS1.0 player (JP/HMG for the win)
Mapper (de_mangashop for CS1.6 / CSS / CS:GO )
ns2_hera2018 : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155092/ns2-hera2018
ns2_nancy2019 : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155726/ns2-nancy2019
ns2_nancy_veil : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155851/ns2-nancy-veil
«1

Comments

  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    edited April 2018
    With what weapon? MG is heavier than the rifle, and will therefore have worse jetpack performance.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


    Vetinari
  • Deck_Deck_ Members Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Posts: 298 Advanced user
    edited April 2018
    I think the game plays better when jps and exos don’t feel impossible to kill. The key to using jps well is use it as a long jump and move forward or backwards or to side. Don’t fly straight up unless you have to. You’re pretty hard to hit without getting great shots on aliens if you’re moving forwards or backwards. And moving backwards, and finding your teammates is a good way to stay alive in a tough spot.
    pSyk0mAnBeigeAlertcooliticNordic
  • XaleXale Paris / FranceMembers Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24767Posts: 155 Advanced user
    coolitic wrote: »
    With what weapon? MG is heavier than the rifle, and will therefore have worse jetpack performance.

    Even with standard weapon...


    By the way does MG deals half damage to structure like HMG in NS3.2 ?
    Old NS1.0 player (JP/HMG for the win)
    Mapper (de_mangashop for CS1.6 / CSS / CS:GO )
    ns2_hera2018 : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155092/ns2-hera2018
    ns2_nancy2019 : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155726/ns2-nancy2019
    ns2_nancy_veil : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155851/ns2-nancy-veil
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Posts: 3,432 Advanced user
    NS1 jetpack when?
    76561197996992409.png
  • HandschuhHandschuh Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Posts: 387 Advanced user
    edited April 2018
    In NS2 I think the jp plays way more realistic or flued than in NS1.

    In NS1 you can literally use your jp to bounce of the ground to get some height... but you had no way to adjust your height perfectly by "using up your jp energy". You either need to press spacebar the whole time so you gain what feels like 1centimeter per second or you just fall down once again to the ground so you can "bounce up" again. This makes the ns1 marines more like a jumping frog... but hey they have doublejump and silencejump.. so that is fine for ns1.

    In NS2 you can have more control, and you - what you probably haven't noticed - keep up your speed, hold spacebar to long... use it carfuly and you can easily fly with 1 JP fuel to Cargo from Marinestart on veil... you're gonna be out of energy, but with holding spacebar so you bounce with "0" jp energy of the ground you can still maintain some of your speed to get to cargo quickly ... (ofc when you slow down, you lose your speed and you have 0 Energy to fly up again)

    The way ns2 maps are built I think it is pretty balanced for that.

    For NS1 the JP it is fine, because you can keep up your height for a pretty long time, but this was necessary since fades are insanely fast (and stronger) than in ns2.


    If you take the differences of these games into account, it is like you compare apples to oranges.... (or pears, as we would say in germany :) )



    Some example about ns1 jp you can find here:
    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/255103598?t=00h26m17s

    I have HMG, so I'm even heavier then you see, but even with SG it is hard to ascent...and if you notice how insanely fast leap for the skulks is... it is the obvious choice that marines have more jp fuel... but if you look closely... I do have more JP energy, but it is not like I'm in the air all the time

    And what I've forgotten to mention is, if you don't use strafekeys efficiently: strafing / counterstrafing what is needed for example for the marine backwardsjump or as fade... THEN you're a flying brick which is an easy target anyway

    Tried to explain the movementmechanics here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/233738549?t=00h03m18s

    .trixX.
  • XaleXale Paris / FranceMembers Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24767Posts: 155 Advanced user
    I don't agree. I just tested :


    On NS1 I can JP from Marine Start to Hive with 1 fuel tank

    On NS2 I can JP from Marine Start to 1, maybe 2 nodes away, not further

    Old NS1.0 player (JP/HMG for the win)
    Mapper (de_mangashop for CS1.6 / CSS / CS:GO )
    ns2_hera2018 : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155092/ns2-hera2018
    ns2_nancy2019 : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155726/ns2-nancy2019
    ns2_nancy_veil : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155851/ns2-nancy-veil
  • XaleXale Paris / FranceMembers Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24767Posts: 155 Advanced user
    edited April 2018
    This game is pretty unbalanced anyway. 80% of the game I play, aliens wins.

