Level 1, 2 weapons (and level 1 armor) - 80 res<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> WOW! What do you know! For 80 res the aliens get acces to their midgame fighter right away, they don't have to share resources so instead of handing out the midgame as they get the money, they can ALL GO AT THE SAME TIME, and they get new attacks for the other aliens including one that MAKES THEM NEARLY IMMUNE TO BULLETS, and they can CHOOSE which upgrade they want for a miserable 2 resources, which can make them attack and run faster, or if they're smart, live for neigh forever!
Man Arm's Labs should cost 150 res just to make it fair, right?
<!--QuoteBegin---_Phoenix_-+Jan 15 2003, 08:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-_Phoenix_- @ Jan 15 2003, 08:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the res cost for fades has been increased, won't that make it even <b>more</b> exciting and dangerous ?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Don't try to get around the swear filter any more or you'll be banned.</b>
Not for the Marines, to whom I was referring it would make the game less exciting and dangerous.
Also it's "than" not "then in the context you used in the second reply.
Furthermore, I don't care enough to reply to silly responses full of empty postulating instead of actual facts such as, "Maybe it's how they want it." That doesn't suddenly make it the best way to do it, hence why I'm questioning it - I don't agree that raising the cost of Fades is an effective or proper way to balance them. As I clearly explained I feel it is doing the wrong thing when there are so many other ways to balance Fades that simply and directly address the EXACT issues the Marines in general have with them instead of just ruining the aliens by making them cost more and therefore chain-react effecting so many other aspects of the game for the already-underpowered-in-early-to-mid-game alien team.
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Jan 16 2003, 03:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Jan 16 2003, 03:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You people seem to think the Fade is supposed to be the game-ender.
<b>IT'S NOT</b>
It's supposed to be for the fight for the 3rd hive, so that you CAN end the game!
When the marines get HA and HMG, they're at the TOP of their Tech-Bonsai Tree. Aliens are only halfway. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> THUS there is no LOGICAL reason to further delay and impede the alien progress to reaching the Fade level of evolution, since it is not even the final evolutionary step.
Instead the LOGICAL way to fix the issues with the Fade in the context of where it lies on the evolutionary tree is to fix the ACTUAL issues with it - speed, power of acid rocket, carapace overly strong (addressed finally). splash damage of acid rocket, and the other issues Marine players tend to bring up about it. Instead what they've essentially done is just what you're saying - made it a later-game creature by delaying its appearance and frequency.
By doing this cost increase they also further weaken an already weak alien early-to-mid game time period by delaying Fades further in time. I say "futher" for the blindingly obvious reasons that get discussed here every day such as the aliens having a slower respawn rate and how a single marine is much more than a single skulk, etc.
So you sort of just argued against your own point in several ways. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Kilmster+Jan 16 2003, 05:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kilmster @ Jan 16 2003, 05:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not going to even read this whole topic, because most of it is probably whining about the cost of fades.
I'm just going to say this: At least fades aren't dominating the game within the first 15-20 minutes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's right they don't, and now delaying them further just means aliens won't have a chance for the first 20-2<b>5</b> minutes. Smooth. Wonderful. I'll be playing Marines. You aliens enjoy not being able to fade while we rape your hives and our being able to kill you easier even with max carapace (which is definitely a NEEDED change, unlike the cost increase)! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Personally games of late ive found that if the marines get 2 hives, they win. if the aliens get 2 hives, they win. This leads to groups of marines supported by phasegates running about capping hives during the first 5 minutes. Personally ive always thought the game would be best if the aliens got a hive and the marines got a hive. However there is the unfortunate detriment that a fade or 2 can smash any defense the marines can muster. So id think it would be best if the marines got a few extra toys, i mean there is a large gap between ha and hmgs and lmgs and la. Id prefer to mainly see a larger damage output for the marines quickly, say some sort of rifle that could be distributed to paralell the fades acid rockets and make it so a smart group of marines could quickly and dispatch 1 or 2 fades without having to call in larger weapons like gls or hmgs which usually are only distributed to 2-3 people before the fades bowl over everyone.
endline : i think marines get their best toys too late in the game to be effective, add some stuff in between the marines tech lines and leave the aliens alone.
uhm. Naah, even if they would raise the cost of fades even higher it would not make me stop playing on alien team. I dont care much, as long as its fun (no matter which side wins).
I guess, NS team wants us to fight over resource nozzles in early/half -game instead of trying to dominate the hives. Probably the 5min games are gone when this patch arrives, which would be good.
I'm starting to think my problem is my impartiality and willingness to play on either team. All of the issues around here come from players who prefer playing one team or the other and want everything to be as fun and easy for their team as possible at the expense of the other team.
Yes, most people will deny that but it's the reality if you read the majority of the posts around here from an objective point of view.
