Two Smurfing-Related Ideas

NousWandererNousWanderer Join Date: 2010-05-07 Member: 71646Members Posts: 258 Advanced user
edited March 2018 in Ideas and Suggestions
As I wrote in this thread, there are plenty of legitimate reasons for players to make alt accounts due to the way the current hiveskill system conflates a variety of fundamentally different roles in an attempt to calculate a per-player win probability.

I don't want to have a debate about whether or not alt accounts should be allowed, whether the people using them are moral, etc. I've already made the case that there are legitimate uses of alt accounts. That said, any uninitialized account is going to start at 0 and there will be a lag between their start and the calculation of their "true" skill value. This presents an issue. It's a self-correcting one, but that correction process takes time.

Two suggestions were made in that thread that would have a positive impact on this. I'm listing them here. I do not know if either is feasible:

1. Initialize new hive IDs that come from family sharing to be the maximum hive score of any of the players under the primary steam account.
  • Let's say that your main account has 3.5k skill. You create a new commanding-only account for practice. This account begins at 3.5k skill as opposed to 0.
  • After initialization, the account skill values will naturally diverge depending on how each account is used. For example, if one account is used exclusively for commanding but another account is used as a primary, the skills will update to reflect true ability after games are played. We have adagrad, so the process won't take unreasonably long.
  • This disincentivizes smurfing and requires the purchase of a new copy of NS2 if someone wants to initialize at 0.
  • Potential Caveats: Ensure that accounts created in this fashion won't show up on any future Hive Skill Stats site unless certain conditions are met (e.g., a specific number of hours played, or a specific number of games played). Because you know at least a very narrow, trollish subset of the high skill folks would do this just to try to spam the leaderboards with duplicate skill ratings.

2. Consider Adam. (https://arxiv.org/pdf/1412.6980.pdf)
  • Moultano describes it as follows: "This is essentially adagrad + momentum, so if you win a bunch of games in a row, your update keeps going up." In other words, it's like a snappier adagrad that would possibly reflect true hive scores even more quickly than adagrad alone does. But there's a downside that would have to be addressed:
  • Potential Caveats: "The update blends the current value with the previous value, so your skill could go down even if you won the game, just because you lost the previous game, which I think people would hate.There might be some way we could take inspiration from this but prevent that particular behavior."

Comments

  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    There might be some way we could take inspiration from this but prevent that particular behavior." [/list]

    ...unless we hide hive skill because it doesn't need to be visible.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • NintendowsNintendows Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 379 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    There might be some way we could take inspiration from this but prevent that particular behavior." [/list]

    ...unless we hide hive skill because it doesn't need to be visible.

    Hiding hive skill is up to the individual server owner. There's no way you could hide it completely or the servers would have no way to balance teams.
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,829 admin
    edited March 2018
    Nintendows wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    There might be some way we could take inspiration from this but prevent that particular behavior." [/list]

    ...unless we hide hive skill because it doesn't need to be visible.

    Hiding hive skill is up to the individual server owner. There's no way you could hide it completely or the servers would have no way to balance teams.

    The only way hive skill could be completely 100% foolproof hidden is if Hive itself received a list of steam ids from the server of the players awaiting balance, and then sent back the balanced team compositions, thus never exposing the actual hive numbers to the server at all.
  • BlrgBlrg Join Date: 2013-09-01 Member: 187580Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 153 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    ...unless we hide hive skill because it doesn't need to be visible.

    I completely disagree with that

    If that is true, maybe all other multiplayer games should also hide their ranking. Go tell LOL and other games players that now they are no longer bronze/silver/gold/etc... because some individuals could get offended to see that they are not the best of the world in that particular game

    And in all those games people advance in ranking only due to winrate. And in all those games people complain and insult their developers about balancing and matchmaking. They cry that the other players at their ranking are stupid and the system is unfair to them... I haven't seen a single game without it. And that happens because that is human nature. Most people can't accept when they are failing at something and they need to blame it to someone else, being that needed excuse their teammates, the balance or the developers.

