Marine Sprint Changes

Deck_Deck_ Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Members Posts: 298 Advanced user
edited August 2016 in Ideas and Suggestions
There has been recent discussion on discord about how to change marine sprint. The idea is, marines are expanding too fast and getting into good positions too quickly for aliens. Idea for changes to marine sprint, this reduces marine top speed from what is in the game currently:

1) Remove the sprint button and replace it with a walk button.
2) The new way to sprint/run would be to move forward. Moving forward would be a running animation. Your top speed would be the same as normal movement speed now or slightly faster, but definitely slower than sprint speed in the game currently. When you strafe or do other things, you would move at the same speed as before.
3) The new walk would be slightly faster than crouch moving, so there is some difference there and some advantage to standing up as opposed to crouching.

I was thinking this also could have the added benefit of allowing new players an easy way to be silent and sneaky as marines. I think having a walk button is good as it would be easily understandable that you aren't making noise. Also, moving forward with a running/sprint animation would make the player not feel as slow as just removing sprint from the game and having no running aspect to it.

Thoughts?
Post edited by Deck_ on
Bicsum

Comments

  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 770 Advanced user
    What exactly do you mean by running animation. You won't be able to shoot while moving forward??
  • Deck_Deck_ Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Members Posts: 298 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    I think it would be very similar to sprinting now. I think you would have to allow the player to shoot while doing it. So maybe you would slow down a little from top speed while shooting.
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,477 Advanced user
    I'm in the always been against sprint category. Especially because it prevents the use of a weapon. Would be more into it if had energy instead and you can still shoot, so you can do some sweet moves to dodge skulks and fades type thing.

    There's alot of times where rookies and vets and comp players alike all die while sprinting, because they feel like they have to take advantage. It's very frustrating and not a lot of people understand when to simply not sprint at all with a shotgun.

    Sprint also adds complexity to map-timing designs that I'd say is an unnecessary barrier to properly balancing a map.
    mattji104
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 770 Advanced user
    Deck_ wrote: »
    I think it would be very similar to sprinting now. I think you would have to allow the player to shoot while doing it. So maybe you would slow down a little from top speed while shooting.

    I think that would be extremely annoying. Pressing W should have no more effect than simply moving forward.

    You want to remove sprint. Then remove it and don't make the default movement worse. The "new" sprint would in fact be simpler version of the old sprint without the option to run normally and without the option to decide when to use it. It sounds more like it is made for being a compromise when there shouldn't be one.

    Imo you should either 1) keep sprint on shift key and nerf it or 2) remove sprint completely.
  • Deck_Deck_ Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Members Posts: 298 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    Deck_ wrote: »
    I think it would be very similar to sprinting now. I think you would have to allow the player to shoot while doing it. So maybe you would slow down a little from top speed while shooting.

    I think that would be extremely annoying. Pressing W should have no more effect than simply moving forward.

    You want to remove sprint. Then remove it and don't make the default movement worse. The "new" sprint would in fact be simpler version of the old sprint without the option to run normally and without the option to decide when to use it. It sounds more like it is made for being a compromise when there shouldn't be one.

    Imo you should either 1) keep sprint on shift key and nerf it or 2) remove sprint completely.

    The idea is a compromise so the feel of the game doesn't feel slow to people on marines. I think this is a very small compromise though in the direction of sprint. Why would the default movement feel worse? It could be exactly like the old movement when you are shooting, and you feel faster when you aren't. What is bad about that? You have a walk button too. Yes you could just do exactly what I said and remove the running animation aspect to it, either way. I was just thinking of a way that kinda solved all the issues and didn't make the game feel slow to people.
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
    If you made default movement as fast as sprint speed, then nothing would be gained by removing sprint. Marine movement is too fast in NS2, and the fact that we have to boost alien speeds to just to keep up with marines just adds to the chaotic pace that the game already suffers from. You want smaller hitboxes again? Then the game needs to slow down to accommodate for them.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 770 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    Deck_ wrote: »
    Deck_ wrote: »
    I think it would be very similar to sprinting now. I think you would have to allow the player to shoot while doing it. So maybe you would slow down a little from top speed while shooting.

    I think that would be extremely annoying. Pressing W should have no more effect than simply moving forward.

    You want to remove sprint. Then remove it and don't make the default movement worse. The "new" sprint would in fact be simpler version of the old sprint without the option to run normally and without the option to decide when to use it. It sounds more like it is made for being a compromise when there shouldn't be one.

    Imo you should either 1) keep sprint on shift key and nerf it or 2) remove sprint completely.

    The idea is a compromise so the feel of the game doesn't feel slow to people on marines. I think this is a very small compromise though in the direction of sprint. Why would the default movement feel worse? It could be exactly like the old movement when you are shooting, and you feel faster when you aren't. What is bad about that? You have a walk button too. Yes you could just do exactly what I said and remove the running animation aspect to it, either way. I was just thinking of a way that kinda solved all the issues and didn't make the game feel slow to people.

    I thought by "sprint animation" you mean that you would have a start up time for shooting after moving forward. But even if not, moving slower while shooting is not fun and annoying and also not consistent. Then you would have two different run speeds again and there would be no point in removing sprint.