    I think I just understood why by replaying NS1 : NS2 has a more complex graphic geometry, wich helps a LOT skulks and alien... I'm gonna make another tread. Aliens have far more upgrades and possibility advantage than Marines...

    Web on first hive ? Seriously ?
    Old NS1.0 player (JP/HMG for the win)
    Mapper (de_mangashop for CS1.6 / CSS / CS:GO )
    ns2_hera2018 : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155092/ns2-hera2018
    ns2_nancy2019 : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155726/ns2-nancy2019
    ns2_nancy_veil : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155851/ns2-nancy-veil
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
    Xale wrote: »
    Web on first hive ? Seriously ?

    Webs were nerfed into oblivion anyways, they don't snare jetpack users nor do they prevent people from firing, they're by far more visible than their ns1 counterpart, all webs do now is just parasite marines and slow them down by a unnoticeable amount (if that is even a thing still). Most marines running into a firefight will just run straight through them.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Posts: 773 Advanced user
    Xale wrote: »
    This game is pretty unbalanced anyway. 80% of the game I play, aliens wins.

    I think I just understood why by replaying NS1 : NS2 has a more complex graphic geometry, wich helps a LOT skulks and alien... I'm gonna make another tread. Aliens have far more upgrades and possibility advantage than Marines...

    Web on first hive ? Seriously ?
    You should probably get some more experience playing the game and play on a higher level to judge balance.
    Handschuh
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    Xale wrote: »
    This game is pretty unbalanced anyway. 80% of the game I play, aliens wins.
    Good thing that is just the games you play. In games since B315, between 12 and 24 players, on non rookie only servers aliens win about 55% of games.
    8y8Mk1i.png

    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    XaleSupaFredskav2coolitic
  • XaleXale Paris / FranceMembers Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24767Posts: 155 Advanced user
    Xale wrote: »
    This game is pretty unbalanced anyway. 80% of the game I play, aliens wins.

    I think I just understood why by replaying NS1 : NS2 has a more complex graphic geometry, wich helps a LOT skulks and alien... I'm gonna make another tread. Aliens have far more upgrades and possibility advantage than Marines...

    Web on first hive ? Seriously ?
    You should probably get some more experience playing the game and play on a higher level to judge balance.

    ahaha that's exactly what I was excepting, some pr0 g4mer giving lessons. Let me give you one : balance in FFA is as important than in competitive play. Why ? Because casual players buy the game and make it possible for Pr0 to expand the game. That's exactly the problem that deals Street Fighter V. Although, Even on making match with "Hive balancement" (or i dunno how its call - the stuff to balance with level of the players) aliens wins 80%.

    I believe competitive still plays 6vs6 ? Well in FFA it's more like 10vs10 or even 14vs14 wich changes the game a lot.

    From what I see from my NS1 (3.2) perspective (wich was very balanced), aliens really had HUGE power evolution :
    - Skulk evolution doesn't cost anything
    - Gorge has lots of new stuff (babbler, balls, web, gorge tunnel,etc... )
    - Lerk can spike with 1 hive (???)
    - Commander has drifter right at the beginning (Marine need robot factory to get that robot)
    - You can drop any chamber even if not related to your main hive i.e having Shift hive and that cloaking structure. Completely cheated.

    Marine doesn't have much new stuff. Arcs are basically just siege that you can move a little bit (they are so slooooow), but I thing the biggest lost is Motion Tracking. Flame trower is gadget, so does the 2 other type of grenade. You only get 2 mines. No one takes a welder, and even when you got one you are too busy shooting these skulk hiding everywhere.


    No sorry, I'm just seeing an asymmetric evolution here.