I do my best to suggest things and stand up for features/preferences/settings I believe offer the best level of equality for both teams, as I enjoy playing both. I am sure in the end (maybe like 10 patches from now) things will actually be enjoyably balanced and fun and exciting new weapons and features will be added for both teams, and new maps will be added, and current maps fixed.
But the current patch that's in progress (1.04) leaves a lot to be desired. It does fix a few major issues (phasegate using action key to teleport you now, alien spawnrate slightly faster, fade carapace reduced, moving the "team-imbalance=game-end" to a server-side option instead of hardcoded into the mod, siege uses Marine LOS and slightly reduced range, umbra effectiveness reduced, etc) but seems to be adding several new things that will have to just be removed in a later patch because they haven't been fully play-tested and unless the issues with them are acknowledged soon, they will stay in the patch when it is released.
Arrrgggghhh! Some people here are pushing me to the point where I'm going to start calling names. If you people get me banned, I'm going to even more annoyed. 1.04e is beta. That means they are trying things out, so they can see how they work. Now, consider this thread in this context. People are arguing that they think the changes made will make the game worse. The developers, however, being generally far more practical and sensible than a lot of the people on these boards, are actually trying it out. Can you see now how completely pointless all your arguments are now? If you're right, the dev's will see this while spectating/playing in the beta servers, and change things back. If you're wrong, the changes will stay in. I mean really, what, do you thinks going to happen.
Dev 1: The latest beta's the best yet! Peoples' face muscles are going into spasm because they cannot stop smiling! I've had three marriage proposals already! Dev 2:(monotone) I have seen a well written argument against the changes in the new beta. Dev 1: Oh, we should go back to v1.00 then.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>sorry if this is terribly unfunny, its one of the hazards of posting just after you get back from the pub </span>
well one thing I have noticed happening in 1.03 is the marines will relocate their base to a hive. They then have to defend one spot instead of a hive and their main base. This almost eliminates the thrid hive as an option unless you pretty much destroy their base anyways, in which case you win.
So what is happening is the mid game action becomes the end game action.
The out come is one of two things: 1) the fades take out enough resource portals that the marines can't afford HA and the fades win the game 2) the marines get HA and then stomp the fades. Without the last weapon for the fades, or Onos, its pretty much a walk in the park for the marines to walk to a hive and seige it. (even with LOS, the HA will allow a group of troops to walk into most hives due to the max number of offense chambers in an area, (plus you have the slow fire rate and bad aim of offence chambers)
Some people may like this, but I don't. I think that if that 3rd hive is pretty much out for the count, then the fades need all they can have, otherwise the games will just be drawn out even longer then they are now, which many times is way past the point where one team "should" know they have lost. (the aliens do seem to have an advantage in my mind, but if the fades are going to be harder to get, have less armor, I think maybe they need a better base seige weapon with 2 hives...)
(this is mostly in small games of 12 or less players, so maybe the balance in larger games is differant.)
<!--QuoteBegin--QuietMischief1+Jan 15 2003, 07:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (QuietMischief1 @ Jan 15 2003, 07:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Mainly because Marine's still can't kill Skulks with their LMG.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its not that hard to kill a skulk, you just have to think a little and stop rushing right towards them. im still used to FLF and end up rushing alot <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--mojojojo+Jan 16 2003, 07:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mojojojo @ Jan 16 2003, 07:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Arrrgggghhh! Some people here are pushing me to the point where I'm going to start calling names. If you people get me banned, I'm going to even more annoyed. 1.04e is beta. That means they are trying things out, so they can see how they work. Now, consider this thread in this context. People are arguing that they think the changes made will make the game worse. The developers, however, being generally far more practical and sensible than a lot of the people on these boards, are actually trying it out. Can you see now how completely pointless all your arguments are now? If you're right, the dev's will see this while spectating/playing in the beta servers, and change things back. If you're wrong, the changes will stay in. I mean really, what, do you thinks going to happen. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, sir, if the only input on what changes are kept and what changes aren't is based solely upon what the devs find in their own playing of the mod, there would not be a Discussion forum, only a bug report forum. The mere presence of this forum begs player feedback and discussion of changes.
I take it you don't appreciate player discussion of changes, which is fine but then perhaps you shouldn't read this forum since a lot of discussion goes on here (psst, look at the title of the forum).
Actually aliens are losing BIG time in 1.04e, and the fade cost is only a part of the problem. The 'rebuild hive dies with one bullet' bug is KILLING the alien game completetly. Basically it means that if the aliens EVER lose a hive, then they can never rebuild it. (if the marines have even a tiny amount of competence, they will prevail)
Played 10 games on 1.04e as alien. Won 2 lost 8. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
The only time we won was when the marine comm was a noob. While this patch may help to balance clan play, it's destroying pub play/balance.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->WOW! What do you know! For 80 res the aliens get acces to their midgame fighter right away, they don't have to share resources so instead of handing out the midgame as they get the money, they can ALL GO AT THE SAME TIME, and they get new attacks for the other aliens including one that MAKES THEM NEARLY IMMUNE TO BULLETS, and they can CHOOSE which upgrade they want for a miserable 2 resources, which can make them attack and run faster, or if they're smart, live for neigh forever!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you have 80 res, then you have 3 hives, at which point Marines are already screwed.
