strong reason? I'd say its rather minor in the overall scope of what the hive gambit gives you. Anyhow you can use it to your advantage, to quickly warp a lot of marines to a location without a phase.
It's nice to have your main base protected by phase/IP's and a hive protected by phase TF. So if you have main base as a hive then you've locked down 2 hives with 1 turret farm. Thats the appeal. If you take a hive like cargo in ns_nothing, it's basically a triple res area and you can spend what you would have spent on turrets, on upgrades instead. I really learned this the other day while playing with some members of a clan (SiD i think). they executed it pretty well. The comm even told all exactly where to stand to defend the base. It was great.
On another note dont forget that you dont have to actually be in the hive to secure it. Just near enough to siege it. To save on RP early on just do periodic marine checks to make sure they aren't building in there and get a siege later.
I can't believe I actually signed up just so I could post back on this topic...
I was playing a few days ago on the redphive beta 1.04c(was it c? some letter near there) server, and out of the 6 or so attempts at relocating the marine base to a hive that I saw(mostly from the marine perspective, but the last one I saw from the kharaa side of things), Not a single one was even CLOSE to achieving marine victory. Now, I should first note that the kharaa had several particularly skilled players on their side, and were more than capable of slaughtering us one on one, or even when marines moved in pairs or as groups of 3...best was seeing a group of 6 marines move out from our base, only a few seconds later to see them ALL get killed in about 4 seconds of fighting by a mob of about 5-7 skulks. So, marines were a little outmatched in the skill department. Still, our commander was decent(aside from doggedly trying the hive-base tactic after it kept getting crushed) and we WERE following his orders as best as possible, even though he complained that we weren't and that was why we kept losing. Now, that all said, let's see how the base relocation gambit faired....
First: someone said that if you build anything at your starting base, it should be at most a single IP so marines killed early can rejoin the fight, and it supposedly makes the aliens think you're still trying to hold your starting base. Sorry, but that's pure gicker. First, when the inevitable skulk rush hits your base and finds virtually no one there, the first thought was "Which hive did they go for?" And any marines that spawn onto that lone IP are SCREWED. I should know, my first game(first of several that all went the exact same way, on ns_eclipse) I spawned in about 15 seconds after the game started, right into a mob of skulks that had been munching the IP. Yay. So, if you're going to use this tactic at all, for the love of GOD don't bother with an IP at your start, because it will just get eaten along with anyone that spawns on it.
Second: ok, fair enough, most starting bases are not a lot easier to defend than most of the hives, but eclipse? 2 entrances, yes, but they're both in the same area, pointing the same way, and anything that can cover one entry can cover both of them. In short, relatively easy to defend. But eclipse command? 2 entry points, both perfect for skulks to rush through, and rather hard for marines to defend well without good turret support. By moving our base there(which our commander did EVERY ROUND) not only do we lose the 30-odd resources of the basic base movement, but also we had to devote most of our remaining resources to defense. Combined with a failed attempt to take the CC hive(lot easier for skulks to rush that one from maintanence than marines from eclipse command, especially when the guys building the phasegate got munched), we ended up being resource poor, defensively unsound, and under near-constant attack. They didn't even need fades for that win.
Once we had tried our relocation trick a couple of times and had it crushed, the kharaa started counting on us to do it again...and sure enough, when the big mob of marines moved out to start a new base, they were ambushed and chewed up pretty well. Not stopped, mind you, but the 4 guys that survived out of 9 or so had a big problem of not being able to build fast enough to get everyone else back into the fight, and so we went down in about 2 minutes, in my case without ever respawning. Point is, if you're going to do this tactic fine, but DON'T EXPECT THEM TO TAKE IT LYING DOWN. do it more than once or twice and the kharaa players WILL expect it. And if that initial rush to take a hive gets beat up real bad, you're really in for a world of hurt.
I played about 4 or 5 rounds on eclipse as a marine, and each time we tried the relocation gambit, and each time we got slaughtered. Eventually the server switched to (bast I think? hives were at engineering, ventilation, and viaduct I think), and after another defeated attempt at relocation(we got viaduct, but our attempt to take and hold engineering failed, so eventually we got overrun by fades) I got random teamed to kharaa. Once again marines tried for a relocation, but their choice(viaduct) happened to be our hive location, so after eating all the attackers we stomped their base a bit before they drove us back out(I guess they had partly built up in their base while we killed the rushers rather than gamble it all on relocation). They tried at different times to relocate to ventilation and engineering, but we kept a few skulks roaming around and communication was good enough that we stomped these attempts. Enter fades, game over.