    Of course marines can always drop surprise phase-gate / Beacon / Rush shotgun and kill a hive in seconds wich in competitive can change a lot. But Aliens are fast and completely independant.
    Old NS1.0 player (JP/HMG for the win)
    Mapper (de_mangashop for CS1.6 / CSS / CS:GO )
    ns2_hera2018 : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155092/ns2-hera2018
    ns2_nancy2019 : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155726/ns2-nancy2019
    ns2_nancy_veil : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155851/ns2-nancy-veil
  • XaleXale Paris / FranceMembers Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24767Posts: 155 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Xale wrote: »
    This game is pretty unbalanced anyway. 80% of the game I play, aliens wins.
    Good thing that is just the games you play. In games since B315, between 12 and 24 players, on non rookie only servers aliens win about 55% of games.
    8y8Mk1i.png

    So you clearly giving me right :)

    80%/20% is my perception (and surely too much of course), 55%/45% for alien is still HUGE...!!
    Old NS1.0 player (JP/HMG for the win)
    Mapper (de_mangashop for CS1.6 / CSS / CS:GO )
    ns2_hera2018 : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155092/ns2-hera2018
    ns2_nancy2019 : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155726/ns2-nancy2019
    ns2_nancy_veil : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155851/ns2-nancy-veil
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Posts: 773 Advanced user
    edited April 2018
    Xale wrote: »
    Xale wrote: »
    This game is pretty unbalanced anyway. 80% of the game I play, aliens wins.

    I think I just understood why by replaying NS1 : NS2 has a more complex graphic geometry, wich helps a LOT skulks and alien... I'm gonna make another tread. Aliens have far more upgrades and possibility advantage than Marines...

    Web on first hive ? Seriously ?
    You should probably get some more experience playing the game and play on a higher level to judge balance.

    ahaha that's exactly what I was excepting, some pr0 g4mer giving lessons. Let me give you one : balance in FFA is as important than in competitive play. Why ? Because casual players buy the game and make it possible for Pr0 to expand the game. That's exactly the problem that deals Street Fighter V. Although, Even on making match with "Hive balancement" (or i dunno how its call - the stuff to balance with level of the players) aliens wins 80%.

    I believe competitive still plays 6vs6 ? Well in FFA it's more like 10vs10 or even 14vs14 wich changes the game a lot.

    From what I see from my NS1 (3.2) perspective (wich was very balanced), aliens really had HUGE power evolution :
    - Skulk evolution doesn't cost anything
    - Gorge has lots of new stuff (babbler, balls, web, gorge tunnel,etc... )
    - Lerk can spike with 1 hive (???)
    - Commander has drifter right at the beginning (Marine need robot factory to get that robot)
    - You can drop any chamber even if not related to your main hive i.e having Shift hive and that cloaking structure. Completely cheated.

    Marine doesn't have much new stuff. Arcs are basically just siege that you can move a little bit (they are so slooooow), but I thing the biggest lost is Motion Tracking. Flame trower is gadget, so does the 2 other type of grenade. You only get 2 mines. No one takes a welder, and even when you got one you are too busy shooting these skulk hiding everywhere.


    No sorry, I'm just seeing an asymmetric evolution here.


    Of course marines can always drop surprise phase-gate / Beacon / Rush shotgun and kill a hive in seconds wich in competitive can change a lot. But Aliens are fast and completely independant.

    I am not a "pr0 g4mer", also I have no idea what FFA means. If you are talking about Free For All, that game mode does not exist in NS2.

    Generally you are just talking non sense. It is impossible for a game to be balanced in high level play and at the same time be imbalanced on low level play. A game is either balanced or it is not (to whatever degree) and people might be able to use the tools the game gives you to its full advantage or they are not. The higher the skill level, the closer people get to the "using full advantage". This is why you should not (even though UWE tries to) balance for anything else than highest level of play, because everything below is always missing information and competence, non high end players can never see what is possible and what is not.

    You are one of the guys who thinks aliens are op, there a lot of rookies who think marines are op. So how do you want to balance this now? Public play is completely useless to measure game balance, not only is the skill way too low, it is also too inconsistent. The skill level on pubs differs extremely between the players, there are also many maps who are imbalanced enough to have a meaningful say in the game's outcome. Also, player join and leave randomly on pubs, teams are not organized and the commander also has a huge influence. Let's also not forget some popular server have huge problems with performance which adds into the mix.

    You are right though in saying player numbers can have an effect on game balance. They really do.