Your right, Aliens don't share resources, they SPLIT resources. Marines will get res faster with 2 nodes then Aliens will get with 4. The fact they all go to 1 person is even better, no lame **** Gorges building crap all over the place, you can always kick a comm.
They are not made immune to bullets, did you not read the patch notes? They nerfed Umbra, if anything now its just a minor inconvieniece. Yes, they can choose what upgrades they want...thats part of playing Aliens. They also nerfed Carapace last patch, Sensory is all but useless aside from Cloaking, and Movement is only good for Adrenaline for a Fade...its pretty much required you get Adrenaline if you plan to use Acid Rockets at all.
They can't live "neigh forever", LMG/HA/GL/Pistol/Welder/Knife are all still able to kill Fades. Its just alot of newbs are afraid of losing their weapon, or waiting to respawn, so as soon as they see a Fade they run and camp the armory...leading to a quick loss. And more blame goes to "OMG FADES R 0VRPWOERD!!"...Leave the frikin base and rush a Fade if you see one...what do you have to lose?
Theres nothing im sick of more then people saying Fades are overpowered simply because everyones afraid to rush them.
I don't use a lerk as I don't find it that much better then a skulk which is free. Sure it can fly, but a skulk can walk on walls and ceilings. The lerk is an ok support unit if you have umbra, but other then that, why bother.
Maybe if the ranged weapon (darts or quills or whatever it is) of the lerk wasn't so crappy, more people would use it.
Oh good grief, i just find out about the increase in fade price. THis is going to be quite more of a difficulty for the aliens team to win. As it is, its very often difficult for aliens to get even the second hive, since, by the time that their have enough resource to get asecond hive either: 1. The marines are attacking the primary hive. 2. The marines are already in their second hive. This days its very hard to get the second hive, as marines are now rushing with phase gates within the first few minutes of a game, and often securing 2 hives before the first gorge has his resources for 2nd hive. This is compounded if the marines captain decides to research HMG early. In which case its virtually impossible to get a second hive, or to keep it if you get it. Aliens are really in need of fades even earlier in the game in the current environment.
As for the lurk, i really hope they have not nerfed umbra, as it is pretty much the only use for a lurk. The spikes suck, and the bite is less good, since lurk has even less health than a skulk. Perhaps if the spikes were improved, the lurk would be more useful, but right now its only good to provide a shield for fades.
Fades are harder to obtain, definately. The whole team doesn't mutate into fades 1 minute after the second hive goes up, which is how it worked before. Instead, they have to defend their two hives as skulks for awhile.
However, once the Aliens have managed to secure Fades, the tide starts turning on the marines and they are cut down just like before. However, the aliens have to be alot more careful. If they lose their Fade, they can't reevolve into them quite as easily as they could before.
It's my opinion that this is a quick fix, and not a bad one. It makes resources more important to the aliens, and I would like to see more of that battle push towards control of resource nozzles. However, at teh same time, it's sort of a step in the wrong direction.
Here's two things that bother me:
First off, fades are still too damn powerful. Some people disagree with me, but really, they do it in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. The Fade's ability to rapidly spam pinpoint accurate long range area of effect acid rockets and quickly escape to get healed is absolutely unbeaten by anything else on the field.
The fact of the matter is, a Fade with lvl 3 Carapace and Lvl 3 Adreneline is END GAME firepower. Skillful fades acting in concert can easily able to remove whole formations of light armored marines even with lvl 3 weapon and armor upgrades, and slowly wear down formations of heavily armored Marines. The Onos is completely unneccessary, and it's rare a game lasts before the Onos is even brought to bear.
I'm not a pro-marine supporter, and this brings me to point two: One hive aliens can be pushovers for a skilled team of marines largely regardless of alien team skill.
Trying to prevent marines from securing your hives when you only have one hive is a masochistic and often futile experience. Capable groups of alert, skilled, but only LMG packing marines can overpower any number of skulks.
Ultimately, it comes down to this:
<b>There needs to be less of a jump between the aliens power at 1 hive and 2 hives.</b> As things stand one hive is too weak, two hives is too powerful, and three hives is completely unneccessarily.