    Hive skill being visible is not about status. Or at least it is not only about status. It is kind of a line of command in pubs. It is about whose calls in your team should you listen to when you don't know anyone in the server and specially when you are new to the game. I have encountered many below 300 hive skill players making terrible calls that people listen to just because they are very vocal. Me personally I shut up and listen when a better player overrules my call. That is easy when I know the player, otherwise I need to see their hiveskill


    About the topic of two different hive skills, I have always been a big supporter of it. It could be really awesome. But lets be real, you don't have a different ranking for each role in the other multiplayer games. And your skill differs in there as much as it does with the different factions in ns2. It sucks when you play your worst role/faction... but that's how it works everywhere

    TL;DR: hive skill needs to be visible. All other games have the same problems as ns2. And rookie commanders need to appear as GREEN when they command a WHITE server
    Handschuh
  • NintendowsNintendows Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 379 Advanced user
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    Nintendows wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    There might be some way we could take inspiration from this but prevent that particular behavior." [/list]

    ...unless we hide hive skill because it doesn't need to be visible.

    Hiding hive skill is up to the individual server owner. There's no way you could hide it completely or the servers would have no way to balance teams.

    The only way hive skill could be completely 100% foolproof hidden is if Hive itself received a list of steam ids from the server of the players awaiting balance, and then sent back the balanced team compositions, thus never exposing the actual hive numbers to the server at all.

    That would be pretty cool... Would that be a lot of work to do?
  • ArchieArchie Antarctica Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58028Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 440 Advanced user
    edited March 2018
    Can i also get my hiveskill fixed? i find it abusive that i have 1.9k hive skill when my smurf account had over 5k at one period. Just jokes i prefer the low hive skill, lets me abuse the skill balance system :)
    IPB Image Constellation - a great source of income :> http://www.netplanet.co.nz/ns/
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    edited March 2018
    Blrg wrote: »
    If that is true, maybe all other multiplayer games should also hide their ranking. Go tell LOL and other games players that now they are no longer bronze/silver/gold/etc...
    How far did you read into the thread I linked? I will quote myself.

    Nordic wrote: »
    ...
    UWE does have real player progression systems coming...
    https://trello.com/c/ov771Jrf/16-player-level-progression
    https://trello.com/c/Y03Driqa/22-progression-rewards

    ... and some additional player stats systems coming...
    https://trello.com/c/N0djMvpp/20-player-stats-system
    https://trello.com/c/AbN8RzW4/24-steam-stats
    ...
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    It kind of is an individual progression system though, and a pretty good one. The score reflects your likelihood of winning - I can't come up with a better goal for the game. If everyone tries to be better at winning - then everyone has better games imo.
    Players use hive skill values can work as a pseudo progression system but it was never designed as such. Your logic oversimplifies and ignores the problems a visible hive skill produces.

    To name a few:
    • Showing hive skill highlights it's use as an individual skill metric, and distracts from its use as a team balancing system. Hive skill values are a representation of a players likelihood of winning, which reflects skill, but does not define it. A visible hive skill often causes players to put more value into skill values than they should.
    • Showing hive skill actually creates distrust in the system. Faults in the system are always more noticeable and memorable. Hive skill values may reflect skill value, but they lack context, allowing players to perceive faults where there might be none. Players will see a player with excellent mechanical skill getting many kills, but still has a low hive skill. It is not easy to understand that although this player has high mechanical skill, he loses often. This is assuming the hive skill is even significant, and it may not be. Hive skill values are now significant after 90 games on average.
    • Hive skill values used as a skill progression system creates a metagame where players only play to increase the number. For these players it highlights the loss more, making it feel worse. Since hive skill values is built on team performance, it becomes easier to blame the team for the loss. A visible hive skill can easily increase toxic behavior. Here is an example of this metagame, and another.