    Also, if you can see the balance of the game as being good in highest level of play, but it seems way off on pubs (data like the one from Nordic is of course required here, no subjective experience garbage), then there might be a problem with balance scaling, but not with game balance.

    You should rethink your attitude. Instead of complaining about balance you clearly are not competent enough to judge, you could try to find ways to find plays against those things you feel are op. Not only would it be a great way to deal with your frustration, it would also helping you to increase your skill level faster.
    coolitic
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
    edited April 2018
    While NS2 isn't specifically balanced with only competitive players in mind, they are a large consideration in how the game is balanced, even if a large portion of them hardly even played regular ns2.
    Post edited by IeptBarakat on
    coolitic
  • MephillesMephilles GermanyMembers, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Posts: 967 Advanced user
    the only thing where I think you can argue that NS2 is balanced for high skill but not for low skill is if you argue in a way that it takes longer to get good at aliens than marines. Which would mean that a 20 hour player with 10 hours in each team would be a better marine than alien.

    But when it comes to balance issues in ns2 I'd say it is the inconsistence of environment... namely playernumbers.

    The game plays and flows completely different if you just go from 8v8 to 10v10. Now think about that there are 6v6 games happening and 12v12 (I excluded ns2large for this one).

    The difference in playernumbers is the reason why there are 8000 mods that do balance tweaks out there.
    return to zero
  • HandschuhHandschuh Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Posts: 387 Advanced user
    edited April 2018
    Xale wrote: »
    On NS2 I can JP from Marine Start to 1, maybe 2 nodes away, not further
    Well out of the blue I recorded this now... I got through cargo to dome...
    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/256128364?t=00h00m30s
    Between 30-60 seconds a good example how you can fly effectively (outside of the timeframe I played badly.. without warming up I always play bad :D)

    In general ofc jp is weaker than in ns1, but it is a matter of balance...
    Xale wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    Xale wrote: »
    This game is pretty unbalanced anyway. 80% of the game I play, aliens wins.
    Good thing that is just the games you play. In games since B315, between 12 and 24 players, on non rookie only servers aliens win about 55% of games.
    8y8Mk1i.png

    So you clearly giving me right :)

    80%/20% is my perception (and surely too much of course), 55%/45% for alien is still HUGE...!!
    lol... calling 5% huge

    How many baserushes do Marines vs Baserushes by aliens? obviously aliens need a bit higher winrate with the current tunnelmeta...

    You want a serious discussion and then this... hard to take you seriously
  • skav2skav2 Members, Reinforced - Gold Join Date: 2007-05-28 Member: 61037Posts: 190 Advanced user
    I can still jet pack fairly far so Im not seeing an issue. Plus a nerf to marines staying in the air seems like a win to me. As a skulk and getting Jp rushed on 1 hive it makes it so I can at least reach the marines SOMETIMES. Perma flying marines were kind of annoying even with leap. Not a big deal. If you arent constantly using the JP it will refill soon enough.

    @Handschuh Yup, thats how you do it boiiiiiiii! The problem is that most people just fly straight up which is slow and doesnt get you far versus using it to close or gain distance.
  • NintendowsNintendows Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Posts: 380 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Xale wrote: »
    This game is pretty unbalanced anyway. 80% of the game I play, aliens wins.
    Good thing that is just the games you play. In games since B315, between 12 and 24 players, on non rookie only servers aliens win about 55% of games.
    8y8Mk1i.png

    Does this exclude games on servers that were disabling healthbars? ;)
    coolitic
  • XaleXale Paris / FranceMembers Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24767Posts: 155 Advanced user
    edited April 2018
    Xale wrote: »
    Xale wrote: »
    This game is pretty unbalanced anyway. 80% of the game I play, aliens wins.

    I think I just understood why by replaying NS1 : NS2 has a more complex graphic geometry, wich helps a LOT skulks and alien... I'm gonna make another tread. Aliens have far more upgrades and possibility advantage than Marines...

    Web on first hive ? Seriously ?
    You should probably get some more experience playing the game and play on a higher level to judge balance.

    ahaha that's exactly what I was excepting, some pr0 g4mer giving lessons. Let me give you one : balance in FFA is as important than in competitive play. Why ? Because casual players buy the game and make it possible for Pr0 to expand the game. That's exactly the problem that deals Street Fighter V. Although, Even on making match with "Hive balancement" (or i dunno how its call - the stuff to balance with level of the players) aliens wins 80%.