I hear alot of people say that lerks suck. Ive found this to not be true at all. IMO Lerks take the most skill to play in the game. Ive gotten alot of kills as lerk but ONLy after the 2nd hive is up, and I have the ability to use umbra. All you have to do is this, (this will require lvl 3 adrenilin, otherwise lerk does kind of suck ^_^) when you see a marine blast 1 or 2 umbra clouds, one where youre at then walk about 3 feet and shoot another. If the marine charges you shooting just bite the hell out of him, and he dies. But, some marines will instantly pull the knife out and stab you. If yer prety good you can kill him with bites before he gets ya with the knife. Or you can just jump backwards and unload spikes while he has his knife out. Most smart, or experinced marines will run ff some when they see the umbra, just use your spikes when they run. I always thought spikes sucked as well, but i found they are pretty dam strong if used correctly. I play with a guy all the time that is a VERY good lerk, hes killed me many many times when i was marine. So, my summary of lerks is, only realy good with lots of practice, 2 hives, and lvl 3 adrenilin.
Perhaps because he LIKES lerks. Perhaps because he thinks TEAMPLAY and not "MUST GET THE MOSTEST FRAGS EVAR!". A lerk supporting two fades is a stronger combination than 3 fades. They can rocket spam from inside the umbra, or the lerk can fly up to the tf, spew umbra and the fades can help tear it down while the turrets fire tirelessly at them for little damage.
sorry man but we have to remember this is a team game!!!! A fade is terrible but a fade with a lerk and a gorge(Funny animal farm:)) are invincible. a lerk alone with the umbra can destroy a human base!!! and a gorge with web can kill a lot of marines!! All the teams have to play togheter. No go headed alone build a group. at the begun of game chose a team "friend" and go always in two! the only way for kill the rushing fade in base is the japanese stile: KAMIKAZE (SORRY FOR MY ENGLISH BUT I'M ITALIAN AND I START STUDY THIS LANGUAGE ONLY NOW ehehe). Thx for your attenction
I guess if you're a pub player maybe you never see people using lerks and you would get the WRONG IMPRESSION that they are never used.
Actually, on non-pub servers, where people DO use teamwork and such, there are people going lerk all throughout the game. In fact, in one game last night, a player went 76/15 score-wise with an active lerk (as opposed to a sniper lerk) because he is THAT F-CKING SKILLED with it. I mean it was awesome to see him umbra'ing and then scooting around the floor biting all the Marines and occasionally shooting them with Spikes up close and personal. Amazing stuff.
Also I love all the people saying, "whatever man uh we played 1.04e and the aliens STILL won all the games hurrr."
One of two things:
1 - You really DIDN'T play 1.04e 2 - You played a game of top-of-the-line alien players versus a Marine team made up of blind deaf-mutes.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--Kilmster+Jan 16 2003, 06:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kilmster @ Jan 16 2003, 06:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I love playing lerk too immocolata, i'm just trying to see why you would bother; its barely necessary to even have a lerk in 1.03 except as a novelty. Very few situations arrive in 1.03 where having a lerk really makes much of a difference in pub games.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, games end really fast if 2 fades/1 gorge/1 lerk teams up outside the marine base...
But yea, on pub games, you will still win even if you don't use much teamwork. Whether this is due to fades being too powerful on their own, or marines just sucking too hard, or the marine commander using the wrong strat could be debated.
As seen yesterday by flayra himself, the marine rush is far from gone. We destroyed a few clans yesterday with it. The only thing 20Regen does is stop us from rushing the gorge under the hive, as hes damn near impossible to kill without the skulks spawning =\
This probably won't be taken care of until the Marines are not so obligated to conquer two hives in order to survive.
Lets face it: can marines overpower the aliens once they have fades, ever? It would say yes, but only if the following conditions are met:
1. The Marines are highly coordinated, with a capable commander and marines following orders well. 2. The Marines have end game technology and equipment at their disposal. (That is, motion tracking, 3x upgrade of both wepaons and armor, heavy armor, welds, heavy weapons (both grenade launchers AND HMGs to handle long range and short range fade threats).) Plus, they need to know how to use their equipment - Heavy armor is next to worthless if nobody ever welds it, little better than a lighty armored 3x armor upgraded marine.
However, there's a number of holes I can shoot into these conditions.
Trying to get a highly coordinated team of marines together on a public server is difficult at best. The usual rabble has about 50-75% of the players understanding they need to work together to succeed, the remaining amount runs around and shoots things (which isn't neccessarily bad in limited quantities). Capable commanders are rarer still, but a skilled team of marines can compensate for this somewhat.
Trying to get a steady stream of technology is a near impossibility for the Marines. The problem is that any half-decent team of aliens knows to rove around and eat any resources nozzles the marines build. It takes both a turret farm and a marine or two to hold a resource nozzle against any dedicated skulk/lerk rushes. That's too bad, because building turret farms takes too much money and time better spent elsewhere.
Of course once the aliens have Fades, any defences the Marines have might as well be swiss cheese. Thereby removing the Marine's income, which is bad because even if all conditions are met the Marines are still going to experience losses, which combined with no income means the marines are once again helpless against the Fades.