    I linked UWE's plans for a real progression system above, but I forgot one. UWE plans to add a competitive ranking.
    UWE wrote:
    Hive skill should not be shown to players, as it ideally would find a range that represents a players current skill and then stay within it. It's not meant to be gamed, and if people try to manipulate their hive skill it makes it harder to use the info for team balancing.

    People like having a number that they can track as it goes up and down. We should add a visible competitive ranking which you would be able to raise slowly. It would be able to be used as a status symbol rather than a balancing factor.

    Hive skill values can be used as a competitive ranking or as a progression system. Just because it can doesn't mean it is good at it. Hive's purpose and real strength is in its ability to balance teams. UWE has plans to introduce a real competitive ranking and a real progression system. Hive is separate from those plans.


    A lot of your comment responds to this one that I have quoted, which is simple disagreement. The interesting part is when you say bronze/silver/gold it almost sounds like you are making my case for me. People try to use the numeric values as a progression system and or as a competitive ranking. Hive can and does serve those functions, but it does it poorly. I often refer to LoL's MMR when people say NS2's hive sucks and should be KDR based, because LoL's system is not all that different. Rockstar games shows the skill information differently though, and I think that is much better.

    I was never a LoL player so I could be absolutely wrong here, but bear with me. LoL does give and show players a similar number to hive skill called LSS(LoLSkillScore). I have never seen anyone who plays LoL talk about their LSS, I instead see people like yourself talk about the competitive rankings like bronze/silver/gold. I might not hear about it because I was never apart of that community. I would argue that since the layman average person talking about skill in league of legends uses the competitive ranks bronze/silver/gold when referring to skill, that LSS is not as important in the zeitgeist as competitive ranks.

    NS2 only has hive skill. It doesn't have a progression system or a competitive ranking. UWE plans to add these (eventually/hopefully) but we don't have those right now. Hive skill or LSS is a number that that is hard to understand what it means, and what it does. Hive skill is noisy in that it moves around a lot, while a competitive rank would not.

    Despite having a similar system and skill number (LSS), LoL appears to convey that information to us better. For example a LoL leaderboard puts the LSS as the last thing you read. NS2 and Hive have always put the skill value first and upfront. This was true on the old hive website, and it is true on the fan made website. Hive is put first because people don't have a competitive ranking to look at instead. This isn't @morrolan's fault. He is just giving the people what they want.

    I have posted this a number of times before, but I made up some skill ranks one day just to see what they would look like. Click on the image to see it.
    unknown.png

    We could easily change that to LoL like ranks where every 3 ranks you have a new tier. For example Hive skill's of 0 - 800 would be Bronze, Hive skills 801-1200 would be silver, etc. Or whichever brackets worked better.


    When it comes down to it though, still think the same as I did when I made that post I quoted.
    Nordic wrote: »
    I do agree it should be hidden, but I also think server operators have the right to show it if they want to.
    Post edited by Nordic on
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • BlrgBlrg Join Date: 2013-09-01 Member: 187580Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 153 Advanced user
    edited March 2018
    Nordic wrote: »
    How far did you read into the thread I linked? I will quote myself.

    When I wrote my post I had not seen your link or the other thread. My bad.
    But anyways there isn't anything new in there. It is the same that has been discussed countless times.

    It just annoys me (my bad again) the sentence "it doesn't need to be visible".
    The only reason some people want to hide it is because it offends their pride. Not because it isn't useful.
    Absolutely any other kind of useful ranking would offend them in the same way
    Nordic wrote: »
    I was never a LoL player so I could be absolutely wrong here, but bear with me. LoL does give and show players a similar number to hive skill called LSS(LoLSkillScore). I have never seen anyone who plays LoL talk about their LSS, I instead see people like yourself talk about the competitive rankings like bronze/silver/gold. I might not hear about it because I was never apart of that community. I would argue that since the layman average person talking about skill in league of legends uses the competitive ranks bronze/silver/gold when referring to skill, that LSS is not as important in the zeitgeist as competitive ranks.