    I believe competitive still plays 6vs6 ? Well in FFA it's more like 10vs10 or even 14vs14 wich changes the game a lot.

    From what I see from my NS1 (3.2) perspective (wich was very balanced), aliens really had HUGE power evolution :
    - Skulk evolution doesn't cost anything
    - Gorge has lots of new stuff (babbler, balls, web, gorge tunnel,etc... )
    - Lerk can spike with 1 hive (???)
    - Commander has drifter right at the beginning (Marine need robot factory to get that robot)
    - You can drop any chamber even if not related to your main hive i.e having Shift hive and that cloaking structure. Completely cheated.

    Marine doesn't have much new stuff. Arcs are basically just siege that you can move a little bit (they are so slooooow), but I thing the biggest lost is Motion Tracking. Flame trower is gadget, so does the 2 other type of grenade. You only get 2 mines. No one takes a welder, and even when you got one you are too busy shooting these skulk hiding everywhere.


    No sorry, I'm just seeing an asymmetric evolution here.


    Of course marines can always drop surprise phase-gate / Beacon / Rush shotgun and kill a hive in seconds wich in competitive can change a lot. But Aliens are fast and completely independant.

    I am not a "pr0 g4mer", also I have no idea what FFA means. If you are talking about Free For All, that game mode does not exist in NS2.

    Generally you are just talking non sense. It is impossible for a game to be balanced in high level play and at the same time be imbalanced on low level play. A game is either balanced or it is not (to whatever degree) and people might be able to use the tools the game gives you to its full advantage or they are not. The higher the skill level, the closer people get to the "using full advantage". This is why you should not (even though UWE tries to) balance for anything else than highest level of play, because everything below is always missing information and competence, non high end players can never see what is possible and what is not.

    You are one of the guys who thinks aliens are op, there a lot of rookies who think marines are op. So how do you want to balance this now? Public play is completely useless to measure game balance, not only is the skill way too low, it is also too inconsistent. The skill level on pubs differs extremely between the players, there are also many maps who are imbalanced enough to have a meaningful say in the game's outcome. Also, player join and leave randomly on pubs, teams are not organized and the commander also has a huge influence. Let's also not forget some popular server have huge problems with performance which adds into the mix.

    You are right though in saying player numbers can have an effect on game balance. They really do.

    Also, if you can see the balance of the game as being good in highest level of play, but it seems way off on pubs (data like the one from Nordic is of course required here, no subjective experience garbage), then there might be a problem with balance scaling, but not with game balance.


    FFA has always been the name on playing on public server.

    Usually in this game rookies think Marines are op because they are really disapointed by alien controls. They go straigh foward to the enemy trying to bite them et they get killed easily. The first time they go fade they get killed because they don't use blink. In general don't know how to use alien skills, and also all the regeneration stuff.

    You should rethink your attitude. Instead of complaining about balance you clearly are not competent enough to judge, you could try to find ways to find plays against those things you feel are op. Not only would it be a great way to deal with your frustration, it would also helping you to increase your skill level faster.


    Thank you, but I am competent to judge. I played on great teams. You litterally don't say anything about that asimetrical evolution, wich for me is a shock. We don't talk about Warcraft 3 vs Warcraft 2 here, more about Starcraft 1 vs Starcraft 2. Some stuff are really obvious. Hell, aliens are so much enpowered that they plan to remove Silence upgrade on the next Patch !! :scream:
    Post edited by Xale on
    Old NS1.0 player (JP/HMG for the win)
    Mapper (de_mangashop for CS1.6 / CSS / CS:GO )
    ns2_hera2018 : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155092/ns2-hera2018
    ns2_nancy2019 : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155726/ns2-nancy2019
    ns2_nancy_veil : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155851/ns2-nancy-veil
  • XaleXale Paris / FranceMembers Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24767Posts: 155 Advanced user
    the only thing where I think you can argue that NS2 is balanced for high skill but not for low skill is if you argue in a way that it takes longer to get good at aliens than marines. Which would mean that a 20 hour player with 10 hours in each team would be a better marine than alien.