Now, I'm not trying to totally bash on relocation and say that it never works...but with a not-great marine team and/or a pretty good kharaa team, it's very much a gamble. If it works, you have a decent chance to win, but if it fails -for whatever reason, be it skulks intercepting your relocation group, lack of total team commitment to the gambit, start base being overrun too fast and too easily to keep all those skulks away from your new base, etc- you ARE doomed. I still have yet to see it work or even come CLOSE to working myself, and to my(admitedly rather conservative, cautious) thinking there's just way too many things that can potentially go wrong for it to work on a regular basis, at least on pubs. I'd still like to see it actually work though, because it is a kinda sly plan, and I like those, and most everyone else seems to have positive experiences with it, and I like those too. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
edit: oooh yeah, I forgot about how one time in eclipse our commander fired off a distress beacon and all us dead folk got respawned in our original base, and along the way back to eclipse we lost everyone but me(and I only had like 20 health left) to a single skulk that ran into us and all the OCs they had stacked outside our base. Man was that fun. Moral of the story: if you abandon your original base, DON'T EXPECT DISTRESS BEACON TO SAVE YOUR NEW BASE FROM IMMINENT OVERRUNNING. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
after comming a few more games i guess relocation is not such a good idea, unless playing with really good people. otherwise, it is just way too risky.
but to prevent the aliens from knowing you are trying to relocate, maybe you can send out 2 of your best marines to each nearest hive instead, and have the rest guard base. This way they might think you are actually trying to keep your original location.
All of you are saying the same thing but you're acting like someone can actually say a strat doesn't work for all maps.
Relocation works wonders on three maps I can think of: nothing, bast, and hera. On nothing, try relocating to cargo and use mines to defend the base. It makes it so easy to tech rush when your main base has three nozzles. I'm not going to give away the bast relocation spot because not many people know it and it wins every time.
Hera's relocation spot is obvious (in 1.03 at least). We'll see how 1.04 changes things. You cannot create a build order that will fit every map. Every commander has to be flexible. I hate playing under commanders who turn mute if they lose a hive. The game isn't over until they get three hives. I regularly win after the aliens get fades. I am currently polishing my tech rush (which obviously gives the aliens time to get fades) just because it's a more dangerous style of play. Anyway, the point is that relocation is viable (even in the current 1.04 beta) as long as you adapt it to the map you're on.
I have seen this tactic work very well too many times. Most of the time it was in large games (18+ people). I wasn't the comm but the different comms using the tactic did the same thing.
1. build 1 IP 2. Leave 2 marines behind at main to defend and give the general idea that it is still an impotant location.
I think the problem is with step 2. Without enough marines this is pretty tough to do and still have enough to secure a hive. I must say that in a game where skulks have positive kill ratios across the board the marines are going to get hosed no matter what the strategy used. A group of 4+ marines shouldn't lose more than 1 or 2 member on the way to a hive if they cover each other. If a marine goes down, one of the defenders rushes up while the dead spawns.
It is a bit of a risk but I've seen it work about 5 times in a row on different maps with the teams being fairly randomized but with decent commanders. I've never seen it lose with a good comm. The key is keeping a couple marines at base to try to get skulks to keep rushing. You get at least 3 healthy marines to a hive and generally its not a problem. Even when the aliens know exactly what you're doing you should be able to hold them off with marines. The only way I can think of to thwart this is to build a bit of defence at the 2nd hive location and camp it with skulks.
Now what normally happened was while the aliens were concentrating on taking out the new base at the hive, a couple of marines would go to the 2nd open hive, kill the gorge and build a phase. At this point the games were almost over and turrets went up all over the place and lots of lerks started hiding in vents trying to take out TFs and PGs.
These games were with well balanced teams as far as skill goes. In the most competitive game (TF was taken out 3 times in 2nd hive and we kept managing to hold them off) we had an HMG in the 2nd hive that was dropped and picked up about 10 times. 1 HMG to be recycled on defence is a wonderful thing. Can't remember what map that was though...
I personally prefer to secure the res rather than hives to start. I'd rather have the resources for upgrades and weapons than continually waste it on trying to take 2 hives if the original relocation does not work. A marine needs resources to win far more than aliens. Without resources they can't get any upgrades or weapons to hold off and beat back the initial fades that a failed relocate brings into play.
