IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2016
While I agree with you regarding implementation, I still fail to see how they're a problem unless a server operator changed things.. in which case they could have done this previously anyhow with a server mod?
This sort of bot usage isn't up to UWE.. Unless it gets locked down.
I fail to see any argument so far for how they are hurting the quality of a round if they are only present for the warm up period / when it's not a real round anyways?
Walking around an empty map because there's only one player on the other team and they're in the chair, is more boring than at least messing around shooting things in the mean time while you wait.
Walking around an empty map because there's only one player on the other team and they're in the chair, is more boring than at least messing around shooting things in the mean time while you wait.
You must be aware that this opinion can't be shared by everyone. For example one just went home after a long and exhausting day, since it's summer why not taking a beer as well while the game is starting. You start to get comfortable while you join a server, watch in peace the loading icon rotating at the bottom of the screen and get ready to say 'hello' to the players you know once there. Is a slot available on the team I want to join or does a team need a player ? can't say anymore since there are exactly the same amount on both side ... oh I can check the names ? nevermind some players use that name too, so I can finally check the ping of 12 players to have that information. Okay we are good so far.
Joining the team, and as a big surprise I get immediately harassed by the close and loud sound of fights near me that I need to lower my sound settings down. My heart quickly start pounding, has the game already started and are we being rushed ?!
Oh no, false warning again that's just bots raping my already dead corpse without even checking if it's still alive or not. With all of this I can't even hear correctly and focusing on the player voices requires me a lot of effort. Just going to mute the sound of the game, and the sound of the music and the hitsound.
Finally, now after what could became mandatory for every game I can finally talk (almost) peacefully to players without too much stress (almost because the screen is filled with heavy effects and combat). I know I could stay in the ready room until it gets better but that day I would really like to try a tactic I saw in SuperEffective videos marine side and want to reserve my place on the team while it's possible. Forgetting the fact that I can't explore the map anymore in the meantime to watch all that awesome mapping.
I agree with you @IronHorse, messing around shooting things is a lot less boring. You know it's like waking up in the morning with the warm light of the sun or with a bucket of cold water in the face. I can't really call it a warm up.
While I agree with you regarding implementation, I still fail to see how they're a problem unless a server operator changed things.. in which case they could have done this previously anyhow with a server mod?
This sort of bot usage isn't up to UWE.. Unless it gets locked down.
I fail to see any argument so far for how they are hurting the quality of a round if they are only present for the warm up period / when it's not a real round anyways?
Walking around an empty map because there's only one player on the other team and they're in the chair, is more boring than at least messing around shooting things in the mean time while you wait.
Have you even tried playing a round of 1v1 with 5 bots on each team? I doubt you would consider that "messing around shooting things" when you're spawning with 4-5 Fade/Oni in the Marine base raping the IP's as you spawn, your marine bots doing nothing to help fight back... Hopefully you can get to the Armory and get a weapon, or god forbid the Proto for a jetpack or exo... Even for "not a real round anyway" that's clearly not a fun experience to put up with.
Can you honestly not understand what I'm saying? That putting the players on the same team against bots would be infinitely better... That teaming up with other players to fight off waves of bots is an enjoyable thing...
Look at games like Left 4 dead or Payday, or hell consider how popular that stupid zombie mode in CoD became... They are players vs AI opponents. NS2 could benefit from something like this as it's "warm up" mode...
You seem to be under the impression I'm arguing for the removal of bots... I am not.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
I really dont understand why you disagree on a bot implementation like on tactical game @IronHorse.
With bots like there, where one rineteam full of seeding players play against a alienbot team:
- People can warmup
- New players can train commanding a bit
- Coop is just more fun
- You have a goal instead of running around and shooting a bit.
With a vote you could do the same with human aliens against bot rines.
And a vote to disable the bots if you want a 1v1 warmup during seeding would be helpfull.
