Are sounds too loud?

.trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 850 Advanced user
edited February 2017 in NS2 General Discussion
CLARIFICATION: The question is about sound occlusion, not the amplitude!

It's kind of weird that you can hear players 2 rooms away. When I gorge I always camp around in places where I can hear half the map, and it seems to me too big an exploit to know where the marines are and how many of them are there, just by LISTENING, without aura.
It also applies the other way around: for eg, you can hear crossroads hive-drop from atrium.

I've meant to ask this question for a long time now, but I always forgot about it after quitting the game, but thankfully Wob reminded me:
Wob wrote: »
Silence on shift hive is OP for the reasons stated above but I want to stress the information deficit created by silence + aura as mentioned by 2cough. It's so god damn powerful on every lifeform bar onos.

Moving silence back to shade hive makes sense for many reasons, the difficulty is fixing the problem that silence has become a crutch for: early game alien expansion vs easy marine aggression early game (major problem is skulks throwing themselves at the nearest engagement time after time after time)

Imo, skulks should be quieter by default because this would help the play style of rookies drastically
Post edited by .trixX. on
NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!

Are sounds too loud? 29 votes

No, sound levels are fine as they are
20%
WalsacooliticThe_Welsh_WizardTyrwingMidairNintendows 6 votes
Idk, some rooms' "hearing range" should be fixed, but it's not an overall problem
44%
pSyk0mAnHandschuhIronHorseSteelcapSquishpokePOOPFACEsoccerguy2432coughmaD_maX_VetinariMashpitSquaredLegend_BossZdrytchXantou 13 votes
Yes, sounds are definitely too loud
34%
twiliteblueKouji_SanWob.trixX.KarpmanBestProfileNameBeigeAlertIxianMoFo1RevanCorana 10 votes
Idc, I play while listening to music
0%
BestProfileName
«1

Comments

  • BestProfileNameBestProfileName Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177320Members Posts: 448 Advanced user
    edited February 2017
    Yes, sounds are definitely too loud
    Though I voted that they're too loud, I think they're only slightly too loud and that the hearing range is probably more of an issue. Maybe the sound should have more of a drop off with distance.

    edit: this is a minor issue, although I do think it's worth addressing.
    Bicsum.trixX.pSyk0mAn
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 15,780 Advanced user
    edited February 2017
    Yes, sounds are definitely too loud
    What's that, I can't hear you! The sounds are too loud!


    Post edited by Kouji_San on

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  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 850 Advanced user
    Yes, sounds are definitely too loud
    this is a minor issue, although I do think it's worth addressing.

    Oh to be sure, this is a minor issue :] But I'm guessing it could be remedied just as easily

    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • ArchieArchie Antarctica Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58028Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 438 Advanced user
    edited February 2017
    Mate i've played with you multiple times, you wouldn't even know if there was a skulk 10 rooms down or on the ceiling above you.

    Only option is to lower the distance for specific sounds(fmod) then increase the volume, i was actually thinking about this about a week ago when i was in battle as a gorge, all i heard was healspray sounds and for some reason the sound of healspray was deafening the sounds out in the environment with that said, player movement on both teams needs a volume increase and again, local-client sounds such as gliding and speeding through environment need to be removed or lowered, gliding as a lerk sounds so lame, what's the point when it just makes it harder for rookies and just offends vets.

    Sound occlusion should really only be 2-3rooms max, 3d volume needs to be increased and 2d decreased.
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  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 850 Advanced user
    Yes, sounds are definitely too loud
    Archie wrote: »
    Mate i've played with you multiple times, you wouldn't even know if there was a skulk 10 rooms down or on the ceiling above you.

    To me? If so, you might confuse me with someone else... usually I'm the only one on pubs calling out where the other team is moving :D

    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 387 Advanced user
    Idk, some rooms' "hearing range" should be fixed, but it's not an overall problem
    .trixX. wrote: »
    Archie wrote: »
    Mate i've played with you multiple times, you wouldn't even know if there was a skulk 10 rooms down or on the ceiling above you.

    To me? If so, you might confuse me with someone else... usually I'm the only one on pubs calling out where the other team is moving :D

    Well, yes, seeing you clueless running into an ambush several times despite the noise :)
    coolitic
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 850 Advanced user
    Yes, sounds are definitely too loud
    I get off the bike my own way, and it's intentional, OK?! x)
    Running into an ambush does not mean i'm not aware of it... it's pub, so i usually take my chances :P
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
    Bicsum
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 724 Advanced user
    Yes, sounds are definitely too loud
    I voted that they're too loud because of how far away you can hear a lot of things.
    Kouji_SanVetinari.trixX.BestProfileName
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 15,780 Advanced user
    edited February 2017
    Yes, sounds are definitely too loud
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    I voted that they're too loud because of how far away you can hear a lot of things.