    Totally agree (see my last post)

    Handschuh wrote: »
    Xale wrote: »

    So you clearly giving me right :)

    80%/20% is my perception (and surely too much of course), 55%/45% for alien is still HUGE...!!
    lol... calling 5% huge

    It's not 5% it's 9/10% so yes it's huge

    How many baserushes do Marines vs Baserushes by aliens .

    Aliens aren't so supposed to rush the base in my opinion. It's really unfair that 1/2 skulk with good skill and mine dodging can damage the base so much, forcing Marine to beacon (since they walk slowly). Map control has a HUGE importance in RTS game (and also in competitive team-based FPS). Skulk runs so freaking fast...! And command station shouldn't be so weak (it use to be hell to bite one in NS1). Loosing a hive is part of the game (especially on 5 tech point maps...). Building a 2nd command station doesn't offers much, it's a bit a waste of money.



    Again, Marine don't have won much stuff, and you know what would be ABSOLUTELY FREAKING AMAZING IN THIS GAME ?


    Since aliens have Hydra sticking to wall, Marine should have this :


    peutidf5dqtv.jpg


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52r2zFQnCGg

    :mrgreen:
    Old NS1.0 player (JP/HMG for the win)
    Mapper (de_mangashop for CS1.6 / CSS / CS:GO )
    ns2_hera2018 : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155092/ns2-hera2018
    ns2_nancy2019 : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155726/ns2-nancy2019
    ns2_nancy_veil : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155851/ns2-nancy-veil
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    edited May 2018
    Nintendows wrote: »
    Does this exclude games on servers that were disabling healthbars? ;)
    I described the exact constraints I used in the post. Those constraints took me 1 minute to enter. To decide which and what mods should be excluded, get their mod id's, and then input them would take much more time and would be unnecessary in this context. I was simply giving a general average statistic. Not every post I make involving graphs needs to have the utmost rigor.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • skav2skav2 Members, Reinforced - Gold Join Date: 2007-05-28 Member: 61037Posts: 190 Advanced user
    edited May 2018
    It's not 5% it's 9/10% so yes it's huge

    I think they meant 5% difference from both sides.
    Aliens aren't so supposed to rush the base in my opinion. It's really unfair that 1/2 skulk with good skill and mine dodging can damage the base so much, forcing Marine to beacon

    The same thing happens on the marine time. 2 good marines walk into an area and suddenly every lifeform dies and it becomes harder to get them out than it is to get into fort knox. It really just depends on the team I suppose and it kind of relates to all level of skill players playing together. Then again its much to late to change that now.
    And command station shouldn't be so weak

    I will agree to disagree on this. For example last night we played an HOUR game on caged. We destroyed the Comm chair at least 6 times in generator but it took 3 aliens to take it down and that took about 15 seconds of constant biting. You would think with bile, lerk and skulk biting it would go down quick but it didnt. Larger player servers tend to have more damage going around so its easier to destroy structures. The server was a 11 v 11, if it was any less then it would have taken much longer to kill with 1-2 aliens.

    Since large player count servers are basically a necessity there is no getting around it. I suppose if there was a mod that increased structure health based on # of players could help even things out.

    Got a little off topic. I dont think JPS have been nerfed to uselessness. They seem to be in a good spot now but could offer a little faster initial vertical ascension if things are changed. They are better uses for horizontal movement than vertical. Kind of reminds me of Mass effect Andromeda a bit
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Posts: 773 Advanced user
    edited May 2018
    Xale wrote: »

    FFA has always been the name on playing on public server.

    Usually in this game rookies think Marines are op because they are really disapointed by alien controls. They go straigh foward to the enemy trying to bite them et they get killed easily. The first time they go fade they get killed because they don't use blink. In general don't know how to use alien skills, and also all the regeneration stuff.
    That is what I am saying, rookies don't know what they can do and what they can't do. That is the reason why you think aliens are op.