So it's it's little wonder that Fades rock marines most games. In most games, the Marines are rarely able to afford the equipment they need to overcome Fades, and even if they did have that equiment they need to be very well skilled in order to overcome any real fade opposition.
There's something for those who claim that the Marine's fault is that they rushed the hives. Fact of the matter is, Marines rush hives as a lone means to survival, not because they chose to go for an easy win.
yesterday i was comm. and we won a game that we should not have. they had 2 hives, we had a bad start, and a weak team with 2 star players.
But since it takes more time to get fades now, we where able to get into the 2nd hive. after that we just held on till i was able to get hmgs and hvy machine gun ( some 40 min later - aliens where putting on a good fight)
this is what i think happened in v1.04x. they weakened the siege, which disbalanced the game. So they tried to nerf the aliens to rebalance the game. So they nerfed marines again (via higher costs and weakened phase) So they nerfed fades by increasing he cost...
I think they should leave all the nice bug fixes that 1.04 brought, but rebalance the game to the way it was in 1.03. It would stop all this madness.
1.02 was good, but 1.03 fixxed the AOE damage on acid rockets and bile bombs.
It was the acid rocket that really screwed the marines over. In 1.02 it was enhanced to allow Fades to become viable, but once the AOE damage was back in place the acid rockets can spam the marines all over the walls easily.
Siege Cannons were cheap, the LOS nerf was overdue. Even so, it's not much of a nerf - the commander can still ping what his marines can't see.
i don't think that sieges are cheap or ever where. But now i do think that sieges are no longer a viable option for taking down a base. instead used to protect already protected bases. I say this because for the cost of a siege base i could have 4 hvy with hmgs, which works better then 1 seiges, for the cost of ping over and over again plus the cost of 2 more sieges, i could have hvy+hmg if not 7. an team of 4-6 marines with hvy and hmg, are close to unstopable when taking a hive down.
I don't know why you say that. The cost of the siege has only increased by 10.
The LOS restriction is the only real nerf the siege underwent, and it's easily circumvented by pinging the destination. A 3 cost ping will generate enough revealed time to shoot a target twice. I can take down a hive in usually less than 5 pings.
The siege is still quite a useful tool for removing walls of arse or shooting through walls when it's easier than walking there. Also it's ability to be used as a defencive measure is more a requirement than a reduced role. Gorge offencive chamber rushing can draw the fire of an entire turret farm.
Comments
Level 1, 2 weapons (and level 1 armor) - 80 res<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WOW! What do you know! For 80 res the aliens get acces to their midgame fighter right away, they don't have to share resources so instead of handing out the midgame as they get the money, they can ALL GO AT THE SAME TIME, and they get new attacks for the other aliens including one that MAKES THEM NEARLY IMMUNE TO BULLETS, and they can CHOOSE which upgrade they want for a miserable 2 resources, which can make them attack and run faster, or if they're smart, live for neigh forever!
Man Arm's Labs should cost 150 res just to make it fair, right?
<b>Don't try to get around the swear filter any more or you'll be banned.</b>
Not for the Marines, to whom I was referring it would make the game less exciting and dangerous.
Also it's "than" not "then in the context you used in the second reply.
Furthermore, I don't care enough to reply to silly responses full of empty postulating instead of actual facts such as, "Maybe it's how they want it." That doesn't suddenly make it the best way to do it, hence why I'm questioning it - I don't agree that raising the cost of Fades is an effective or proper way to balance them. As I clearly explained I feel it is doing the wrong thing when there are so many other ways to balance Fades that simply and directly address the EXACT issues the Marines in general have with them instead of just ruining the aliens by making them cost more and therefore chain-react effecting so many other aspects of the game for the already-underpowered-in-early-to-mid-game alien team.
<b>IT'S NOT</b>
It's supposed to be for the fight for the 3rd hive, so that you CAN end the game!
When the marines get HA and HMG, they're at the TOP of their Tech-Bonsai Tree. Aliens are only halfway.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THUS there is no LOGICAL reason to further delay and impede the alien progress to reaching the Fade level of evolution, since it is not even the final evolutionary step.
Instead the LOGICAL way to fix the issues with the Fade in the context of where it lies on the evolutionary tree is to fix the ACTUAL issues with it - speed, power of acid rocket, carapace overly strong (addressed finally). splash damage of acid rocket, and the other issues Marine players tend to bring up about it. Instead what they've essentially done is just what you're saying - made it a later-game creature by delaying its appearance and frequency.
By doing this cost increase they also further weaken an already weak alien early-to-mid game time period by delaying Fades further in time.
I say "futher" for the blindingly obvious reasons that get discussed here every day such as the aliens having a slower respawn rate and how a single marine is much more than a single skulk, etc.
