Can Siege Truly Be Balanced?
The_Seer
Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5250Members
Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5250Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Hera exploitation.</div> On Hera, the Marines did something odd, they totally ditched their first base, then went straight to Processing. Our Hive wasn't in Delta or else it might not have worked, but this strategy is flawless about 2/3rs of the time. If they get a siege up in Processing, then all they have to do is sit back, and wait for their one resource tower to get them enough stuff to slowly take over the map. Sounds stupid, doesn't it? Our team was bashing them for over an hour, and we couldn't do a single thing to them, everytime we took out a factory, they re-built it, they usually always had at least two. So all we had was Archiving, we couldn't build anything in Delta or Ventilation.
There was something odd, somehow their once resource tower made all of them always have a grenade launcher and a welder, and always enough left over to rebuild turrets and Turret Factories. Without fades, their plethora of turrets just pwned.
The only defense I know is to go straight for Processing to build. Psh.
There was something odd, somehow their once resource tower made all of them always have a grenade launcher and a welder, and always enough left over to rebuild turrets and Turret Factories. Without fades, their plethora of turrets just pwned.
The only defense I know is to go straight for Processing to build. Psh.
Comments
yay! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
both times i was on the winning team <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> which proves its beatable, but not easily
also there was something you could do about it, are you telling me you had 1 hour before they sieged, and you didnt get vent hive?
remember they cant siege it from processing and if they were camped in their base it should have been free for the taking
Processing WAS their base so yes, they could just sit there and respawn and respawn and respawn.
A. Not communicating
B. Not looking for siege
C. Your team sucking and not be able to take the marines out
end of story.
And another thing that would be useful, is if you cant physically WALK to an area, you shouldnt be able to build there...
A. Not communicating
B. Not looking for siege
C. Your team sucking and not be able to take the marines out<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously you've never faced this strategy because your comments have nothing to do with the situation being discussed.. Please don't just give generic answers whenever you don't have anything useful to say.
No, Yes.
No, this problem will not be fixed since siege range is still big enough to siege both hives at once with one siege gun on hera. Yes, the siege range is a bit smaller.
It is still possible to beat this strategy (hard but possible) since siege will only work once the hive is fully build. So you build the hive and all go fade in the few seconds it is alive.
Now to the original question, "can siege truly be balanced".
I would have answered that i seriously doubt it before 1.04 but i think they found an awesome way to do it with this spotting thingy. The hera example is not a problem with siege gun balance but with the map itself. For the future i hope mappers will place hives with at least twice the range of a siege gun distance from each other and such problems will not happen again. For hera i see nothing that can be done against it other than remapping so better learn to live with it.
A. Not communicating
B. Not looking for siege
C. Your team sucking and not be able to take the marines out<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously you've never faced this strategy because your comments have nothing to do with the situation being discussed.. Please don't just give generic answers whenever you don't have anything useful to say.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously, you've never played on a well organized alien team. 5+ skulks making a one or two <b>organized</b> rushes can take out almost any marine expansion.
The real problem I see is the difficulty aliens have *securing* processing. When I play alien on this map, the first thing i do (if i am gorge) is build OTs in processing. This will hold off the marines for a while. The real trouble comes when they siege processing from Cargo Storage which is right next to their base. Hopefully you have a second hive by the time this happens.
Many gorges seem to have a real problem understanding that they need to secure siege areas before building 10 OTs directly under the hive <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
General Cargo Storage and Holo-room give the marines a total of 4 easy to defend res nodes, throw in reception (if you put a phase there as a staging point for holo-room it effectivly held) the marines can out-tech the aliens assuming they're half competent.
Note, do not try this with newbs as they'll go 'woo HA/HMG thats what happend when you win!!! w00t lets go get me some kills. They then proceed to wonder off and get ganked by lurks/fades *sigh*
As for processing you really shouldn't lose this position, even if the marines take their INTIRE force and re-locate spawns there you can rapidly nock down all but 1 of their res nodes which will make turrets expensive (especially the 2 siege guns required)
The main point is that processing has 6 entrances into the marine siege location, basically if it becomes obvious they are doing a relocate to processing you should immidiately get 3 def chambers (what use is res if you cannot.... build)
While doing this you should have all your skulks get in position in datacore, in the vent and in processing its self.
Befor they get any kind of propper resistance there (ie 3+ spawns and a com chair and a Tf and 4 turrets)
You ALL pour in kill them kill their spawns, 4 skulks on a spawn point and it won't last an eye-blink.