    Well TBH the big bastards Space cow can be as loud as they want to be, so you can hear those ominous sounds. The rest and especially the sound in base are noisy...
    Post edited by Kouji_San on

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  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,611 Advanced user
    Idk, some rooms' "hearing range" should be fixed, but it's not an overall problem
    Sounds should travel along walls, not through
    To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to play Natural Selection 2. The gameplay is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of military strategy and advanced mathematics you won't even win a single game. Theres also the game's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into the game. The maps and artwork draw heavily from Riddley Scott's Alien franchise, for instance. The players understand this stuff, they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depth of the game, to realise that it's not just great, that it also says something about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Natural Selection 2 truly ARE idiots. of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in the Marines' existential catchphrase "how do I get to be so good", which itself is a cryptic reference to the high degree of intelligence required to play the game as intended. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion when spectating a game. What fools... how I pity them. And, yes, by the way, i DO have a Fade tatoo. And no, you cannot see it. it's for the ladies' eyes only, and even then they have to demonstrate that they are within 50 hive skill points of my own (preferable lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid.
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  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 15,780 Advanced user
    edited February 2017
    Yes, sounds are definitely too loud
    Sounds should travel along walls, not through

    Blame Creative for the jump back into the darkages of sound systems for games by them bankrupting these lads

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oSlbyLAksM

    I'll add this one as well, cause it's AWESOME!
    /w more examples
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Yc2pODiZgU
    Post edited by Kouji_San on

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  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain High Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 1,025 Advanced user
    Idk, some rooms' "hearing range" should be fixed, but it's not an overall problem
    i often wish they were louder actually, but i think they're fine volume-wise. is just a matter of hearing things i feel like i shouldn't proximity-wise.
    IeptBarakat
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 1,014 Advanced user
    I think the jump sound of a stationary skulk should be silent, so that you can initiate jumping ambushes from ceilings/walls silently.

    Currently you have to "walk off" the walls to not be heard, which means a lot less room for error and a lot less potential ambush spots.
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    im inclined to not care.
    You can argue a lot of the sound in NS2, and I can think of many a story reason why it could work.
    (But the main one is that nanites and bacteria are sort of everywhere.)

    Yeh, it goes through walls, which is weird. Its 2 room away, which is weird.
    But does it make sense changing it this late in the game? With all balance in the well.. balance?
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  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    Yes, sounds are definitely too loud
    Option 5: add a new sound engine with wall occlusion.

    Realisticly tho, small fix better than no fix so lower the volume at least yes.
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,826 admin
    Yes, sounds are definitely too loud
    Technically, sound DOES occlude... it's just not working well enough.

    I like what Overwatch does, where it uses the pathing system to determine sound volume, not just using the linear distance.
    .trixX.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,463 Advanced user
    Idk, some rooms' "hearing range" should be fixed, but it's not an overall problem
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    Technically, sound DOES occlude... it's just not working well enough.

    I like what Overwatch does, where it uses the pathing system to determine sound volume, not just using the linear distance.

    So if there is already a system for sound occlusion in place... shouldn't it be theoretically rather easily fixable?
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  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    Yes, sounds are definitely too loud
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    Technically, sound DOES occlude... it's just not working well enough.

    I like what Overwatch does, where it uses the pathing system to determine sound volume, not just using the linear distance.

    So if there is already a system for sound occlusion in place... shouldn't it be theoretically rather easily fixable?

    Mmh dont think its simpler fine tuning a 3d sound engine than lowering a few absolute volume values or linear dropoff. It's not like a wall completely stops sound at 100% I mean
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,463 Advanced user
    Idk, some rooms' "hearing range" should be fixed, but it's not an overall problem
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    Technically, sound DOES occlude... it's just not working well enough.

    I like what Overwatch does, where it uses the pathing system to determine sound volume, not just using the linear distance.

    So if there is already a system for sound occlusion in place... shouldn't it be theoretically rather easily fixable?

    Mmh dont think its simpler fine tuning a 3d sound engine than lowering a few absolute volume values or linear dropoff. It's not like a wall completely stops sound at 100% I mean

    Well, I imagine that instead of fixing a value, you'd fix the drop off formula.
    But I have no idea what ns2's code looks like.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

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  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    edited February 2017
    Yes, sounds are definitely too loud
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    Technically, sound DOES occlude... it's just not working well enough.

    I like what Overwatch does, where it uses the pathing system to determine sound volume, not just using the linear distance.

    So if there is already a system for sound occlusion in place... shouldn't it be theoretically rather easily fixable?

    Mmh dont think its simpler fine tuning a 3d sound engine than lowering a few absolute volume values or linear dropoff. It's not like a wall completely stops sound at 100% I mean

    Well, I imagine that instead of fixing a value, you'd fix the drop off formula.
    But I have no idea what ns2's code looks like.