So you sort of just argued against your own point in several ways. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm just going to say this: At least fades aren't dominating the game within the first 15-20 minutes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's right they don't, and now delaying them further just means aliens won't have a chance for the first 20-2<b>5</b> minutes. Smooth. Wonderful. I'll be playing Marines. You aliens enjoy not being able to fade while we rape your hives and our being able to kill you easier even with max carapace (which is definitely a NEEDED change, unlike the cost increase)! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
endline : i think marines get their best toys too late in the game to be effective, add some stuff in between the marines tech lines and leave the aliens alone.
I guess, NS team wants us to fight over resource nozzles in early/half -game instead of trying to dominate the hives. Probably the 5min games are gone when this patch arrives, which would be good.
But it remains to be seen.
Yes, most people will deny that but it's the reality if you read the majority of the posts around here from an objective point of view.
I do my best to suggest things and stand up for features/preferences/settings I believe offer the best level of equality for both teams, as I enjoy playing both. I am sure in the end (maybe like 10 patches from now) things will actually be enjoyably balanced and fun and exciting new weapons and features will be added for both teams, and new maps will be added, and current maps fixed.
But the current patch that's in progress (1.04) leaves a lot to be desired. It does fix a few major issues (phasegate using action key to teleport you now, alien spawnrate slightly faster, fade carapace reduced, moving the "team-imbalance=game-end" to a server-side option instead of hardcoded into the mod, siege uses Marine LOS and slightly reduced range, umbra effectiveness reduced, etc) but seems to be adding several new things that will have to just be removed in a later patch because they haven't been fully play-tested and unless the issues with them are acknowledged soon, they will stay in the patch when it is released.
1.04e is beta. That means they are trying things out, so they can see how they work.
Now, consider this thread in this context. People are arguing that they think the changes made will make the game worse. The developers, however, being generally far more practical and sensible than a lot of the people on these boards, are actually trying it out.
Can you see now how completely pointless all your arguments are now? If you're right, the dev's will see this while spectating/playing in the beta servers, and change things back. If you're wrong, the changes will stay in.
I mean really, what, do you thinks going to happen.
Dev 1: The latest beta's the best yet! Peoples' face muscles are going into spasm because they cannot stop smiling! I've had three marriage proposals already!
Dev 2:(monotone) I have seen a well written argument against the changes in the new beta.
Dev 1: Oh, we should go back to v1.00 then.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>sorry if this is terribly unfunny, its one of the hazards of posting just after you get back from the pub </span>
This almost eliminates the thrid hive as an option unless you pretty much destroy their base anyways, in which case you win.
So what is happening is the mid game action becomes the end game action.
The out come is one of two things:
1) the fades take out enough resource portals that the marines can't afford HA and the fades win the game
2) the marines get HA and then stomp the fades. Without the last weapon for the fades, or Onos, its pretty much a walk in the park for the marines to walk to a hive and seige it. (even with LOS, the HA will allow a group of troops to walk into most hives due to the max number of offense chambers in an area, (plus you have the slow fire rate and bad aim of offence chambers)
Some people may like this, but I don't. I think that if that 3rd hive is pretty much out for the count, then the fades need all they can have, otherwise the games will just be drawn out even longer then they are now, which many times is way past the point where one team "should" know they have lost.
(the aliens do seem to have an advantage in my mind, but if the fades are going to be harder to get, have less armor, I think maybe they need a better base seige weapon with 2 hives...)
(this is mostly in small games of 12 or less players, so maybe the balance in larger games is differant.)
Its not that hard to kill a skulk, you just have to think a little and stop rushing right towards them. im still used to FLF and end up rushing alot <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
1.04e is beta. That means they are trying things out, so they can see how they work.
Now, consider this thread in this context. People are arguing that they think the changes made will make the game worse. The developers, however, being generally far more practical and sensible than a lot of the people on these boards, are actually trying it out.
Can you see now how completely pointless all your arguments are now? If you're right, the dev's will see this while spectating/playing in the beta servers, and change things back. If you're wrong, the changes will stay in.
I mean really, what, do you thinks going to happen.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, sir, if the only input on what changes are kept and what changes aren't is based solely upon what the devs find in their own playing of the mod, there would not be a Discussion forum, only a bug report forum. The mere presence of this forum begs player feedback and discussion of changes.
I take it you don't appreciate player discussion of changes, which is fine but then perhaps you shouldn't read this forum since a lot of discussion goes on here (psst, look at the title of the forum).
So you are wrong, but thanks for playing.
Played 10 games on 1.04e as alien. Won 2 lost 8. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
The only time we won was when the marine comm was a noob. While this patch may help to balance clan play, it's destroying pub play/balance.
Regards,
Savant
If you have 80 res, then you have 3 hives, at which point Marines are already screwed.
Your right, Aliens don't share resources, they SPLIT resources. Marines will get res faster with 2 nodes then Aliens will get with 4. The fact they all go to 1 person is even better, no lame **** Gorges building crap all over the place, you can always kick a comm.