We are talking about improvements here and you sound like "Ah, like always they are against our ideas or they dont understand them"
I understand the reasons but looks like you dont understand that the current implementation didnt work.
My last game was:
Rine team full, one alienplayer and the rest bots. Noone wanted to join the alienteam while the readyroom was full.
And like always everyone had to wait for the shuffle.
And btw. it makes zero sense that the bots are active on an already full server when they are there for seeding.
Can you honestly not understand what I'm saying? That putting the players on the same team against bots would be infinitely better... That teaming up with other players to fight off waves of bots is an enjoyable thing...
Forgetting the fact that I can't explore the map anymore in the meantime to watch all that awesome mapping.
You can do this at any time - but you know that already? (map ns2_tram)
For the players who don't find it boring to just sit in place and do nothing while you wait, you can always load up a map on your own or just alt tab and browse imgur. Your score isn't recorded in warmup mode.
If the party wants pepperoni pizza but you don't like pepperoni, you always have the option of picking it off. It's a better alternative to forcing everyone to have cheese.
I really dont understand why you disagree on a bot implementation like on tactical game @IronHorse.
With bots like there, where one rineteam full of seeding players play against a alienbot team:
Sigh. See above - I said I AGREE with the gripes regarding bot implementation.
Also, I personally find the "only play against bots" mode to be boring and waaayy too easy. I'd rather have some humans to play against as well. And what if I want to practice my fade?
(Yes @MoFo1 that's right.. I've played in that scenario hundreds of times. It's so stupid easy its mindbogglingly boring. Marines always pin aliens to their base within minutes, theres typically sentries everywhere too. Yawn.)
So I keep trying to eek feedback out of some of you, but you guys aren't exactly providing clear points of feedback - it's often wrapped up in misunderstandings and anecdotal stories - so excuse me if I am off at all.. but to sum it up:
Allow players to vote to kick bots
Bot AI isn't good enough
Bot AI is too aggressive
Bot AI needs to have appropriate lifeforms based on marine equivalent during warmup mode
Allow players to vote for a Us vs Them mode (all human players on same team)
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
Allow players to vote to kick bots - Yep
Bot AI isn't good enough - Kinda
Bot AI is too aggressive - Maybe they should not run into marinestart
Bot AI needs to have appropriate lifeforms based on marine equivalent during warmup mode - Dont know about that
Allow players to vote for a Us vs Them mode (all human players on same team) - Yep
Also:
The server should check if there enough players on the server after a mapchange. If so, there is no need for bots, cause the server is already seeded.
Forgetting the fact that I can't explore the map anymore in the meantime to watch all that awesome mapping.
You can do this at any time - but you know that already? (map ns2_tram)
Mea culpa I though the warmup mod was enable with bots everywhere (can't really explore with bots chasing you), have not checked yet with sandbox or training with 0 bots but the 'create server' on the server browser does include them both.
Allow players to vote to kick bots - Yep
Bot AI isn't good enough - Kinda
Bot AI needs to have appropriate lifeforms based on marine equivalent during warmup mode - Dont know about that
About the lifeform choice pounding the overall strength of the alien/marine team at a given moment can do (eg an Onos would count as 10, and a lerk as 3, etc). If that 'strength' ratio is below the marine one, allow the alien for example to pick more upgrades or evolve into an other stronger lifeform.
Allow players to vote for a Us vs Them mode (all human players on same team) - Yep
"Us vs Them" (or swarm mod like CoD zombies/TF2 MvM) is being worked on and beta tested already with both side playable, but as something included in arcade servers (can't vote to enable/disable)
Bot AI is too aggressive - Maybe they should not run into marinestart
@IronHorse Sorry for the post before I might have overreacted and forgot to add feedback as I usually try to do.
Agreed, also allow some sort of "fight areas" excluding spawn location can be a good place in between peace and war: prevent bots from targeting marines/Aliens in there. I can see to edit the code and submit a pull request about that if you think it would fit.