    Yea me either.
    Im guessing wall occlusion is very bugged actually I never even noticed it. Im refering to how harder it would be to fix wall occlusion rather than just volume/dropoff rate. But ideally it would be of course a better long term fix for immersion and gameplay. But idk so many ppl are fully used to how it is, maybe for NS3. Beside just lowering volume/dropoff would not really adress the issue if you can still hear the same information by just turning the volume up a bit.
  • maD_maX_maD_maX_ Join Date: 2013-04-07 Member: 184678Members Posts: 470 Advanced user
    Idk, some rooms' "hearing range" should be fixed, but it's not an overall problem
    Since NS1 I have always viewed sound as being 50% of the game. I can remember in NS1 hearing something behind me, turning around and reflexively shooting my SG at nothing only to see a dead skull de-cloak (and then get called a hacker).

    Sound takes it from reactionary to anticipatory... Do you wait above a door for them to walk through and then drop down? Or do you hear the marine coming and jump down just before he walks in and has a chance to clear the corners...

    is this in its current form "OP" or even broken...Probably, but it's helpful to both teams and available to everyone, so it's "balanced".
    IeptBarakat
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
    edited February 2017
    Wheres the "I wish sounds were clearer" option? The falloff range is certainly too far but certain sounds are really muffled, like marine footsteps should be more audible. NS1 sounds were often higher pitched and the opposite is true for NS2, which causes me to have a problem making out certain sounds unless I crank the volume to ear bleeding levels.

    Overall the sound system needs a lot of work.
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  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 483 Advanced user
    edited February 2017
    Yes, sounds are definitely too loud
    maD_maX_ wrote: »

    is this in its current form "OP" or even broken...Probably, but it's helpful to both teams and available to everyone, so it's "balanced".

    Helpful to both teams is a poor argument for "balance" because of the asymmetrical nature of the game *hint melee faction*.

    I'm so happy this has been brought up by someone else than me but I'm a little confused and even worried that more people don't care.

    I think it's fairly widely known that silence on shift hive has given a massive boost to early game aliens. I think the reason for this is simply the information deficit created and thus the ease in traversing the map and engaging marines. Current skulk gameplay is abysmal by the entire ns2 public community except for when silence is involved. If we can make them not heard so far away it will do a lot for the early game which, if aliens are able to hold on to more territory for longer, means we can address the onos issue by nerfing them a little.

    Better early game will have to be balanced out by nerfing late game aliens to reduce the snowball impact but also gives us an opportunity to change the onos explosion. This should help improve marine comebacks which are primarily PvP based (easier to frag lifeforms and get map control), as well as getting over that "predictability" of onos up, let's concede. Longer rounds, more to and fro, more fun.

    Basically reduce the power imbalance of the early game so we can address the power imbalance of the late game
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  • SamusDroidSamusDroid Colorado Join Date: 2013-05-13 Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,155 mod
    I once investigated sound occlusion but didn't find any meaningful results. From what I found it only works sometimes. There's an optional float you can change, but it doesn't do anything, leading me to believe it doesn't work properly.
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  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,730 Advanced user
    Attach sounds are too loud on aliens. One of the reasons I like silence, besides being strong, is I no longer have to hear myself biting. Sound occlusion fixes would be cool too.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
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  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 1,551 Advanced user
    I was always of the impression that even visual occlusion in this game barely works. Looking around with r_wireframe enabled you realise your camera pitch/rotation changes what gets occluded and what doesn't. That does not seem like it should be a thing. Eclipse is a particularly bad offender for this, you can see most of the map from various points for absolutely no conceivable reason other than occlusion being super freaky. Unless this is just some weird effect having something to do with the r_wireframe functionality itself of course, in which case I take it back.
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  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,463 Advanced user
    Idk, some rooms' "hearing range" should be fixed, but it's not an overall problem
    I was always of the impression that even visual occlusion in this game barely works. Looking around with r_wireframe enabled you realise your camera pitch/rotation changes what gets occluded and what doesn't. That does not seem like it should be a thing. Eclipse is a particularly bad offender for this, you can see most of the map from various points for absolutely no conceivable reason other than occlusion being super freaky. Unless this is just some weird effect having something to do with the r_wireframe functionality itself of course, in which case I take it back.

    I think occlusion mostly works on props and other "details", and less so on geometry. I have no idea, though.
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  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,826 admin
    Yes, sounds are definitely too loud
    I was always of the impression that even visual occlusion in this game barely works. Looking around with r_wireframe enabled you realise your camera pitch/rotation changes what gets occluded and what doesn't. That does not seem like it should be a thing. Eclipse is a particularly bad offender for this, you can see most of the map from various points for absolutely no conceivable reason other than occlusion being super freaky. Unless this is just some weird effect having something to do with the r_wireframe functionality itself of course, in which case I take it back.

    I think occlusion mostly works on props and other "details", and less so on geometry. I have no idea, though.

    IIRC it works based on the occlusion geometry in the level.
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    edited February 2017
    Boy it would be really cool if sound falloff/ direction worked via the pathing mesh for sounds outside your immediate radius. Only problem aside from performance would be if there are two similar length paths to the sound that go in opposite directions, so the sound would swing around to the other direction if the player moves a short distance.
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