It is possible to win with 3 hives being up IF you have secured adequate resources. I've done it and I'm not that good, so I know it can be done. Relocate works so well if and only if the aliens have less teamwork than the marines, in a public server this is easy to find.
I played a game on Nacy (not my happy map) a couple of days ago as an alien. We had Mother and Engine and the marines had Subspace when some one managed to kill the marine base. One guy survieved and had built an CC in sub. I attacked half a second too late and he managed to get a IP up. We spent maybe an hour to get them out, lost and rebuilt 2 hives (thank you very much hitboxproblem), finaly the server chrashed. I'd guess that they where fully upgraded wich meant that one guy with lmg could seriously hurt a fade. Couple it up with _lots_ of turrets and a fade doesnt last long. IMO Subspace is _the_ most important place for aliens to secure on Nacy. Aliens dont need messhall. Mother has 4 different directions to attack from so a single lerk can most of the time take it out if the marines are busy somewhere else. Engine is quite hard but its not as open as sub. Subspace has one main entrance and 2 vents. One vent is in the celing and I dont know if everyone even knows its there. The other vent is only open if the marines has welded it open. I would say that both are quite hard to attack from. So a marine should do the oposite. Take Subspace, engine and keep messhall clean if not secure. Mother is simply to hard/exspencive to defend.
A bit off-topic but... I belive that we would have stomped them out pretty fast if they didn't have upgrades though. I find it quite strange that marines keep their upgrades even if the building is destroyed. Ok it cost a lot to upgrade but that is an one time cost. Given to every marine that spawns... that is worht much. I think they just like the aliens would only have the upgrades as long as they have the building. If the bulding is the destroyed then the upgrade is temporary gone. If they build again then it will come back with out extra cost for the upgrades. This would mean that marines would more feel the need to protect their buildings and aliens would have something else to eat than ip, obs, gate and cc.
<!--QuoteBegin--AcKz+Jan 16 2003, 07:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AcKz @ Jan 16 2003, 07:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hive relocation is a horrible idea. Those 30 res at the beginning of the game kill you<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In clan play, yes, but definately not in pub play.
Think about it this way... Instead of hanging around your tactically useless marine start, you spend 30 res to move into a hive. You are now 30 resources behind normal, BUT you ALREADY control one hive. Taking the nest hive is comparable to taking the first hive if the marines built at the original base. Hive relocation is only a good idea if the aliens do not start out in the middle hive, as it takes FAR too long to walk from subspace to unnamed, or from generator to sewer etc...
Canadianmonk3y: It works very well in pub play, when they do not expect it. I've been on this tactic for a while now, and it is finally becoming known at least in some version or another on most servers; but it can still work, very well, refer to my first post in this topic. The numbers do not lie.
Please note: When they do not expect it. If you repeatledly do this gambit, like NationWide's commander, (a few posts back) of course it wont work because the aliens know exactly where you plan to go.. In my opinion you should only gambit one in four games on an averg map, (always on ns_nothing tho.. cargo=win)
AcKz: 30 res? Kill you? It will cost you 25 to build a TF there.. so why not spend 5 more instead, and save time and effort of worrying about an inconsequential resource.
Alpha_1_SLS: Resource over a hive? bad idea. Sure it helps you get motion, or a few armr wpns upgrades quick.. but they pale in comparison to having the controll of a hive. You can easily win the game if you contoll ONLY two resource, (which are inside the two hives you own).
the reality Maxim in NS right now is: Two Secure Hives by either team = Game Win..
Personally I just don't think its worth it, when I try it on pubs most the team don't realise whats going on even when i explain and just say OMG n00b comm or just ignore me. Anyway to sum up:
Pros for relocation(at start of game in particular): -Secures a hive early and permanently. -Stops you ever having to fight onii or 3 hive weapons. -Hive location superior to original base. -Ensures marines defend hive. -Reduces micromanagement
Cons: -Costs Res and Time. -Leaves base open to skulk rush. (mildly irrelavant) -Can be stopped by good skulking. Takes out hive party. -Moving to unknown hive (could be aliens home, negated by listening). -Makes easy for aliens to concentrate attacks once found. -Distress Beacon acts worse. -Usually loses an RP. -Gives marines less options for getting about via phases early game = slower marines.