They are not made immune to bullets, did you not read the patch notes? They nerfed Umbra, if anything now its just a minor inconvieniece. Yes, they can choose what upgrades they want...thats part of playing Aliens. They also nerfed Carapace last patch, Sensory is all but useless aside from Cloaking, and Movement is only good for Adrenaline for a Fade...its pretty much required you get Adrenaline if you plan to use Acid Rockets at all.
They can't live "neigh forever", LMG/HA/GL/Pistol/Welder/Knife are all still able to kill Fades. Its just alot of newbs are afraid of losing their weapon, or waiting to respawn, so as soon as they see a Fade they run and camp the armory...leading to a quick loss. And more blame goes to "OMG FADES R 0VRPWOERD!!"...Leave the frikin base and rush a Fade if you see one...what do you have to lose?
Theres nothing im sick of more then people saying Fades are overpowered simply because everyones afraid to rush them.
Maybe if the ranged weapon (darts or quills or whatever it is) of the lerk wasn't so crappy, more people would use it.
1. The marines are attacking the primary hive.
2. The marines are already in their second hive.
This days its very hard to get the second hive, as marines are now rushing with phase gates within the first few minutes of a game, and often securing 2 hives before the first gorge has his resources for 2nd hive. This is compounded if the marines captain decides to research HMG early. In which case its virtually impossible to get a second hive, or to keep it if you get it. Aliens are really in need of fades even earlier in the game in the current environment.
As for the lurk, i really hope they have not nerfed umbra, as it is pretty much the only use for a lurk. The spikes suck, and the bite is less good, since lurk has even less health than a skulk. Perhaps if the spikes were improved, the lurk would be more useful, but right now its only good to provide a shield for fades.
Fades are harder to obtain, definately. The whole team doesn't mutate into fades 1 minute after the second hive goes up, which is how it worked before. Instead, they have to defend their two hives as skulks for awhile.
However, once the Aliens have managed to secure Fades, the tide starts turning on the marines and they are cut down just like before. However, the aliens have to be alot more careful. If they lose their Fade, they can't reevolve into them quite as easily as they could before.
It's my opinion that this is a quick fix, and not a bad one. It makes resources more important to the aliens, and I would like to see more of that battle push towards control of resource nozzles. However, at teh same time, it's sort of a step in the wrong direction.
Here's two things that bother me:
First off, fades are still too damn powerful. Some people disagree with me, but really, they do it in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. The Fade's ability to rapidly spam pinpoint accurate long range area of effect acid rockets and quickly escape to get healed is absolutely unbeaten by anything else on the field.
The fact of the matter is, a Fade with lvl 3 Carapace and Lvl 3 Adreneline is END GAME firepower. Skillful fades acting in concert can easily able to remove whole formations of light armored marines even with lvl 3 weapon and armor upgrades, and slowly wear down formations of heavily armored Marines. The Onos is completely unneccessary, and it's rare a game lasts before the Onos is even brought to bear.
I'm not a pro-marine supporter, and this brings me to point two: One hive aliens can be pushovers for a skilled team of marines largely regardless of alien team skill.
Trying to prevent marines from securing your hives when you only have one hive is a masochistic and often futile experience. Capable groups of alert, skilled, but only LMG packing marines can overpower any number of skulks.
Ultimately, it comes down to this:
<b>There needs to be less of a jump between the aliens power at 1 hive and 2 hives.</b> As things stand one hive is too weak, two hives is too powerful, and three hives is completely unneccessarily.
IMO Lerks take the most skill to play in the game. Ive gotten alot of kills as lerk but ONLy after the 2nd hive is up, and I have the ability to use umbra.
All you have to do is this, (this will require lvl 3 adrenilin, otherwise lerk does kind of suck ^_^) when you see a marine blast 1 or 2 umbra clouds, one where youre at then walk about 3 feet and shoot another.
If the marine charges you shooting just bite the hell out of him, and he dies.
But, some marines will instantly pull the knife out and stab you. If yer prety good you can kill him with bites before he gets ya with the knife. Or you can just jump backwards and unload spikes while he has his knife out.
Most smart, or experinced marines will run ff some when they see the umbra, just use your spikes when they run.
I always thought spikes sucked as well, but i found they are pretty dam strong if used correctly.
I play with a guy all the time that is a VERY good lerk, hes killed me many many times when i was marine.
So, my summary of lerks is, only realy good with lots of practice, 2 hives, and lvl 3 adrenilin.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->MOSTEST FRAGS EVAR!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
around here... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Lerks are cool. They're my little friends. They make me live when stoof in the middle of a farm eating the factory. I likeses lerkses.
A fade is terrible but a fade with a lerk and a gorge(Funny animal farm:)) are invincible.
a lerk alone with the umbra can destroy a human base!!!
and a gorge with web can kill a lot of marines!!
