/me reports Blue Ghost to the 'f4' police <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<!--QuoteBegin--BlueGhost+Jan 18 2003, 12:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BlueGhost @ Jan 18 2003, 12:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You cannot afford to do this on server with less than 9 players on a team...
...WOL isn't your problem, your problem is the resource system favouring marines in large games added to the fact that the spawn que is allowing the marines to ALWAYS escape their base at the start...
...6vs6 spamming CC's is NOT an option as the res flow just wouldn't allow them to be replaced fast enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is true - it can only happen with the higher resource flow on large servers. It's also true that in large games, the aliens are handicapped by their respawn speed. That's not the issue here, though.
The issue is the so-called "CC WOL." Whether or not it only happens on large servers, it DOES HAPPEN. The fact that it can happen at all is a problem - you don't not fix something because it only happens on some servers.
Playtesting experience showed that both teams need more resources when there are more players - that's why the current system, which increases RP flow as team size increases, was implemented. That's also why simply altering the resource system won't work; large teams need more resources. The other option, then, is to alter the CC itself - namely, raise the cost, and perhaps introduce a radius-based restriction. It will certainly still allow expansions with a new CC, but it will also make sure the CC stays in the role it's supposed to stay in - a vital outpost.
In old playtests - up until shortly before RC1 - the CC could be repaired with a welder if it was destroyed, paralleling the aliens' ability to rebuild destroyed hives. This was removed because an invisible but rebuildable CC was a bit too odd - it didn't quite make sense - for Flayra, and he didn't know how to alter it to be more intuitive. I wouldn't mind looking at this idea again in the future, and making CCs significantly less durable.
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In old playtests - up until shortly before RC1 - the CC could be repaired with a welder if it was destroyed, paralleling the aliens' ability to rebuild destroyed hives. This was removed because an invisible but rebuildable CC was a bit too odd - it didn't quite make sense - for Flayra, and he didn't know how to alter it to be more intuitive. I wouldn't mind looking at this idea again in the future, and making CCs significantly less durable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about a pile of rubble which could be "repaired" into a temporary CC that only allowed another CC to be created and then it disappeared?
Why does everyone want to limit every aspect of the game? Is it because a particular tactic beats them? I'm for anything goes as long as there is a reasonable drawback, in this case the cc's cost 30 rps. Part of the fun of this game is being able to build structures wherever you want.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--coil+Jan 17 2003, 03:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Jan 17 2003, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Those marines are NOT dying very often; the resource flow from a single RT is more than enough to build a new CC every 1-2 minutes, probably even faster. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm.. Coronas is a 12v12 servers. With one resnode, the marine income is 37,6 resources per minute if they hold only one res node. Hmm... 10000 hits, fades can fire off acid 5 acid rockets every 13 seconds, about (5 seconds to fire five,then wait 8 seconds to refill adren), say about 20 per minute or so. That's 1200 hitpoints in damage. With five fades fireing, it will take about 1.5 minutes to take down a CC. Draw your own conclusion.
Now, upping the cost of the CC will help some, but as with everything, upping the cost will screw over small marine teams while not affecting large marine teams much. The marine resource model is just too dependent on teamsize, IMO. Their income needs to be flattened a bit, as I said in <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=18081&hl=large+server,and,resources' target='_blank'>this article</a>.
Thus, upping the cost means that the strategy will only make sense for larger servers, while making smaller marine teams suffer from an inability to switch their base to the second hive.
I have the perfect solution to this little exploit. taking into consideration of all the arguments in this post, rasing the RP wouldnt need to be done. the best idea and the simplest will be to simply limit how close a CC can be built next to a wall. make it enough for afew of the alien classes to slip through, also limit how close a CC can be built next to another CC. this is a bullet proof idea and keeps the WOL at bay from blocking ANY passage
now I see the arguments that the alien WOL seems to be a problem, well considering that the alien buildings have low HP and can easly be over thrown with some grenades I dont see what the problem is? sure they're annouying in the start of the match but it is all part of the stratigy, in time they can easly be over thrown by even one marine with a heavy machine gun (I know this because I have taken afew of these walls down myself) so that simple change should balance out that little problem.... if the developers even read this... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--RpTheHotrod+Jan 17 2003, 10:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RpTheHotrod @ Jan 17 2003, 10:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't get why people complain about a marine wall of lame, when the aliens do it too, but far more cheaper, thus, far more often.
Limit every alien chamber building!!! Like maybe 5 per game...since they are so cheap.
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Marines got the siege gun to counter walls of lame. A wall slows down and keeps rogue marines in check. But if they're determined they can take it down in 2-3 minutes - not to mention if they carry nades. Walls of lame dont even get the total hp that a cc has unless the gorge invests some 100 rps innit.
