Marine Res Tower Rush
Lord_Requiem
Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9481Members
Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9481Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Major imbalance, very important to fix</div> Simple and effective: Marines rush the first alien res tower while commander spams health for them at the beginning of the game. Aliens can not get another res tower for minimum 10-15 minutes, game is over before it starts. Before you knock it keep in mind I myself have used this strategy and seen it used, there is no real counter, because even if skulks are waiting for marines to show up the marines still have about a 60-70 percent or better chance of killing the res tower before dying, with commander spamming health packs.
Once the tower is down the aliens do not have ANY chance to win the game, even if the commander is incompetant. The marines would have to all go afk for 15 minutes. :/
Once the tower is down the aliens do not have ANY chance to win the game, even if the commander is incompetant. The marines would have to all go afk for 15 minutes. :/
Comments
Maybe on maps where the res is outside the hive, like stab monitoring. Or possibly that the res node is just that much weaker that the hive it becomes possible?
Of course this is just one more way that rushing can ruin an otherwise good game.
Regards,
Savant
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Simple and effective: Marines rush the first alien res tower while commander spams health for them at the beginning of the game. Aliens can not get another res tower for minimum 10-15 minutes, game is over before it starts. Before you knock it keep in mind I myself have used this strategy and seen it used, there is no real counter, because even if skulks are waiting for marines to show up the marines still have about a 60-70 percent or better chance of killing the res tower before dying, with commander spamming health packs.
Once the tower is down the aliens do not have ANY chance to win the game, even if the commander is incompetant. The marines would have to all go afk for 15 minutes. :/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even when a commander is spamming medpacks like a nut, I still kill them just as easily.
Cool
I can't find actual numbers for the Kharaa RT, but I presume that it is identical to the Marine RT, which by the manual has 5,000 hitpoints. A single clip of LMG does 500; that's 10 clips to kill a tower.
Now, that seems like a pretty short amount of time, but the argument has some holes/counter-arguments.
First of all, any alien in the room where the RT is under attack is (a) likely to kill one marine before he's noticed, and (b) likely to draw a lot of fire away from the tower, prolonging its life expectancy.
Secondly, the aliens are SUPPOSED to be on the defensive to start with. They have a handicap in resources, attack power (due to the range element), and longevity until they get an upgrade chamber. Their #1 priority should be
a) know where the marines are
b) know what they're up to
c) make (b) as difficult as possible
This starts, logically, with a quick trip to the Marine Start - thus running into a marine team heading towards your hive. Any marine troupe heading out en masse to kill the aliens' first RT is going to be seen by all but the most incapable alien team, and any alien who knows the basics of this game will call out a warning to his teammates if he sees 3+ marines going somewhere - especially if they're heading towards the hive.
The aliens' job at the game start is to harass the marines - and if the marines are attacking the alien RT, that's where the aliens should be! I would say that every alien except one (the gorge - MAYBE two, the other being a long-range scout) should be actively engaging the marines. Additionally, if the resource tower takes damage, the gorge needs to go heal it once the attack lulls! Healing Spray isn't just for players. Even if the marines are approaching in waves, there ought to be time for the gorge to heal the tower at least somewhat.
So yes, it's a tactic. But it's one that has a counter, and can be prevented. Nothing needs nerfing.
Yet, at the same time, it's partially the alien's fault for letting the marines get away with it.
If your skulks have any talent at all they should able to take down any marines silly enough to fire at their RT instead of the skulks.
If your gorge has a working synapse in his xenobrain, he'll heal the resource up between marine assaults.
If all else fails, fine. You want to send all your marines to rush and eat my resources? No problem, I'll send all my Skulks to eat your infantry spawns. Then double back and eat whatever remaining marines are milling around our hive.
If you lose your starting res tower, you deserve the penalty that goes along with it. I don't think this is an imbalance at all.
Oh, and the aliens Resource Collectors have 3,000 hit points, where the marines collectors have 5,000. This was because the marines have a harder time holding resource collectors than aliens.