    @IeptBarakat Smaller hitboxes and more speed in general would be the way to go.
  • Deck_Deck_ Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Members Posts: 298 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    If you made default movement as fast as sprint speed, then nothing would be gained by removing sprint. Marine movement is too fast in NS2, and the fact that we have to boost alien speeds to just to keep up with marines just adds to the chaotic pace that the game already suffers from. You want smaller hitboxes again? Then the game needs to slow down to accommodate for them.

    I made some edits to the original post to make it more clear what I'm trying to do. Your top speed on marines is slower in my idea. The moving forward would be the same speed as normal movement now (maybe slightly faster, but slower than sprint). So essentially it's a nerf to sprint. All that matters really is the top speed of the marines. This gives us some good added benefits too, like a walk button which I think would help new players.
    I thought by "sprint animation" you mean that you would have a start up time for shooting after moving forward. But even if not, moving slower while shooting is not fun and annoying and also not consistent. Then you would have two different run speeds again and there would be no point in removing sprint.

    @IeptBarakat Smaller hitboxes and more speed in general would be the way to go.

    Speed could stay the same when shooting if that worked better.


    Post edited by Deck_ on
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    @The_Welsh_Wizard The hitbox changes were presumably made to help player tracking to compensate for the speed the game has, so you aren't going to get both.

    NS1, outside of bunnyhop, was slower and had much smaller skulk hitbox/model than what we have now.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 770 Advanced user
    I am sure now that I do not understand what you want to do with the sprint.
    @The_Welsh_Wizard The hitbox changes were presumably made to help player tracking to compensate for the speed the game has, so you aren't going to get both.

    NS1, outside of bunnyhop, was slower and had much smaller skulk hitbox/model than what we have now.
    The reason behind the hitbox changes do not make them any better. The thing is that more pace is more fun and hitboxes not matching the model are just bad.
  • Deck_Deck_ Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Members Posts: 298 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    I am sure now that I do not understand what you want to do with the sprint.
    @The_Welsh_Wizard The hitbox changes were presumably made to help player tracking to compensate for the speed the game has, so you aren't going to get both.

    NS1, outside of bunnyhop, was slower and had much smaller skulk hitbox/model than what we have now.
    The reason behind the hitbox changes do not make them any better. The thing is that more pace is more fun and hitboxes not matching the model are just bad.

    It removes sprint. The whole animation thing was just a comforting effect so people didn't feel really slow when they remove sprint from the game. That part is the least important aspect to this, but could make the transition easier. Also it makes some sense to have a running animation when moving without holding down the walk key. So I think it works. I don't get where the confusion is? It's a nerf to sprint, a nerf to marine top speed. This means less marine dominance early game and less marine expansion or getting to key areas quickly=hopefully better game-play.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 770 Advanced user
    Well when it is only some kind of camera shake the only thing I would care about is if it would be possible to deactivate it.
  • Deck_Deck_ Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Members Posts: 298 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    Well when it is only some kind of camera shake the only thing I would care about is if it would be possible to deactivate it.

    I turn camera animation off in options (first tab). So that wouldn't come into play for me as I find that very distracting. So they could look into removing that part if it made players have a harder time on marines.
    Post edited by Deck_ on
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 1,014 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    IF sprint were to be removed, then I wouldn't recycle the sprinting animation when moving forward. You would either have a wind up before firing or a broken animation.

    Just remove the sprinting mechanic alltogether and make moving forward slighty faster than strafing, so that your weapon is always up.
  • Deck_Deck_ Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Members Posts: 298 Advanced user
    Bicsum wrote: »
    IF sprint were to be removed, then I wouldn't recycle the sprinting animation when moving forward. You would either have a wind up before firing or a broken animation.

    Just remove the sprinting mechanic alltogether and make moving forward slighty faster than strafing, so that your weapon is always up.

    Good call. This would also work as I only put the running animation on there so people wouldn't feel as slow when sprint is removed. This would also work though and you make good points.
    Bicsum
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 850 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    If the devised sprint change affects mid and late game the same way, then it would break the balance even further.
    The current problem i encounter most of the time is early-game marine expansion.

    The first thing that comes to my mind is a new upgrade called "light armour", and it could be researched at the armslab. The res cost could be low while research time high (1-2 min?)
    This would also introduce (undesired) effects, such as blocking W and A upgrades meanwhile. Or maybe spend more res and get a 2nd armslab.

    This is probably not the best solution, but please don't wreak havoc on the balance any more than you have to. If early-game marine expansion is the problem, address that instead of creating avalanche effects...

    EDIT:
    Maybe you could add two such techs:
    Composite weapons and Light armour
    Each would be a prerequisite to either W or A upgrades. They could cost no res at all, only time.
    This would dramatically decrease marine stomp in early games
    Post edited by .trixX. on
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 483 Advanced user
    I don't think changing sprint will "wreak havoc" on mid-late game balance. It will certainly affect it, but then easy changes can be made to address that like RT hp or RT build time which are just numbers. Much easier than adding more tech (?which probably wouldn't be used)
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