1.04e Numbers Are Up.

Kitsune · January 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">Damage/shots to kill for most weapons.</div> Sorry to take so long, that whole pesky sleep thing wanted to happen.

<a href='http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/104estats.htm' target='_blank'>Here are the new numbers.</a>

<a href='http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/ns-stats.htm' target='_blank'>The old numbers are still here if you want to compare.</a>

Do with 'em what you will.

EnemyWithin · January 2003

Nice!

Flayra · January 2003

Thanks. I'm afraid I'm STILL making changes here, but this is helpful.

Immacolata · January 2003

Kitsune, you're a great help with your meticulous test. To shed some factual light on the rants and the raves <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

SuperSammo · January 2003

Take as long as you need to get it right Flayra <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

Immacolata · January 2003

Yeah, for with 1.04 he'll start looking on 1.1 with the team and I expect it would take a while to finish such a task - and thus I'd rather wait extra for 1.04 being the bestest server side patch ever. On the other hand, what if it turns out PERFECT? Then what are we supposed to do on these boards? Oh my, the social implications of that are scary <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

Madjai · January 2003

couple of questions about the charts;

under LMG it has 10/11/12/13, are these the LMG damage from lvl 0 to lvl 3 ammo upgrade?

and under skulk for LMG it has 9/14/16/16, are these the number of bullets required to kill the skulk from lvl 0 to lvl 3 ammo upgrade?

Savant · January 2003

One of the problems I see is that if Flayra wants to make 'all chambers equally viable' then the base defense of the skulk will need to be increased slightly. Otherwise aliens will still go D first since they need to keep up with the tech upgrades by the marines. Sure, people may say increasing the skulk resistance to Marine fire will make it harder to kill them, but that's what the marine upgrades are for. Even if the skulks could survive ONE extra bullet (with base armor) that would help.

I'd also like to see a SLIGHT decrease in the pistol ROF. It's a very powerful weapon (in the right hands) and allowing the ROF to be as fast as the LMG is a bit unrealistic. Nothing major, a ROF of 2 shots per second would certainly not restrict the marine's ability to fully utilize the pistol, but would keep it as a BACKUP and not primary weapon.

Regards,

Savant

include · January 2003

I'll probably stop playing NS. 17 seconds just to respawn as a marine? Just sitting there, going ho-hum. 2 bites kills you, so you are easily killed.

fo_sheezy_my_neezy · January 2003

It'd be sad to stop playing NS over a spawn time of 17 seconds. Us kharaa often have to wait far longer than that, especially during the first stages of the game, when we have only 1 hive. I've waited for 1-2 minutes to respawn, just to be killed 3 seconds out the hive, and then wait for another 30 seconds to spawn again. I'm still playing, and in my (totally kharaa-biased) opinion, it helps make at least this portion of the game even. It's a sore point with skulks, and there is no quick way to fix waiting in line (like marines can do by building IPs). Just a thought from the other side to even in out. Thanks for the good work Flayra.

Jeb · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RpTheHotrod @ Jan 16 2003, 07:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I'll probably stop playing NS. 17 seconds just to respawn as a marine? Just sitting there, going ho-hum. 2 bites kills you, so you are easily killed.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
play cs for a bit and wait 2 minutes or longer for the orund to end. 17 seconds is no big deal, and you have to have some incentive to try to stay alive.

The_Spectre · January 2003

Looks like <i>two</i> D chambers early on will be the thing for good gorges to do. The third doesn't add anything in the critical "unupgraded lmg vs carapace skulk" matchup. The third won't be useful until later on.

I'm curious: Did you calculate all this, or did you test it? If you're calculating, I think you made a mistake, and if you tested, I think there's a bug. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'>
A level 3 carapace skulk takes, according to the chart, 16 unupgraded lmg bullets to kill. The same skulk should take 8 unupgraded pistol bullets to kill, since pistol does double the damage, but according to the chart, it takes 9. Well, maybe it's just a rounding issue. Does HL round health and armor numbers?

Edit: Judging by the amount of numbers, and the shotgun damage being "per pellet", I'd guess you calculated it. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'>

matso · January 2003

Hmm... just put together a <a href='http://www.dtek.chalmers.se/~matso/armor.xls' target='_blank'>spreadsheet</a> that gives _almost_ the same numbers. I think there is a typo in the Lerk lvl1 carap vs lvl 1 upgraded LMG ... should be 12, not 10. There are a couple of other discrepancies as well, but those are probably due to how you calculate health damage when you have some but not enough armor.

I'm using a formula that assumes the damage code looks something like

if (armor >1) then {
calculate armor/health reduction as normal, including carap negation
if (armor < 0) then {
health += armor *2;
armor = 0;l
}
} else {
health -= weapondamage - armor * 2;
armor = 0;
}

... at least that gives a perfect fit for those points I've tried it on.

In any case, I think the skulk needs to get more armor. 9/14/16/16 is _bad_, especially now that Fades are going to be late. Increasing armor to 20/40 would give 10/14/18/19, increasing it to 20/45 would give 10/14/18/21.

Fina · January 2003

7-10 bites to kill a HA with a Skulk? Is that right?

I'll be a bit more confident now. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Immacolata · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fina @ Jan 16 2003, 02:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>7-10 bites to kill a HA with a Skulk? Is that right?

I'll be a bit more confident now. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Problem is, Mr. HA is often keen to introduce you to their friend, who they fondle lovingly at idling guard duties: Mr. HMG... now he's a meanie.