    Thank you, but I am competent to judge. I played on great teams. You litterally don't say anything about that asimetrical evolution, wich for me is a shock. We don't talk about Warcraft 3 vs Warcraft 2 here, more about Starcraft 1 vs Starcraft 2. Some stuff are really obvious. Hell, aliens are so much enpowered that they plan to remove Silence upgrade on the next Patch !! :scream:

    I don't say anything about that asymmetrical evolution because it is irrelevant. We are not talking about Warcraft, neither do we talk about Starcraft. You complain about the NS2 balance here. Not even NS1 balance has anything to do with this because it is a different game.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Posts: 773 Advanced user
    Xale wrote: »
    Aliens aren't so supposed to rush the base in my opinion. It's really unfair that 1/2 skulk with good skill and mine dodging can damage the base so much, forcing Marine to beacon (since they walk slowly). Map control has a HUGE importance in RTS game (and also in competitive team-based FPS). Skulk runs so freaking fast...! And command station shouldn't be so weak (it use to be hell to bite one in NS1). Loosing a hive is part of the game (especially on 5 tech point maps...). Building a 2nd command station doesn't offers much, it's a bit a waste of money.

    Aliens (like marines) are supposed to do what is most effective to win the game. If attacking the marine base is the most effective thing at that point, they should do it. There is nothing unfair in it that skulks are good in killing structures. If you want to avoid having skulks going rampage in your base, you should make sure they can't find a way to your base or just defend it.
  • XaleXale Paris / FranceMembers Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24767Posts: 155 Advanced user
    edited May 2018
    Xale wrote: »

    FFA has always been the name on playing on public server.

    Usually in this game rookies think Marines are op because they are really disapointed by alien controls. They go straigh foward to the enemy trying to bite them et they get killed easily. The first time they go fade they get killed because they don't use blink. In general don't know how to use alien skills, and also all the regeneration stuff.
    That is what I am saying, rookies don't know what they can do and what they can't do. That is the reason why you think aliens are op.

    Well sorry but the graphic give me reason... :/ I don't talk about balance to prove anything, all I want is a game that is fair to play because I love this game !! And I bet you love it too !!! If a skilled NS1 player playing plays NS2 for only 2 weeks and say "It's strange I really find the alien more powerfull" and that the graff proves that I'm right... what can I do ? Maybe on previous patch Marine were more powerful I don't know !!


    Thus I'd be interested in more stats (per map for example)
    Thank you, but I am competent to judge. I played on great teams. You litterally don't say anything about that asimetrical evolution, wich for me is a shock. We don't talk about Warcraft 3 vs Warcraft 2 here, more about Starcraft 1 vs Starcraft 2. Some stuff are really obvious. Hell, aliens are so much enpowered that they plan to remove Silence upgrade on the next Patch !! :scream:

    I don't say anything about that asymmetrical evolution because it is irrelevant. We are not talking about Warcraft, neither do we talk about Starcraft. You complain about the NS2 balance here. Not even NS1 balance has anything to do with this because it is a different game.
    [/quote]

    No it's not, sorry, you just bad faith. NS2 is just a basic evolution of NS1. Have you play warcraft 2/3 and Starcraft 1 and 2 ? Warcraft 3 has 2 more races than Warcraft 2 and has a hero/xp level system. That's absolutely nothing to see. Starcraft 2 (Wings of liberty) has same races and about the same unit. Sure they are some little difference but basically it's the same game just an evolution like NS1 and NS2.

    We are talking about a game that is mostly based on an RTS gameplay, and map control on that type of game is the heart of gameplay, skulk/fade/lerk (and even gorge !) moves really, really fast...


    Just played again this afternoon, I realised than creep/infestation is really powerfull, while power node are really a pain in the ass. And the turret factory is now replaced by 2 different building... didn't tick me much before but again, a nerfed stuff for Marine :/

    Aliens (like marines) are supposed to do what is most effective to win the game. If attacking the marine base is the most effective thing at that point, they should do it. There is nothing unfair in it that skulks are good in killing structures. If you want to avoid having skulks going rampage in your base, you should make sure they can't find a way to your base or just defend it.


    Ok let's see what solution do we have :

    - "Marine go back to base !" "I'm already too far away"
    - "Distress beacon !" "But comm we have excellent position in the ma*PIOUUU*"
    - "Let's drop mine !" *skulk sneaking between mines*
    - "Let's make turrets" "Ok eject this comm he's wasting our money...!"
    - "Ok I'm getting out of comm" => "Bite bite" "we lost !" (ok that doesn't happens everytime but even...)