All the teams have to play togheter. No go headed alone build a group. at the begun of game chose a team "friend" and go always in two!
the only way for kill the rushing fade in base is the japanese stile: KAMIKAZE
(SORRY FOR MY ENGLISH BUT I'M ITALIAN AND I START STUDY THIS LANGUAGE ONLY NOW ehehe).
Thx for your attenction
Actually, on non-pub servers, where people DO use teamwork and such, there are people going lerk all throughout the game. In fact, in one game last night, a player went 76/15 score-wise with an active lerk (as opposed to a sniper lerk) because he is THAT F-CKING SKILLED with it. I mean it was awesome to see him umbra'ing and then scooting around the floor biting all the Marines and occasionally shooting them with Spikes up close and personal. Amazing stuff.
Also I love all the people saying, "whatever man uh we played 1.04e and the aliens STILL won all the games hurrr."
One of two things:
1 - You really DIDN'T play 1.04e
2 - You played a game of top-of-the-line alien players versus a Marine team made up of blind deaf-mutes.
Pick one.
Well, games end really fast if 2 fades/1 gorge/1 lerk teams up outside the marine base...
But yea, on pub games, you will still win even if you don't use much teamwork. Whether this is due to fades being too powerful on their own, or marines just sucking too hard, or the marine commander using the wrong strat could be debated.
This probably won't be taken care of until the Marines are not so obligated to conquer two hives in order to survive.
Lets face it: can marines overpower the aliens once they have fades, ever?
It would say yes, but only if the following conditions are met:
1. The Marines are highly coordinated, with a capable commander and marines following orders well.
2. The Marines have end game technology and equipment at their disposal. (That is, motion tracking, 3x upgrade of both wepaons and armor, heavy armor, welds, heavy weapons (both grenade launchers AND HMGs to handle long range and short range fade threats).) Plus, they need to know how to use their equipment - Heavy armor is next to worthless if nobody ever welds it, little better than a lighty armored 3x armor upgraded marine.
However, there's a number of holes I can shoot into these conditions.
Trying to get a highly coordinated team of marines together on a public server is difficult at best. The usual rabble has about 50-75% of the players understanding they need to work together to succeed, the remaining amount runs around and shoots things (which isn't neccessarily bad in limited quantities). Capable commanders are rarer still, but a skilled team of marines can compensate for this somewhat.
Trying to get a steady stream of technology is a near impossibility for the Marines. The problem is that any half-decent team of aliens knows to rove around and eat any resources nozzles the marines build. It takes both a turret farm and a marine or two to hold a resource nozzle against any dedicated skulk/lerk rushes. That's too bad, because building turret farms takes too much money and time better spent elsewhere.
Of course once the aliens have Fades, any defences the Marines have might as well be swiss cheese. Thereby removing the Marine's income, which is bad because even if all conditions are met the Marines are still going to experience losses, which combined with no income means the marines are once again helpless against the Fades.
So it's it's little wonder that Fades rock marines most games. In most games, the Marines are rarely able to afford the equipment they need to overcome Fades, and even if they did have that equiment they need to be very well skilled in order to overcome any real fade opposition.
There's something for those who claim that the Marine's fault is that they rushed the hives. Fact of the matter is, Marines rush hives as a lone means to survival, not because they chose to go for an easy win.
yesterday i was comm. and we won a game that we should not have. they had 2 hives, we had a bad start, and a weak team with 2 star players.
But since it takes more time to get fades now, we where able to get into the 2nd hive. after that we just held on till i was able to get hmgs and hvy machine gun ( some 40 min later - aliens where putting on a good fight)
this is what i think happened in v1.04x.
they weakened the siege, which disbalanced the game. So they tried to nerf the aliens to rebalance the game. So they nerfed marines again (via higher costs and weakened phase) So they nerfed fades by increasing he cost...
I think they should leave all the nice bug fixes that 1.04 brought, but rebalance the game to the way it was in 1.03. It would stop all this madness.
1.02 was good, but 1.03 fixxed the AOE damage on acid rockets and bile bombs.
It was the acid rocket that really screwed the marines over. In 1.02 it was enhanced to allow Fades to become viable, but once the AOE damage was back in place the acid rockets can spam the marines all over the walls easily.
Siege Cannons were cheap, the LOS nerf was overdue. Even so, it's not much of a nerf - the commander can still ping what his marines can't see.
The LOS restriction is the only real nerf the siege underwent, and it's easily circumvented by pinging the destination. A 3 cost ping will generate enough revealed time to shoot a target twice. I can take down a hive in usually less than 5 pings.
The siege is still quite a useful tool for removing walls of arse or shooting through walls when it's easier than walking there. Also it's ability to be used as a defencive measure is more a requirement than a reduced role. Gorge offencive chamber rushing can draw the fire of an entire turret farm.