Fina · January 2003

I've met Mr.HMG. I don't like Mr.HMG. I wish Mr.HMG would die.

I guess you've just got to be on Mr.HMG's "good" side, or in other words, the side without holes.

Eater1 · January 2003

I would just like to say that 17 seconds of respawn time is REALLY not a good idea. How about instead of making marines take longer to spawn (thus making the game less fun for marines), aliens just spawn faster (or maybe each hive can spawn 2 aliens at once?), with maybe some trigger to slow down their spawning if there is an enemy in the hive (I'm assuming that that's the reason this wasn't done in the first place - the developers wanted the marines to still be able to attack the hive without constantly being flooded by incoming skulks). I mean really, why slow the game down like that? I don't play NS to sit looking at other people run around waiting to spawn.

Eater.

Eater1 · January 2003

[oops... double posted]

Madjai · January 2003

where are all you guys getting this "17" second respawn time from?

EDIT: NM, i read the fine print

but it says the same 17 seconds in the old numbers... how come you guys didnt complain then?

Kitsune · January 2003

(About the layout)
The numbers running down the side are the damage being done by upgraded weapons. The (9/14/16/16) is the number of shots to kill an uncarapaced/cara1/cara2/cara3 alien of that type. So go down the list to find the damage corresponding to the upgrade (12 damage for LMG at weapons 2, for example), then over to see how sturdy the alien species is.

(About the methods.)
They're calculated, not tested, as I haven't gotten my hands on a 1.04e server yet to try them on. 9 pistol shots to kill a carapace-3 Skulk should be correct, however, because of two things: Health damage is always rounded down, and the damage reduction from carapace applies as long as there's any armor left. So after 6 shots, the Skulk is at 34/1.56. The seventh shot does 20*.79 damage, for 15.8, minus the 1.56 remaining armor, doubled, for a total of 12.68 damage, rounded down to 12, leaving the Skulk with 22 health. Shot eight takes a full twenty off, leaving it with 2 health, and the ninth shot finishes it off.

There is a caveat, however, in that I don't know for certain how many decimal places of armor value are stored. I know for sure that it's at least two decimals; back in 1.03 level 1 LMGs would do 5/1.98 damage against carapace 1 Kharaa. So I got an Onos and had a friend shoot me a hundred times with the LMG, (with a little bit of healing to survive) and wound up with 2 armor left. There's no way to test beyond two decimals, though, leaving an unfortunate bit of 'wiggle room' in the calculations. I just went with the assumption that armor values are accurate to as many decimals as necessary, and if I'm incorrect, I doubt that the difference would noticably alter anything.

(About the typo.)
[Edit: I'm fairly confident that 10 is correct for a cara 1 Lerk. Level 1 LMG vs. Level 1 cara does 6/2.096 damage. Ten hits, 60 damage, dead Lerk. Remember, they die before the armor's depleted.]

(Respawn)
It's been that duration since 1.03. I wasn't terribly scientific about it, I just got myself killed and kept an eye on my watch while waiting to respawn. I'm not certain that's the 'official' respawn time, you'll notice that on the player list people will hang around in the DEAD list for a while before going into the REIN list, and the model will pop into the game a second or two before the player can actually control it. Seventeen seconds encompasses the entire time between dropping dead and being able to move around again.

Uproar · January 2003

what about how many shots it takes to kill a hive with 1 siege. and how many shots to kill a hive with a lmg/hmg. also how long does it take to kill a hive with 1 siege plus pinging (also how many resouces). I would be really interested in these numbers.

Kitsune · January 2003

Unfortunately, I have no information on exactly how much health alien structures have, and any in-game tests would be hampered by the fact that the hive would be healing itself while I was busy shooting it. I'll give it a shot once 1.04 is released, maybe I can figure something out.

Bishop_Gantry · January 2003

one way to bypass that would be use LMG at pointblank you knwo how many rounds it has... time it the moment you start to shoot stop the glock when the hive have healed itself fully to atleast get hwo fast it regenerates sicne you know the complete damage an LMG can cause you will know how many hitpoints hive regenerated in X amount of time...

Immacolata · January 2003

The hive regenerates while he is shooting as well. It would be easier if the devs would just release the HP numbers of the structures <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'> But if they wont, well then we could assume the hive hasnt got as many hp as the cc, since the cc cant selfheal.

matso · January 2003

Ah .. the hive heals itself for 8 hits per second (20 in 1.04e), so it isn't very hard to count backwards to compensate for the healing stuff. But considering that it takes about 300-400 HMG shots, I'd guess a hive comes in at about 6000-8000 hits or so. Which would translate to about 8-12 siege shots, or about a minutes worth of siege fire.

Oh, bw - regarding that typo question - mea culpa, I was reading the wrong column on my own spreadsheet.

Kitsune · January 2003

You could always build a bunch of sieges nearby and walk around the corner to let them get a lock on the hive. All shoot at once, if the hive lives through it, add another siege, repeat. Of course, don't know for sure how much damage siege blasts do, either, since it's impossible for a player to take a direct hit from one. Structure damage is something of a pain to get solid numbers for, which is why it caught me completely by surprise when I found out that sensory chambers were more than twice as tough as defense and movement chambers.

digicrab · January 2003

Shoot it with different weapons and solve a system of linear equations to get the starting health!
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>

1.04e Numbers Are Up.

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