    I don't say, it was the same problem in NS1, BUT :

    - Command station was harder to bite
    - We could relocate anywhere on the map
    - We could have Motion Tracking to prevent a bit.
    Old NS1.0 player (JP/HMG for the win)
    Mapper (de_mangashop for CS1.6 / CSS / CS:GO )
    ns2_hera2018 : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155092/ns2-hera2018
    ns2_nancy2019 : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155726/ns2-nancy2019
    ns2_nancy_veil : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155851/ns2-nancy-veil
  • XaleXale Paris / FranceMembers Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24767Posts: 155 Advanced user
    Handschuh wrote: »
    Xale wrote: »
    On NS2 I can JP from Marine Start to 1, maybe 2 nodes away, not further
    Well out of the blue I recorded this now... I got through cargo to dome...
    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/256128364?t=00h00m30s
    Between 30-60 seconds a good example how you can fly effectively (outside of the timeframe I played badly.. without warming up I always play bad :D)

    Ok so that's not a jet-pack, that's a jump-pack... :mrgreen:

    Old NS1.0 player (JP/HMG for the win)
    Mapper (de_mangashop for CS1.6 / CSS / CS:GO )
    ns2_hera2018 : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155092/ns2-hera2018
    ns2_nancy2019 : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155726/ns2-nancy2019
    ns2_nancy_veil : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155851/ns2-nancy-veil
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    @Xale Historically aliens have won about 52% of games overall, and have always won a bit more than marines. You seem to be making the mistake that winning = strength. It seems that it is generally believed in the community, but maybe not by all, that marines are the stronger side but that aliens can get behind the lines and win by tunnel rushes. I have no stats that can prove or disprove this. But saying that my pie graph there shows that aliens are stronger is wrong. All it says is that aliens happen to more. You can argue that aliens are stronger, and you are, but my graph does not prove anything.

    The following graph is a bit outdated being that it is from 2016, but it does which team wins more often. This also is not definitive proof that aliens are stronger.
    XwCytDR.png

    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • .trixX..trixX. BudapestMembers Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Posts: 858 Advanced user
    edited May 2018
    @Xale I started playing with NS2 like 1.5 years after it was released. Until then i goofed around on the occasional combat matches that were left of NS1.

    I was baffled by how different the two games are. Lifeform movements, strategies, meta... all had changed, but that was to be expected after UWE built their own game engine.
    My point is, i guess, that you have to live by these changes. If JPs had more juice in them, aliens would NEVER survive them being researched. The game changed, and they had to adjust those knobs, and i believe they've done their best in that regard. I have my gripes about the enlarged alien hitboxes and HP bars, but viewing the big picture, the game is pretty darn balanced as it currently stands.
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
    Nordic
  • XaleXale Paris / FranceMembers Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24767Posts: 155 Advanced user
    .trixX. wrote: »
    @Xale I started playing with NS2 like 1.5 years after it was released. Until then i goofed around on the occasional combat matches that were left of NS1.

    I was baffled by how different the two games are. Lifeform movements, strategies, meta... all had changed, but that was to be expected after UWE built their own game engine.
    My point is, i guess, that you have to live by these changes. If JPs had more juice in them, aliens would NEVER survive them being researched. The game changed, and they had to adjust those knobs, and i believe they've done their best in that regard. I have my gripes about the enlarged alien hitboxes and HP bars, but viewing the big picture, the game is pretty darn balanced as it currently stands.

    Err, are you saying you only played NS1 in combat mode ?!?
    Old NS1.0 player (JP/HMG for the win)
    Mapper (de_mangashop for CS1.6 / CSS / CS:GO )
    ns2_hera2018 : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155092/ns2-hera2018
    ns2_nancy2019 : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155726/ns2-nancy2019
    ns2_nancy_veil : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155851/ns2-nancy-veil
  • .trixX..trixX. BudapestMembers Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Posts: 858 Advanced user
    Xale wrote: »
    Err, are you saying you only played NS1 in combat mode ?!?

    Would it make any real difference in the validity of my argument? :P
    yes, i've played plenty of classic matches ;]
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
    skav2Nordic
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