Bad idea to make Stab Worth It(TM)

meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 1,551 Advanced user
edited January 2017 in Ideas and Suggestions
Stab - Bio 7 (or whatever)
Upon landing 2 consecutive hits on a single marine within X amount of time (1sec which would be enough time for a fade to swipe twice at max speed, though could be longer to allow for blinking, though it might make the ability a little too powerful if fades can move evasively AND gain a damage bonus), the third hit within ~1 sec is Stab - Double swipe damage, no startup delay, however fade may not attack for 1.25 secs afterwards.
Heck, if that was too strong you could even make it so it only triggered after 3 consecutive hits without missing.

Even with the modifications made to stab, it's not really worth getting or using. Why not make it so fades are rewarded for decent accuracy (even if they're walkers) with an awesome looking 1-2-3 combo attack that does bonus damage, evening out the playing field against heavily armored marines. At bio 7 you'd expect marines to be at least A2, so this would make them a 3-hit kill, IF you land the swipes without missing, and fast.

Maybe a bad idea, but had to get it out here for peer review :P
Too weird to live, yet too rare to die
BeigeAlert

Comments

  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    It's not a bad idea. It's tweakable too.
    coolitic
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,461 Advanced user
    Sounds good to me. What are those changes to stab they made you mention?
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 1,551 Advanced user
    Sounds good to me. What are those changes to stab they made you mention?
    the old ones, to movement speed and ting
    Too weird to live, yet too rare to die
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,825 admin
    I like it. Let me make sure I've got this straight though:
    If swipe is your selected weapon, nothing changes, stab is never used.
    BUT if you select stab as your weapon... it appears to be the same, until you land your 2nd consecutive swipe, then the next attack is the stab swing which does double damage but has a long cooldown afterwards.
  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 1,551 Advanced user
    edited January 2017
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    I like it. Let me make sure I've got this straight though:
    If swipe is your selected weapon, nothing changes, stab is never used.
    BUT if you select stab as your weapon... it appears to be the same, until you land your 2nd consecutive swipe, then the next attack is the stab swing which does double damage but has a long cooldown afterwards.

    Originally I was thinking no selection of stab necessary, passive upgrade to primary attack. However with the delay after stabbing (so it's not a flat DPS increase against structures or whatever- NOT that I'd be opposed to this since fades structure dmg is measly anyway) I guess choice is better.
    Also bare in mind the cooldown after stabbing would just be for attacking - fades would still be able to blink or whatever.

    And it's after 2 consecutive hits within a certain timeframe, not the second hit, else you'd be able to guaranteed (as in, medpacks wont save them) 2 shot lower armor marines which is bad.
    Too weird to live, yet too rare to die
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
    I do like the idea of it being a passive upgrade (1-swipe 2-swipe stab), as long as the stab move still uses the same damage type as before.

    Keep the cooldown separate like boneshield and don't slow the fade down like regular stab does and it would be a pretty nice upgrade.
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    edited January 2017
    So what if you switch target in-between? You hit one marine twice, kill him, then stab a second marine and instagib him?

    What happens on the 4th consecutive hit, is that a stab as well? Can you turn in to a stabbing machine instagibbing armorless marines like dominos?
    .trixX.
  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 1,551 Advanced user
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    So what if you switch target in-between? You hit one marine twice, kill him, then stab a second marine and instagib him?

    What happens on the 4th consecutive hit, is that a stab as well? Can you turn in to a stabbing machine instagibbing armorless marines like dominos?

    I purposely worded the original post such that this case is included and your question is answered there. tl;dr no, and no
    Too weird to live, yet too rare to die
    coolitic
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    Then I don't want it!!
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    edited January 2017
    I think it should be passive and not work on structures and exos.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 1,551 Advanced user
    edited January 2017
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    Then I don't want it!!
    :'(
    coolitic wrote: »
    I think it should be passive and not work on structures and exos.
    Whether or not it works on structures/exos, I'm not certain it'd make a big difference. Stab in its current form is more or less only "good" for hit and run attacks to chunk the hp of exos, if it required 3 fast hits for a stab that's still overall less useful against exos than its current form if you ask me since it'd require more exposure. Against structures I couldn't care less, since there's a cooldown on attacking after the stab it's not a flat dps increase as outlined in OP.

    Personally I think in a hypothetical cursory implementation it's not worth worrying about these use cases unless something is obviously wrong, but of course that's the wonder of modifications, they change stuff!
    Too weird to live, yet too rare to die
  • NominousNominous Baltimore, MD Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146518Members Posts: 325 Advanced user
    I thought swipe's attack rate is 0.65s? It would take 1.3s to land two swipes if you hold down the button. I like the idea, and it would be cool if the third swipe actually played a sped-up stab animation in order to have a visual representation of the upgrade.