Personally I'd rather set-up a phase in the hive, its easier to take down than a relocation but its lower risk. This is a high risk/high gain strat whereas a phase is medium risk/high gain. Imho if your marines can't hold a hive with TF, turrets and a phase against skulks/lerks they can't hold anything. A phase basically means you spawn *in* the hive.
I can see the appeal for variation but if your playing to win I'd advise against it. Obvioulsy as an endgame desperate strat its very good, slightly worse than a vent base.
The main point of the hive relocation rush is essentially to move your base of operations to a hive so that you can effectively get to a second hive faster than were you at the marine spawn. The way most maps are, this makes perfect sense. However, the problem arises when it comes time to get the second hive. You may be assured a shorter walk to their hive, but that in no way changes the amount of time it takes for your marines to respawn. Most alien hives also are, design-wise, weaker to defend than the marine main base. There are usually numerous vents, multiple entrances, etc to hinder the best of defenders. Also, most of the time that I've seen this rush performed, a phasegate is built near the second hive that the marines hope to acquire anyways. The loss of resources from building a new command chair and resource node is pretty staggering, consider that's almost half of your default resources. Don't hive rush unless you are extremely overconfident of the abilities of your marines to mow straight through some skulks and build your base.
<!--QuoteBegin--rebo+Jan 10 2003, 03:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rebo @ Jan 10 2003, 03:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not really, taking one or two hives is common practise, wether you lose that hive wth your CC in it, or at another location you have lost the game. It is also better to take the hive nearest the alien hive first because you defend that and the aliens usually have to go 'the longway round' to get to their 2nd hive, giving yourself even more time to either siege their start hive, or grab the 2nd.
I.e. on tanith Ecilpse nothing caged, go for fusion ccore viaduct and ventilation respectively.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In ns_nothing, Cargo is by far the best hive to take because of the extra 2 resource nozzles close by.
<!--QuoteBegin--Drown+Jan 15 2003, 11:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Drown @ Jan 15 2003, 11:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->strong reason? I'd say its rather minor in the overall scope of what the hive gambit gives you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe the language and the bold were too much, but it's something important to keep in mind, as distress beacon becomes essentially worthless. If you need to use it, it's because your base is getting creamed, and your squad spawning 30 seconds away isn't going to change that. Whether the trade-off is worth it is down to the commander and the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--Drown+Jan 15 2003, 11:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Drown @ Jan 15 2003, 11:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyhow you can use it to your advantage, to quickly warp a lot of marines to a location without a phase.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->"Guys, type kill in console so I can warp you." "Woo! We're at...our original base...which isn't close to anything...do'h! Comm, need ammo!"
I think this is a good option if you get overrun at main and need to rebuild anyway... but as a plan from the beginning? Not sure it's a good idea. As others have pointed out... too many wasted res that could have been used on upgrades.
I must be missing something...If you don't build a single thing at the start, and move straight to a hive, you're effectively only down 10 res. To hold that hive normally, you'd need an extra phase gate at a cost of 20 res. 30 res for a new chair vs. 20 for a phase...
If you plan on it, it's not that expensive (initially). Still damn risky though, with drawbacks as covered well by Kid-A. Losing a res point is oh so costly.
maybe if u play idiots this might work, however every time someone has done this i always win. Why? Well for 111111111111000000 reasons but i will list only a few.
1) you lose your resource tower
2) you waste more money
3) dont ever try it on me cuz it never works since only bad teams dont look to see what the team is doing in the beginning
4) you might say well o what if we have cargo bay in ns_nothing with 4 resource towers, umm no that doesnt work. your never gonna have money to defend every resource tower and yes someone did this to me twice before and we have one both times because i took out every resource tower.
<!--QuoteBegin--s1ck|-AKDraithLord+Jan 17 2003, 07:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (s1ck|-AKDraithLord @ Jan 17 2003, 07:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...and we have one both times because i took out every resource tower.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> i meant won * pardon my spelling <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
this could be a good strategy if you are in a clan match because if you do this to start, then the next round if you are marines again they might think you are going to the hive so they rush it, but instead buys you extra time back at home to set things up.
or it could be the other way around.
this works in pub too i suppose =P
i disagree this works only on noobs though, if your marines are sharpshooters there is a good chance this tactic will work.