    I'm not expert in lol. As far as I know, LSS is not done by the developers of lol. It is the equivalent as if in our community someone looked at the list of played games and the winrate of every player with each individual lifeform to make a list of the best players for each lifeform

    The official ranking though with bronze/silver/etc works pretty similar to hiveskill, the only significant difference being that in ns2 it is entirely numerical and in lol they have metal+division+league points (for example: Silver II 55LP)

    You go up or down exclusively depending on winrate. Your skill is visible in your public profile. And it is the same but with a badge+2 numbers (yeah super easy to understand...)

    Nordic wrote: »
    NS2 only has hive skill. It doesn't have a progression system or a competitive ranking. UWE plans to add these (eventually/hopefully) but we don't have those right now.
    Makes no sense to hide hiveskill ONLY because MAYBE at some point during the next few YEARS they will implement something diferent (caps used only for emphasis).

    (And especially because the people that complains now, they will complain the same with any other ranking. Unless you make somthing as stupid and useless as our Leveling system)
    Nordic wrote: »
    Hive skill or LSS is a number that that is hard to understand what it means, and what it does. Hive skill is noisy in that it moves around a lot, while a competitive rank would not.

    If your problem is the number moving too much you can remove one or two significant figures when you show the numbers, converting a 1345 hiveskill to 1300 and a 2687 to 2700

    About being "too complicated"... If you dare to tell me that understanding that 2524 is higher that 1768 I call that bullshit

    In fricking lol it is really confusing to understand if you don't read it somewhere else. If you don't believe me tell me without looking:
    - what is better Gold III or Gold V ?
    - what is better Diamond or Platinum?
    - what is better Master or Challenger?
    - how many LPs you need to go from Silver II to the next division?


    As a final note I want to add one last thing.
    I highly appreciate the work of our beloved developers, modders and community contributors.
    But I honestly feel bad for them wasting their talent and time creating a "progression system" for a game with these low numbers. At this point this is clearly a waste of their time.
    We will never have enough players to be able to have matchmaking with people of our own rank unless you make a silly schedule on the forums for when everyone should play...

    But then again, the only reason to develop ns2 is love. Player numbers will never raise and the cost of development it is certainly not justified for any other reason


    You like figures, here is mine:
    z01dn9lu5osx.jpg
    The "weird 13th month is because I like to see the january of the following year. Since January is always the month with the larger playerbase

    My point being that we shouldn't be removing the tools that we have just because maybe they will implement a better system in the future... Among other things because they probably shouldn't waste time in this.

    And because what we have, hiveskill, is esentially the SAME that every other game has



    EDIT:
    Nordic wrote: »
    I have posted this a number of times before, but I made up some skill ranks one day just to see what they would look like
    I don't understand in what universe hiveskill is so dangerous and bad that must be hiden... and yet a badge indicating exactly the same (although with less significant figures) it is ok to show. The same people complaining now they will complain the same. Because they will complain that they are bronze after 2k hours played and never got to silver.
    Let me be blunt here again: people only complain because they don't want to be told by the game that they are bad. They want to think that they are right with their bad calls and that the fault is always of their teamates
    skav2
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    edited March 2018
    Blrg wrote: »
    The only reason some people want to hide it is because it offends their pride. Not because it isn't useful.
    If your problem is the number moving too much you can remove one or two significant figures when you show the numbers, converting a 1345 hiveskill to 1300 and a 2687 to 2700
    My reason for wanting to hide hive skill has nothing to do with my skill value or my pride. I actually wish I was lower skilled, but that is besides the point.