    However, this ability would make focus obsolete. The time to kill A2/3 marines is 2.925s using focus (without stab) as opposed to 1.95s using stab (without focus):
    Focus (No Stab):

    A2:
    Base: 100/70
    Swipe: 66/31
    Swipe: 16/0
    Swipe: 0/0
    TTK: 2.925s

    A3:
    Base: 100/90
    Swipe: 66/51
    Swipe: 32/12
    Swipe: 0/0
    TTK: 2.925s

    Stab (No Focus):

    A2:
    Base: 100/70
    Swipe: 78/44
    Swipe: 56/18
    Swipe: 0/0
    TTK: 1.95s

    A3:
    Base: 100/90
    Swipe: 78/64
    Swipe: 56/38
    Swipe: 0/0
    TTK: 1.95s

    There's no reason to get focus once stab is researched. Alternatively, with focus, you could lower the stab requirement to a single swipe. This lowers the time to kill to exactly 1.95s, but you'd be two-shotting marines regardless of armor level. Also, it would be frivolously easy to trigger stab if you only need to land one swipe. It would be a nightmare for exos.
    meatmachine
  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 1,551 Advanced user
    edited January 2017
    In my original post I included the clauses about landing the swipes within a certain time frame for a reason!

    Thanks for the numbers though man, I was a little vague about some of the proposed values in OP because I couldn't remember off the top of my head what the fade swipe speed is :P (and because of course, these are always open to discussion)

    Let's say the stab combo is 'broken' after 0.9 seconds (that's less than the attack speed of focus swipes right? if not, adjust accordingly) - that'd mean focus actually doesn't allow the stab combo to activate, so you now have two options -
    You have stab, and you dont get focus - You're now stronger than usual when being walker fade (come on, everybody does it a little bit!)
    You have stab and you get focus - Hit and run strats make you still strong, you dont need to worry about stab because it doesn't apply to you.

    It raises the skill floor a leeetle tiny bit for fades in the late game, devalues medpack spam for high armor marines, does something -useful- with an animation asset we rarely get to see, plus, it is inkeeping with the theme of fades receiving upgrades that cross over with other hive abilities *cough*metabolise*cough*advancedmetabolise*cough*
    Post edited by meatmachine on
    Too weird to live, yet too rare to die
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    Or we could just remove/replace focus, it was never a well thought out ability in the first place.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


    The_Welsh_Wizard
  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 1,551 Advanced user
    coolitic wrote: »
    Or we could just remove/replace focus, it was never a well thought out ability in the first place.
    I wish people had just read the OP properly, I dont want my beautiful idea thread to turn into a balance discussion about an unrelated mechanic pls -_-
    Too weird to live, yet too rare to die
    .trixX.IeptBarakat
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,990 Advanced user
    I think a three hit combo as suggested would create unnecessary complexity and requite more visual aid to convey properly. It is also rather too difficult to execute, making the Fade even more difficult to learn.

    A simpler changes would fit the Fade's hit-n-run role better. eg:
    -Reduce Stab wind up time (possibly introduce a 0.5 second no-blink period afterwards for balance).
    -Change Stab animation to two rapid attacks, similar to the Axe. (Rather boring, but effective for assassinating unarmoured marines)
    -Change stab activation mechanism to: tap attack to swipe once, hold attack button for 1 second to charge up a high damage Stab. If released too early, the attack will be a swipe.
  • BestProfileNameBestProfileName Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177320Members Posts: 448 Advanced user
    em, if you land the stab you now move 50% faster for 3 seconds. I donno. I only use stab to do damage to structures, really...
  • ZdrytchXZdrytchX Australia Join Date: 2016-02-06 Member: 212662Members Posts: 101 Advanced user
    How about using stab triggers blink?
    e.g.

    *player presses stab*
    FADE waits a bit
    FADE blinks forward
    BAM and the FADE stabs!
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 385 Advanced user
    Out of curiosity...
    Did the devs never consider acidrockets as 3rd weapon.. and if yes.. what are the reasons against it... even at high biomass and quite weak.. like spit...
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    coolitic wrote: »
    Or we could just remove/replace focus, it was never a well thought out ability in the first place.
    my beautiful idea
    is trash

    the best fix for stab has already been proposed countless times by me, that is by holding down left mouse button a basic attack becomes a heavy attack, the more you hold, the more damage, and while doing this you cannot blink or jump so that it remain true to the original design just a little more practical.

  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 848 Advanced user
    the best fix for stab has already been proposed countless times by me

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sJY7BTIuPY
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
    BicsumIeptBarakatcoolitic
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 385 Advanced user
    Kasharic wrote: »
    I'd much rather see stab turned into a passive upgrade that changes the damage type of the fade swipe... so that it not longer does such low damage vs structures. its a 3rd hive ability, at which point more often than not there are few skulks left on the field anyway... let the fade do some structure damage already!

    I think it's an awesome idea, if they dont implement anything like acid rockets or the other ideas, even though there are often lot's of skullks left if the marines can still hold their ground. It's often like that because to many lifeforms died...
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    Kasharic wrote: »
    I'd much rather see stab turned into a passive upgrade that changes the damage type of the fade swipe... so that it not longer does such low damage vs structures. its a 3rd hive ability, at which point more often than not there are few skulks left on the field anyway... let the fade do some structure damage already!

    But then it would be incorrect to call it stab ;)

    I personally think stab should be replaced with some kind of cc ability.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


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