<!--QuoteBegin--Speedy+Jan 17 2003, 05:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Speedy @ Jan 17 2003, 05:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--rebo+Jan 10 2003, 03:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rebo @ Jan 10 2003, 03:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not really, taking one or two hives is common practise, wether you lose that hive wth your CC in it, or at another location you have lost the game. It is also better to take the hive nearest the alien hive first because you defend that and the aliens usually have to go 'the longway round' to get to their 2nd hive, giving yourself even more time to either siege their start hive, or grab the 2nd.
I.e. on tanith Ecilpse nothing caged, go for fusion ccore viaduct and ventilation respectively.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In ns_nothing, Cargo is by far the best hive to take because of the extra 2 resource nozzles close by.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think i counted, and in the general area of cargo bay, you've got a LOT of nodes you can get to fast.
1) 1 node AT cargo bay
2) 1 node going right entrance
3) 1 node going left entrance
4) 1 node at the end of cargo bay's vent
5) I believe going to the left from the cargo bay, and left again once you reach a door, you are close to a room with a bottomless pit, and another res node
I THINK that was the 5th node that was around the cargo bay, might have been a different one, though
If marines run from start the moment they spawn, aliens WILL NOT be able to stop them, unless they somehow know ahead of time that the marines are moving right away. Once the marines are there, they have a -30 RU penatly, but have the strategic bonus of being in a hive. That is it.
I havent played in a while, 1.03 only, but when I did, the game was a rush to 2 hives. (thats kinda why i stopped) Looking at the logs and the comments I don't think that fact has changed.
As comm I always rushed a hive, building 0 at home. Hover your command vision over the hives, listen for the heartbeat, and you know where they are. Choose the best hive to take. Chair, IPS, armory. Then take a 2nd. Turret both. GG aliens. And I did it on EVERY map.
Whats the alternative? Building stuff at home, then putting turrets in a hive? Who's wasting money now? You'll still lose it, unless you've got 8 arms. I'd rather have marines SPAWNING in a hive. It seems like common sense.
In the marines base aliens don't often bother to harass the rt's even if they are not guarded by a turret. But whenever you relocate aliens WILL bother to take down 2 sentries ina skulk rush just to get at the res. How odd...
<!--QuoteBegin--Kid-A+Feb 4 2003, 03:22 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kid-A @ Feb 4 2003, 03:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In the marines base aliens don't often bother to harass the rt's even if they are not guarded by a turret. But whenever you relocate aliens WILL bother to take down 2 sentries ina skulk rush just to get at the res. How odd... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Foolish aliens; find some better ones. End of story. End of thread.
It's sort of presumptuous to say "end of thread" unless you can lock it. Anyway, I have a few comments about the relocation. If the aliens are in one of the "end" hives and you speed off all of your marines to the opposite hive, you can usually set up a base with a minimum of trouble, since marines are pretty good at sitting at a location and defending it. Also, if you drop some mines for base defense at your new base and speed off to the next hive, you can have the game in hand very quickly. If you catch a skulk gnawning on your original res and recycle while it's still in green or early yellow, you'll get 11 res back, so the RT isn't a total loss even if they decide to attack it. Also, I've noticed this strat works better in smaller games for some reason, I don't know exactly why.
Comments
On another note dont forget that you dont have to actually be in the hive to secure it. Just near enough to siege it. To save on RP early on just do periodic marine checks to make sure they aren't building in there and get a siege later.
I was playing a few days ago on the redphive beta 1.04c(was it c? some letter near there) server, and out of the 6 or so attempts at relocating the marine base to a hive that I saw(mostly from the marine perspective, but the last one I saw from the kharaa side of things), Not a single one was even CLOSE to achieving marine victory. Now, I should first note that the kharaa had several particularly skilled players on their side, and were more than capable of slaughtering us one on one, or even when marines moved in pairs or as groups of 3...best was seeing a group of 6 marines move out from our base, only a few seconds later to see them ALL get killed in about 4 seconds of fighting by a mob of about 5-7 skulks. So, marines were a little outmatched in the skill department. Still, our commander was decent(aside from doggedly trying the hive-base tactic after it kept getting crushed) and we WERE following his orders as best as possible, even though he complained that we weren't and that was why we kept losing. Now, that all said, let's see how the base relocation gambit faired....