People are making this thing too complicated, its simple, just limit it too 3 CC's. I don't even mind that much if Marines want to block 1 entrance with 2 comm chairs, since every area in the game has atleast 2 entrances.
But, Mat, I assure you, the math may look like it wouldn't be a problem for Fades to take down the CC's. Let me assure you, with 3-4 marines firing grendes from behind these CC's it quickly stops Fades from just sitting there and firing rockets non-stop.
Like, I was playing a game yesterday. And commander threw 3 Comm chairs into a very small vent right inside the Alien hive, 1 right behind the other. Of course we could have 1 (possibly 2, but not sure they would have fit) skull sitting there for god knows how long chomping away at these things, but than thats one person thats needed elsewhere,
-M Its not like limiting the CC's would have some adverse effect on Marine/alien balance. The tactic didn't exist until somone realized how effective it was, and people started exploting the **** out of it. But yes. Maybe I'll just play on some smaller servers, anyone have any good ones?
ORD- Mat was agreeing with you. His math shows that 5 Fades would need 1.5 minute to take down a CC with Acid Rockets alone, and that the Marines could build one every minute (with a few res to spare) even if they only have one Res node.
Of course, if you have a few more Fades, it's possible unless they get whacked by Grenades. Throw in a single Marine sitting behind the chair with a welder though, and it becomes almost indestructable. Anyway... I think if this is becoming a problem (I wouldn't know... I've NEVER seen this tactic used) that the easiest fix is to cap the number of Comm chairs. 3 or 4 is plenty of allowance for any valid reasons I can think of.
dont start with the "OC around Phase gates" if you werent so lazy to read the whole thread you would have known that a Commander could just recycle the protal and build another elsewhere
not to mention OC are EXTREAMLY easy to avoid damage and have real low HP so they are NOT in anyway a problem thus making your post VOID plus if your team cant even take out afew lousy level 1 gourges, then what hope would you have?
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Jan 18 2003, 06:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Jan 18 2003, 06:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How is this any differnt from gorges running into the marine base and putting chambers everywhere, or putting chambers on phase gates or IPs?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Re: chambering in Marine Base-- 1) Two OCs equal the cost of a CC, but must be built individually and have far fewer hitpoints. 2) Building chambers in the Marine Spawn means you are under constant fire, while a commander can turtle behind CCs long before his base is under direct attack. 3) A commander can use his entire team's stock of RPs; the gorge only has access to his personal quota. 4) Building chambers in the Marine Start is not only an aggressive move; it's *extremely* aggressive. Turtling is the polar opposite.
Re: chambering a phase gate-- If a gorge can reach a phase and drop a chamber on it, the marines have already lost that outpost. The commander's best option is to recycle the gate and try another tactic.
Re: chambering an infantry portal-- Again, if a gorge can reach an IP and drop a chamber on it, the alien team has already overrun the marine base. _______
I'm not personally a fan of any of these tactics. However, I have no issue with using webbing to the same effect. To look in particular at the tactic of chambering in the marine spawn... yes, it sucks... but if the aliens have the RPs to go all gorge/lerk and drop a huge # of OCs in the marine spawn, it seems to me they already have the upper hand in the match. Putting a Gorge on the front lines as your primary "attacker" is always risky, and offensive chambering can be a very costly tactic if it fails. CC bunkering, however, has a very low probability of failure - again, due to the extremely high hitpoint/RP ratio of a CC as compared to any other building.
Comments
...WOL isn't your problem, your problem is the resource system favouring marines in large games added to the fact that the spawn que is allowing the marines to ALWAYS escape their base at the start...
...6vs6 spamming CC's is NOT an option as the res flow just wouldn't allow them to be replaced fast enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is true - it can only happen with the higher resource flow on large servers. It's also true that in large games, the aliens are handicapped by their respawn speed. That's not the issue here, though.
The issue is the so-called "CC WOL." Whether or not it only happens on large servers, it DOES HAPPEN. The fact that it can happen at all is a problem - you don't not fix something because it only happens on some servers.
Playtesting experience showed that both teams need more resources when there are more players - that's why the current system, which increases RP flow as team size increases, was implemented. That's also why simply altering the resource system won't work; large teams need more resources. The other option, then, is to alter the CC itself - namely, raise the cost, and perhaps introduce a radius-based restriction. It will certainly still allow expansions with a new CC, but it will also make sure the CC stays in the role it's supposed to stay in - a vital outpost.
In old playtests - up until shortly before RC1 - the CC could be repaired with a welder if it was destroyed, paralleling the aliens' ability to rebuild destroyed hives. This was removed because an invisible but rebuildable CC was a bit too odd - it didn't quite make sense - for Flayra, and he didn't know how to alter it to be more intuitive. I wouldn't mind looking at this idea again in the future, and making CCs significantly less durable.