    These are my problems with visible hive skill, but you have already read these at least twice now. I am stating these again to focus the discussion.
    Nordic wrote: »
    • Showing hive skill highlights it's use as an individual skill metric, and distracts from its use as a team balancing system. Hive skill values are a representation of a players likelihood of winning, which reflects skill, but does not define it. A visible hive skill often causes players to put more value into skill values than they should.
    • Showing hive skill actually creates distrust in the system. Faults in the system are always more noticeable and memorable. Hive skill values may reflect skill value, but they lack context, allowing players to perceive faults where there might be none. Players will see a player with excellent mechanical skill getting many kills, but still has a low hive skill. It is not easy to understand that although this player has high mechanical skill, he loses often. This is assuming the hive skill is even significant, and it may not be. Hive skill values are now significant after 90 games on average.
    • Hive skill values used as a skill progression system creates a metagame where players only play to increase the number. For these players it highlights the loss more, making it feel worse. Since hive skill values is built on team performance, it becomes easier to blame the team for the loss. A visible hive skill can easily increase toxic behavior. Here is an example of this metagame, and another.

    Blrg wrote: »
    Absolutely any other kind of useful ranking would offend them in the same way
    ...
    I don't understand in what universe hive skill is so dangerous and bad that must be hidden... and yet a badge indicating exactly the same (although with less significant figures) it is ok to show. The same people complaining now they will complain the same. Because they will complain that they are bronze after 2k hours played and never got to silver.
    Let me be blunt here again: people only complain because they don't want to be told by the game that they are bad. They want to think that they are right with their bad calls and that the fault is always of their teammates
    I do not doubt the prevalence of the Dunning-Kruger effect. People will always complain about something. All three of my reasons for wanting to hide hive skill revolve around people trying to use hive for something it is not. My desire is not to totally hide all skill information, but make its consumption not as negative. Maybe it is not so self-evident as to why I think the three points are negative. It is about the volatility of the hive skill value.

    Blrg wrote: »
    About being "too complicated"... If you dare to tell me that understanding that 2524 is higher that 1768 I call that bullshit
    It is easy to understand that 2254 is greater than 1768, but people put far too much important on what the number means. "Oh no my skill value went down by 10." People don't understand that a players hive skill oscillates by design. In the picture below is a great example of that oscillation trending around a learned value. It is a people see the tree's but not the forest sort of thing.
    unknown.png


    Or the two links in my third point listed above where people become obsessed with the number. I am not naive enough that I think we can make people not care anymore. Hive skill is a volatile number. People try to use it as a competitive ranking, which is sort of fills that role. In my opinion the volatility of the hive skill makes it a poor competitive ranking. The volatility also makes it a poor progression system. I hear so many people complain about losing a small amount like 10 hive skill value, which it reality means almost nothing.

    What I really want is to hide that volatility. You can do that by hiding hive skill or showing players skill information that is more stable. There are many ways you could do that. You could literally divide hive skill values by 100 and keep the decimals in the hive backend You could show LoL like ranks. There are so many ways to show players less volatile skill information. Why does LoL show bronze-diamond ranks rather than the number like NS2 does?

    While I think showing the volatility is undesirable, the volatility is somewhat essential in the design of the system. People seem to think hive skill is akin to XP, and may not know or understand that it is a moving target based on statistics. We can't expect players to understand how hive skill works. Why should we show players the minutia if it creates undeserved distrust in the system?

    Blrg wrote: »
    My point being that we shouldn't be removing the tools that we have just because maybe they will implement a better system in the future
    I personally think it is of greater value to hide hive skill entirely than to share that volatility, but that is only my opinion even if unpopular.

    Blrg wrote: »
    Makes no sense to hide hiveskill ONLY because MAYBE at some point during the next few YEARS they will implement something diferent (caps used only for emphasis).
    ...
    As a final note I want to add one last thing.
    I highly appreciate the work of our beloved developers, modders and community contributors.
    But I honestly feel bad for them wasting their talent and time creating a "progression system" for a game with these low numbers. At this point this is clearly a waste of their time.
    We will never have enough players to be able to have matchmaking with people of our own rank unless you make a silly schedule on the forums for when everyone should play...