First: someone said that if you build anything at your starting base, it should be at most a single IP so marines killed early can rejoin the fight, and it supposedly makes the aliens think you're still trying to hold your starting base. Sorry, but that's pure gicker. First, when the inevitable skulk rush hits your base and finds virtually no one there, the first thought was "Which hive did they go for?" And any marines that spawn onto that lone IP are SCREWED. I should know, my first game(first of several that all went the exact same way, on ns_eclipse) I spawned in about 15 seconds after the game started, right into a mob of skulks that had been munching the IP. Yay. So, if you're going to use this tactic at all, for the love of GOD don't bother with an IP at your start, because it will just get eaten along with anyone that spawns on it.
Second: ok, fair enough, most starting bases are not a lot easier to defend than most of the hives, but eclipse? 2 entrances, yes, but they're both in the same area, pointing the same way, and anything that can cover one entry can cover both of them. In short, relatively easy to defend. But eclipse command? 2 entry points, both perfect for skulks to rush through, and rather hard for marines to defend well without good turret support. By moving our base there(which our commander did EVERY ROUND) not only do we lose the 30-odd resources of the basic base movement, but also we had to devote most of our remaining resources to defense. Combined with a failed attempt to take the CC hive(lot easier for skulks to rush that one from maintanence than marines from eclipse command, especially when the guys building the phasegate got munched), we ended up being resource poor, defensively unsound, and under near-constant attack. They didn't even need fades for that win.
Once we had tried our relocation trick a couple of times and had it crushed, the kharaa started counting on us to do it again...and sure enough, when the big mob of marines moved out to start a new base, they were ambushed and chewed up pretty well. Not stopped, mind you, but the 4 guys that survived out of 9 or so had a big problem of not being able to build fast enough to get everyone else back into the fight, and so we went down in about 2 minutes, in my case without ever respawning. Point is, if you're going to do this tactic fine, but DON'T EXPECT THEM TO TAKE IT LYING DOWN. do it more than once or twice and the kharaa players WILL expect it. And if that initial rush to take a hive gets beat up real bad, you're really in for a world of hurt.
I played about 4 or 5 rounds on eclipse as a marine, and each time we tried the relocation gambit, and each time we got slaughtered. Eventually the server switched to (bast I think? hives were at engineering, ventilation, and viaduct I think), and after another defeated attempt at relocation(we got viaduct, but our attempt to take and hold engineering failed, so eventually we got overrun by fades) I got random teamed to kharaa. Once again marines tried for a relocation, but their choice(viaduct) happened to be our hive location, so after eating all the attackers we stomped their base a bit before they drove us back out(I guess they had partly built up in their base while we killed the rushers rather than gamble it all on relocation). They tried at different times to relocate to ventilation and engineering, but we kept a few skulks roaming around and communication was good enough that we stomped these attempts. Enter fades, game over.
Now, I'm not trying to totally bash on relocation and say that it never works...but with a not-great marine team and/or a pretty good kharaa team, it's very much a gamble. If it works, you have a decent chance to win, but if it fails -for whatever reason, be it skulks intercepting your relocation group, lack of total team commitment to the gambit, start base being overrun too fast and too easily to keep all those skulks away from your new base, etc- you ARE doomed. I still have yet to see it work or even come CLOSE to working myself, and to my(admitedly rather conservative, cautious) thinking there's just way too many things that can potentially go wrong for it to work on a regular basis, at least on pubs. I'd still like to see it actually work though, because it is a kinda sly plan, and I like those, and most everyone else seems to have positive experiences with it, and I like those too. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
edit: oooh yeah, I forgot about how one time in eclipse our commander fired off a distress beacon and all us dead folk got respawned in our original base, and along the way back to eclipse we lost everyone but me(and I only had like 20 health left) to a single skulk that ran into us and all the OCs they had stacked outside our base. Man was that fun. Moral of the story: if you abandon your original base, DON'T EXPECT DISTRESS BEACON TO SAVE YOUR NEW BASE FROM IMMINENT OVERRUNNING. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
but to prevent the aliens from knowing you are trying to relocate, maybe you can send out 2 of your best marines to each nearest hive instead, and have the rest guard base. This way they might think you are actually trying to keep your original location.
Relocation works wonders on three maps I can think of: nothing, bast, and hera. On nothing, try relocating to cargo and use mines to defend the base. It makes it so easy to tech rush when your main base has three nozzles. I'm not going to give away the bast relocation spot because not many people know it and it wins every time.