If they've gone for a phase rush its even easer cos they'll have to have people at base.
Where this goes wrong is you often:
1) Don't have coordinated skulks, I rambo, I play alien, WTF am I gonna listen to YOU for.
2) You don't spot the incursion into processing till too late, or someone spots it but fails to communicate.
3) You're 3 gorge players are busy sitting under the 1st hive singing to each other or something <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
BlueGhost
Besides the fact that there are four entry points...make it even harder to defend, and then they get jetpacks...
When gorges learn to defend further away from the hive my job as skulk/lerk/fade will be easier <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
When I gorge, I try to defend outwards anyway <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
Any half decent marine team can accomplish this, and the only defence for the aliens is if they secure processing first thing in the match. Even then it can be tough since the mariens can push into it from the holoroom. The big problem is that most aliens seem unaware of the importance of processing. The real unfortunate part is that it's not nearly as strategically important the the aliens. The only real reason to fortify it is to keep the marines out, since it's just a resource nozzle otherwise.
The new reduced range for seiges won't help, since the difficulty isn't one siege getting two hives, it's one TF getting two hives. Any map with a spot like this is flawed. NO map should have a single location whose ownership decides the game.
South loop on eclipse is similar, although to a lesser extent. If you build a TF in the right place you can build seiges to hit both Comp core and maintenence. I've won several times as com on eclipse by taking maint first, and then focusing all my attention on south loop. If the marines can hold south loop, they win the game.
That can be tough to do (I've been on aliens before where we've been able to take south loop from the marines), but if they can, the mariens win. They just creep the turrets out around the corner and build the sieges, and that's it. I've seen some brutal fade vs. light marine battles in that little corner near comp core (from above) where the aliens do everything they can, but still lose the hive.
Oh, by the way I'm not sure if the new seige ranges of 1.04 will still be able to accomplish the two hive seige point in eclipse.
ANYWAY (sorry for the ramble) the new LOS rules for seiges should go a ways to resolving this issue, but at the base it's map design that's at fault and the only real fix will be a new version of the map.
Rainman
1) The entire marine force is moving together.
2) You have a long way to run to get there too!
3) Whoever said they go gorge and BUILD there is insane. By the time you're done gestating they'll have inf. portals up there. Not to mention that by the time you have res to build there they'll have it fortified.
I've played on quite a lot of good alien teams thank you. Far harder to find a good marine team.
Therefore, having recognized the tactical significance of a location, such as Processing as discussed above, I would suggest that the appropriate response is not the change the way weapons work (such as seige range) or change the map, but rather to apply your tactics in light of the importance of the location. Teams should adapt their tactics to reflect the map and weapon performance. If the marines win by capturing Processing and building a base there, then the aliens should endeavour to prevent this from happening. Any location from which a seige gun can reach two hives is a strategic location, and should be hotly contested.
Rainman's arguement that Processing is important to the Marines but not the the Aliens is incorrect by definition. If a location is important to one team, it is by this very fact important to the other team.
Siege cannons are actually kinda cheap - smash one up along with a turret farm and you don't have to do anything else. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Course not, it's no problem for a well excercised know what they are doing team of skulks. Especially if the skulks are on the ball and know they're going to try that sleazy trick. Skulks regularly take out entire marine spawns, especially when the marines are just as skilled as the skulks. I see it every day on the pub servers. Super skulkers totally lay waste to all marine opposition.
It's not a given.
Sigh! It's a basic problem with the map and sieges. NO location should be close enough of two hives to cover both. IF the map is edited a bit, extending the distance that the two affectd hives are from each other, the problem will be solved. Then the marines can't cheese around in one itty bitty little base but have actually to VENTURE OUT on the battlefield and fight mano y skulko to get two hives locked down.
This strat effectively rewards marine turtling, since they can sit on their fat butts and let res build up while keeping frantic skulk attacks in check unless it's very good skulks vs. not-very good marines. And we dont want turtling do we?
And you wonder why people bash clanners these days? Statements like that is just what makes people decide that clanning is mostly for arrogant people.
There was something odd, somehow their once resource tower made all of them always have a grenade launcher and a welder, and always enough left over to rebuild turrets and Turret Factories. Without fades, their plethora of turrets just pwned.
The only defense I know is to go straight for Processing to build. Psh.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
seer, i was there that game, that was total bad. just bad bad bad bad bad. not cool.