    But then again, the only reason to develop ns2 is love. Player numbers will never raise and the cost of development it is certainly not justified for any other reason
    ...
    ... Among other things because they probably shouldn't waste time in this
    Even though I am writing long posts on this subject, I do agree there are far better things UWE could be working on for NS2, or outside of NS2. UWE does have a competitive ranking planned, and some kind of separate progression system for rookies. They are near the very end of their long term road map for a reason. I am happy they are even working on NS2 at all. The whole reason I commented about hiding hive skill here is because it would solve the caveat mentioned in the OP.
    Post edited by Nordic on
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • BlrgBlrg Join Date: 2013-09-01 Member: 187580Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 153 Advanced user
    Yes I have read your arguments several times because I respect you.
    My argument is that your points could be applied to absolutely any other game. And yet all of them show the number.
    And if those points are really a problem for you, they will never be solved with any other imaginable system

    And yes, having the highest hiveskill doesn't mean that you are the best player in the game (nor does it mean it in any other game), but it certainly means that you are one of the best players
    Nordic wrote: »
    Why does LoL show bronze-diamond ranks rather than the number like NS2 does?
    Again, it doesn't. LoL show a number that decreases and increases after each game. It is called league points and mark your position inside your division. So don't say that LoL system works because they also add a badge. Quoting myself:
    Blrg wrote: »
    The official ranking though with bronze/silver/etc works pretty similar to hiveskill, the only significant difference being that in ns2 it is entirely numerical and in lol they have metal+division+league points (for example: Silver II 55LP)
    The league points go from 0 to 100 in your division. And go up and down after each win/loss
    So it is exactly the same, but they add a shiny badge
    Nordic wrote: »
    "Oh no my skill value went down by 10."
    you have the same in LoL.

    The volatility of the system is not about losing 10 points. Trying to protect people from a 10 points loss it is something you shouldn't do. In absolutely any other game you lose points after a lost game. And you should. Only the hard carry can feel bad about it. But he lost, and the systems needs to show it.
    You don't need to patronize people by protecting them to see that they lost points after a lost game.

    I do agree though in the volatility during the first games. That figure was really interesting. And that is the reason why any other game hides your skill for the first 10 ranked games. If that is a problem you have a simple solution that apply only to rookies and nobody else:

    - You show any player with less than 50 or 100 rounds as green and you hide their skill

    Problem solved
    But don't hide everyone else's skill.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    To wrap this back around, what do you think of Adam as posted in the OP?
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • BlrgBlrg Join Date: 2013-09-01 Member: 187580Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 153 Advanced user
    Statistically speaking I'm sure that it is better.

    But that certainly will make people angrier. Because it will seem an erratic system that substracts you skill points even when you win a round that you hard carried and yet other people that lost doing nothing increased their elo.
    For god sakes people still argue that skill should be related to k/d ratio... good luck explaining this new system to them lol

    And if your solution again is "but we will hide the skill" my answer is "no, because the minimal advantage of a slightly better system doesn't make up for all the advantages of seeing people's individual skill level"
    Nordic
  • skav2skav2 Join Date: 2007-05-28 Member: 61037Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 190 Advanced user
    To be honest I dont like hiding the Hive Skill but would rather it be grouped up so you dont just look at the numbers. I know this is a different conversation than OP's but I like the idea of grouped numbers - think of Ensign -> Fleet Admiral rankings. For example Lieutenant = 1300-1700 HS. If you are in that group then you are expected to play similarly instead of focusing on the HS difference. I cant beleive how many people say "WE LOST BECAUSE OF THE 200 HS DIFFERENCE!". But it would still use the HS to make teams as even as possible.

    @BeigeAlert - That sounds promising but Im not technical enough to know if that will be a huge change or not.
  • NousWandererNousWanderer Join Date: 2010-05-07 Member: 71646Members Posts: 258 Advanced user
    @BeigeAlert How difficult would it be to accomplish proposal #1 in the OP?
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,829 admin
    I have no idea, that's a question for @McGlaspie .
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