Hera's relocation spot is obvious (in 1.03 at least). We'll see how 1.04 changes things. You cannot create a build order that will fit every map. Every commander has to be flexible. I hate playing under commanders who turn mute if they lose a hive. The game isn't over until they get three hives. I regularly win after the aliens get fades. I am currently polishing my tech rush (which obviously gives the aliens time to get fades) just because it's a more dangerous style of play. Anyway, the point is that relocation is viable (even in the current 1.04 beta) as long as you adapt it to the map you're on.
1. build 1 IP
2. Leave 2 marines behind at main to defend and give the general idea that it is still an impotant location.
I think the problem is with step 2. Without enough marines this is pretty tough to do and still have enough to secure a hive. I must say that in a game where skulks have positive kill ratios across the board the marines are going to get hosed no matter what the strategy used. A group of 4+ marines shouldn't lose more than 1 or 2 member on the way to a hive if they cover each other. If a marine goes down, one of the defenders rushes up while the dead spawns.
It is a bit of a risk but I've seen it work about 5 times in a row on different maps with the teams being fairly randomized but with decent commanders. I've never seen it lose with a good comm. The key is keeping a couple marines at base to try to get skulks to keep rushing. You get at least 3 healthy marines to a hive and generally its not a problem. Even when the aliens know exactly what you're doing you should be able to hold them off with marines. The only way I can think of to thwart this is to build a bit of defence at the 2nd hive location and camp it with skulks.
Now what normally happened was while the aliens were concentrating on taking out the new base at the hive, a couple of marines would go to the 2nd open hive, kill the gorge and build a phase. At this point the games were almost over and turrets went up all over the place and lots of lerks started hiding in vents trying to take out TFs and PGs.
These games were with well balanced teams as far as skill goes. In the most competitive game (TF was taken out 3 times in 2nd hive and we kept managing to hold them off) we had an HMG in the 2nd hive that was dropped and picked up about 10 times. 1 HMG to be recycled on defence is a wonderful thing. Can't remember what map that was though...
It is possible to win with 3 hives being up IF you have secured adequate resources. I've done it and I'm not that good, so I know it can be done. Relocate works so well if and only if the aliens have less teamwork than the marines, in a public server this is easy to find.
I'd guess that they where fully upgraded wich meant that one guy with lmg could seriously hurt a fade. Couple it up with _lots_ of turrets and a fade doesnt last long.
IMO Subspace is _the_ most important place for aliens to secure on Nacy. Aliens dont need messhall. Mother has 4 different directions to attack from so a single lerk can most of the time take it out if the marines are busy somewhere else. Engine is quite hard but its not as open as sub.
Subspace has one main entrance and 2 vents. One vent is in the celing and I dont know if everyone even knows its there. The other vent is only open if the marines has welded it open. I would say that both are quite hard to attack from.
So a marine should do the oposite. Take Subspace, engine and keep messhall clean if not secure. Mother is simply to hard/exspencive to defend.
A bit off-topic but...
I belive that we would have stomped them out pretty fast if they didn't have upgrades though. I find it quite strange that marines keep their upgrades even if the building is destroyed. Ok it cost a lot to upgrade but that is an one time cost. Given to every marine that spawns... that is worht much. I think they just like the aliens would only have the upgrades as long as they have the building. If the bulding is the destroyed then the upgrade is temporary gone. If they build again then it will come back with out extra cost for the upgrades.
This would mean that marines would more feel the need to protect their buildings and aliens would have something else to eat than ip, obs, gate and cc.
In clan play, yes, but definately not in pub play.
Think about it this way...
Instead of hanging around your tactically useless marine start, you spend 30 res to move into a hive. You are now 30 resources behind normal, BUT you ALREADY control one hive. Taking the nest hive is comparable to taking the first hive if the marines built at the original base.
Hive relocation is only a good idea if the aliens do not start out in the middle hive, as it takes FAR too long to walk from subspace to unnamed, or from generator to sewer etc...
Please note: When they do not expect it. If you repeatledly do this gambit, like NationWide's commander, (a few posts back) of course it wont work because the aliens know exactly where you plan to go.. In my opinion you should only gambit one in four games on an averg map, (always on ns_nothing tho.. cargo=win)
AcKz: 30 res? Kill you? It will cost you 25 to build a TF there.. so why not spend 5 more instead, and save time and effort of worrying about an inconsequential resource.