In old playtests - up until shortly before RC1 - the CC could be repaired with a welder if it was destroyed, paralleling the aliens' ability to rebuild destroyed hives. This was removed because an invisible but rebuildable CC was a bit too odd - it didn't quite make sense - for Flayra, and he didn't know how to alter it to be more intuitive. I wouldn't mind looking at this idea again in the future, and making CCs significantly less durable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about a pile of rubble which could be "repaired" into a temporary CC that only allowed another CC to be created and then it disappeared?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm.. Coronas is a 12v12 servers. With one resnode, the marine income is 37,6 resources per minute if they hold only one res node. Hmm... 10000 hits, fades can fire off acid 5 acid rockets every 13 seconds, about (5 seconds to fire five,then wait 8 seconds to refill adren), say about 20 per minute or so. That's 1200 hitpoints in damage. With five fades fireing, it will take about 1.5 minutes to take down a CC. Draw your own conclusion.
Now, upping the cost of the CC will help some, but as with everything, upping the cost will screw over small marine teams while not affecting large marine teams much. The marine resource model is just too dependent on teamsize, IMO. Their income needs to be flattened a bit, as I said in <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=18081&hl=large+server,and,resources' target='_blank'>this article</a>.
Thus, upping the cost means that the strategy will only make sense for larger servers, while making smaller marine teams suffer from an inability to switch their base to the second hive.
now I see the arguments that the alien WOL seems to be a problem, well considering that the alien buildings have low HP and can easly be over thrown with some grenades I dont see what the problem is? sure they're annouying in the start of the match but it is all part of the stratigy, in time they can easly be over thrown by even one marine with a heavy machine gun (I know this because I have taken afew of these walls down myself) so that simple change should balance out that little problem.... if the developers even read this... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Limit every alien chamber building!!! Like maybe 5 per game...since they are so cheap.
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines got the siege gun to counter walls of lame. A wall slows down and keeps rogue marines in check. But if they're determined they can take it down in 2-3 minutes - not to mention if they carry nades. Walls of lame dont even get the total hp that a cc has unless the gorge invests some 100 rps innit.
But, Mat, I assure you, the math may look like it wouldn't be a problem for Fades to take down the CC's. Let me assure you, with 3-4 marines firing grendes from behind these CC's it quickly stops Fades from just sitting there and firing rockets non-stop.
Like, I was playing a game yesterday. And commander threw 3 Comm chairs into a very small vent right inside the Alien hive, 1 right behind the other. Of course we could have 1 (possibly 2, but not sure they would have fit) skull sitting there for god knows how long chomping away at these things, but than thats one person thats needed elsewhere,
-M
Its not like limiting the CC's would have some adverse effect on Marine/alien balance. The tactic didn't exist until somone realized how effective it was, and people started exploting the **** out of it. But yes. Maybe I'll just play on some smaller servers, anyone have any good ones?
Of course, if you have a few more Fades, it's possible unless they get whacked by Grenades. Throw in a single Marine sitting behind the chair with a welder though, and it becomes almost indestructable. Anyway... I think if this is becoming a problem (I wouldn't know... I've NEVER seen this tactic used) that the easiest fix is to cap the number of Comm chairs. 3 or 4 is plenty of allowance for any valid reasons I can think of.
not to mention OC are EXTREAMLY easy to avoid damage and have real low HP so they are NOT in anyway a problem thus making your post VOID
plus if your team cant even take out afew lousy level 1 gourges, then what hope would you have?
Re: chambering in Marine Base--
1) Two OCs equal the cost of a CC, but must be built individually and have far fewer hitpoints.
2) Building chambers in the Marine Spawn means you are under constant fire, while a commander can turtle behind CCs long before his base is under direct attack.
3) A commander can use his entire team's stock of RPs; the gorge only has access to his personal quota.
4) Building chambers in the Marine Start is not only an aggressive move; it's *extremely* aggressive. Turtling is the polar opposite.
Re: chambering a phase gate--
If a gorge can reach a phase and drop a chamber on it, the marines have already lost that outpost. The commander's best option is to recycle the gate and try another tactic.
Re: chambering an infantry portal--
Again, if a gorge can reach an IP and drop a chamber on it, the alien team has already overrun the marine base.
_______
I'm not personally a fan of any of these tactics. However, I have no issue with using webbing to the same effect. To look in particular at the tactic of chambering in the marine spawn... yes, it sucks... but if the aliens have the RPs to go all gorge/lerk and drop a huge # of OCs in the marine spawn, it seems to me they already have the upper hand in the match. Putting a Gorge on the front lines as your primary "attacker" is always risky, and offensive chambering can be a very costly tactic if it fails. CC bunkering, however, has a very low probability of failure - again, due to the extremely high hitpoint/RP ratio of a CC as compared to any other building.