I've seen it and I've done it with success on Eclipse, Caged and Nothing. The marines didnt expect it so they had not protected the in-base res. Some was on guard, we killed them and just went RP munching. Once down it really hit the marines so hard they never recovered.
Now in the next game we played no one fell for it and they were very diligent about not sending too many out on the map too fast <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I haven't seen this, so I can't really comment on it, except to say if they keep the increase in healing from the hive that should help a lot ...
Just out of interest, why is it harder for Marines to hold on to resource towers? I'm not saying it isn't, I just have never heard any reasoning why.
Anyways. Im pretty sure he means the first RT to be BUILT, which every alien gorge knows takes insanely long(unless team is small). If the marines get the gorge as well, I can see that a 15 minute wait for the next is a plausible estimate...
Aliens roam the maps at much higher speeds and can go places throug vents where marines cant. They simply are "all over the place". I often run by an unprotected res nozzle and kill it in serenity,
Aliens have hivesight and thus they can see if one of their friends has spotted something on the map that needs chomping.
The autonomous gorge can go silently about his own business building res while the skulks are harassing marines.
The marines need to protect their base from skulks, thus tying up hands in early game, or res. They also are much less aware of events elsewhere on the map. it also takes a lot of time to take down an alien res tower unless you got a welder at hand. Skulk chomps make fairly quick work of a marine RP even if alone.
A tactic I've seen used by marines - I've advocated it mysellf but it needs very good shots on the marine team - is to assign marines for res duty. They build a res and hides in a corner, guarding it against wandering skulks. It is a gamble that CAN pay off.
It sounds like a great strategy for public servers, where at best usually half the team is listening to eachother and most of them are like wandering nomads... but I really doubt this could be pulled off in a skillful match. It's just too gung ho and risky =P Besides, even if a bunch of marines did go to the RT, couldn't all the skulks just rush the marine start right off? Poof! Bye bye IPs, byebye comm chair...
The Hive counts as a Resource Tower? My sound sort of funny, but I think it sort of fits the 'outpost' ability of the hive (Spawn point, strong, heals nearby players and structures).
Reminds me of a Bash.org quote:
I beat the Internet
The end guy was hard...
Isn't this just another variety of the common theme: "Hey, if they kill us early - we lose!" Yes.
If all your res nodes are dead, you lose.
If all your hives are dead, you lose.
If all your IPs are dead, you lose.
If all your CCs are dead, you lose.
etc.
You win by preventing these things from happening.
I've seen it and I've done it with success on Eclipse, Caged and Nothing. The marines didnt expect it so they had not protected the in-base res. Some was on guard, we killed them and just went RP munching. Once down it really hit the marines so hard they never recovered.
Now in the next game we played no one fell for it and they were very diligent about not sending too many out on the map too fast <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i posted this already but, it's a good tactic:
Also, i have found out that:
marines are faster if they use their resources better.. like OAZE (a clanmate) just grabs more nodes with the starting 100res.. he'll have like 2 nodes while the aliens are just now getting 1 node up... but if marines build like an OBs, armory, 2 IPs, etc. they have to WAIT for res to build a node
Oaze's tactic works nearly everytime, unless the aliens are very skilled in rushing together, dodging, etc.
the more res nodes the marines get at the beginning, the faster the upgrades/tech rushes come
Its not easy to balance the game for both, but thats why the devs of NS are getting paid so much. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
talk about a slap in the freaking face ...
NS is about team work. Thats one of the key ingredients. Its not needed <b>as</b> much for aliens, but it's still a pretty big part.
The game is designed so that if you dont play as a team - you lose.
Its not easy to balance the game for both, but thats why the devs of NS are getting paid so much. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think they were PAID. THey did this for free.. so bear with it!
I refuse to believe that this is an exploit, if the other team wants to attack one of your structures, that is fair game. The aliens have the same ability to attack stuctures, it's not like this is an exclusive marine trait.
4x500=2000 Damage x 1 Reload=4000 Whip to handgun and finish
In a big game thats pretty easy to do(Sneak 4 Marines past the skulks as normaly they rush or run off and hide, rare is it they defend the base)
And don't forget the oh so fun Weilder Rush! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->