Alpha_1_SLS: Resource over a hive? bad idea. Sure it helps you get motion, or a few armr wpns upgrades quick.. but they pale in comparison to having the controll of a hive. You can easily win the game if you contoll ONLY two resource, (which are inside the two hives you own).
the reality Maxim in NS right now is: Two Secure Hives by either team = Game Win..
Pros for relocation(at start of game in particular):
-Secures a hive early and permanently.
-Stops you ever having to fight onii or 3 hive weapons.
-Hive location superior to original base.
-Ensures marines defend hive.
-Reduces micromanagement
Cons:
-Costs Res and Time.
-Leaves base open to skulk rush. (mildly irrelavant)
-Can be stopped by good skulking. Takes out hive party.
-Moving to unknown hive (could be aliens home, negated by listening).
-Makes easy for aliens to concentrate attacks once found.
-Distress Beacon acts worse.
-Usually loses an RP.
-Gives marines less options for getting about via phases early game = slower marines.
Personally I'd rather set-up a phase in the hive, its easier to take down than a relocation but its lower risk. This is a high risk/high gain strat whereas a phase is medium risk/high gain. Imho if your marines can't hold a hive with TF, turrets and a phase against skulks/lerks they can't hold anything. A phase basically means you spawn *in* the hive.
I can see the appeal for variation but if your playing to win I'd advise against it. Obvioulsy as an endgame desperate strat its very good, slightly worse than a vent base.
I.e. on tanith Ecilpse nothing caged, go for fusion ccore viaduct and ventilation respectively.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In ns_nothing, Cargo is by far the best hive to take because of the extra 2 resource nozzles close by.
Maybe the language and the bold were too much, but it's something important to keep in mind, as distress beacon becomes essentially worthless. If you need to use it, it's because your base is getting creamed, and your squad spawning 30 seconds away isn't going to change that. Whether the trade-off is worth it is down to the commander and the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--Drown+Jan 15 2003, 11:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Drown @ Jan 15 2003, 11:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyhow you can use it to your advantage, to quickly warp a lot of marines to a location without a phase.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->"Guys, type kill in console so I can warp you." "Woo! We're at...our original base...which isn't close to anything...do'h! Comm, need ammo!"
If you plan on it, it's not that expensive (initially). Still damn risky though, with drawbacks as covered well by Kid-A. Losing a res point is oh so costly.
1) you lose your resource tower
2) you waste more money
3) dont ever try it on me cuz it never works since only bad teams dont look to see what the team is doing in the beginning
4) you might say well o what if we have cargo bay in ns_nothing with 4 resource towers, umm no that doesnt work. your never gonna have money to defend every resource tower and yes someone did this to me twice before and we have one both times because i took out every resource tower.
...and we have one both times because i took out every resource tower.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i meant won * pardon my spelling <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
or it could be the other way around.
this works in pub too i suppose =P
i disagree this works only on noobs though, if your marines are sharpshooters there is a good chance this tactic will work.
I.e. on tanith Ecilpse nothing caged, go for fusion ccore viaduct and ventilation respectively.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In ns_nothing, Cargo is by far the best hive to take because of the extra 2 resource nozzles close by.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think i counted, and in the general area of cargo bay, you've got a LOT of nodes you can get to fast.
1) 1 node AT cargo bay
2) 1 node going right entrance
3) 1 node going left entrance
4) 1 node at the end of cargo bay's vent
5) I believe going to the left from the cargo bay, and left again once you reach a door, you are close to a room with a bottomless pit, and another res node
I THINK that was the 5th node that was around the cargo bay, might have been a different one, though
it usually only works if the kharaa are newbs or your marine force is very organized/skilled
As comm I always rushed a hive, building 0 at home. Hover your command vision over the hives, listen for the heartbeat, and you know where they are. Choose the best hive to take. Chair, IPS, armory. Then take a 2nd. Turret both. GG aliens. And I did it on EVERY map.
Whats the alternative? Building stuff at home, then putting turrets in a hive? Who's wasting money now? You'll still lose it, unless you've got 8 arms. I'd rather have marines SPAWNING in a hive. It seems like common sense.
Anyone notice this.
In the marines base aliens don't often bother to harass the rt's even if they are not guarded by a turret. But whenever you relocate aliens WILL bother to take down 2 sentries ina skulk rush just to get at the res. How odd...
Foolish aliens; find some better ones. End of story. End of thread.