Something good too could be to add an "explorer" switch/command/button that put the player into relevancy 0 (or ghost blueprint), damagesMixin at 0 and prevent bots for considering that one player as a target. It's a lot better to spec the game "in game" and would allow all the good we got before warmup and bots: for example I could evolve as a skulk and try several ambushing spot to see how I could use them in the waittime, or a gorge to train belly sliding in peace without being shot at (and without the need to get punished and move in a server all alone), or finally even do that with multiple players and ask for improvement.
The bots are a good idea if they are not enforced, it's all about allowing players to make a choice.
Allow players to vote to kick bots - Yep
Bot AI isn't good enough - Kinda
Bot AI is too aggressive - Maybe they should not run into marinestart
Bot AI needs to have appropriate lifeforms based on marine equivalent during warmup mode - Dont know about that
Allow players to vote for a Us vs Them mode (all human players on same team) - Yep
Also:
The server should check if there enough players on the server after a mapchange. If so, there is no need for bots, cause the server is already seeded.
Forgetting the fact that I can't explore the map anymore in the meantime to watch all that awesome mapping.
You can do this at any time - but you know that already? (map ns2_tram)
Mea culpa I though the warmup mod was enable with bots everywhere (can't really explore with bots chasing you), have not checked yet with sandbox or training with 0 bots but the 'create server' on the server browser does include them both.
Sandbox mode doesn't spawn bots, but currently only works on Docking. Training mode has sliders to let you choose the number of bots, but it ignores this for the filler_bots number in your local ServerConfig. And as Katz noted, your local server will respect filler_bots as well.
If you want a local server without filler bots, you have to either edit ServerConfig, or use sv_maxbots. sv_maxbots requires server admin, which is not granted to you by default in your local ServerAdmin file, so you'd have to edit in an entry for yourself.
I would not call it trivial to start a server without bots so you can explore a map.
Edit: I had forgotten about removebots, which may or may not work with fillerbots. Also according to the old wiki there is freezebots which I have never heard of or used before. So I may have overstated the problem a bit.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
If you want to walk around a map without bots and without going through the trouble of editing your ServerAdmin file:
When you get to the ready room, just type cheats 1 and then freezebots in the console. You'll have one sitting in the ready room, but that's it.. no bots.
If you want to walk around a map without bots and without going through the trouble of editing your ServerAdmin file:
When you get to the ready room, just type cheats 1 and then freezebots in the console. You'll have one sitting in the ready room, but that's it.. no bots.
That is not very intuitive and not a solution for a hypothetical new player that wants to explore the maps in peace. (How would he know about those commands, after all?)
im getting heavy lags during some games especially on large which hasnt been the case in the past except for the ddos attacks but also on small servers those lags occured just less frequantly although my internet connection was and is stable...
If you want to walk around a map without bots and without going through the trouble of editing your ServerAdmin file:
When you get to the ready room, just type cheats 1 and then freezebots in the console. You'll have one sitting in the ready room, but that's it.. no bots.
Doesn't work for me. The bots freeze but are still present and killing the performance.
HandschuhJoin Date: 2005-03-08Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer
edited July 2016
It's just uncomfortable.. why don't you accept it and fix it.. instead of making excuses ..
That's how you get angry customers.. way to make a fast downfall..
Comments
This sort of bot usage isn't up to UWE.. Unless it gets locked down.
I fail to see any argument so far for how they are hurting the quality of a round if they are only present for the warm up period / when it's not a real round anyways?
Walking around an empty map because there's only one player on the other team and they're in the chair, is more boring than at least messing around shooting things in the mean time while you wait.
You must be aware that this opinion can't be shared by everyone. For example one just went home after a long and exhausting day, since it's summer why not taking a beer as well while the game is starting. You start to get comfortable while you join a server, watch in peace the loading icon rotating at the bottom of the screen and get ready to say 'hello' to the players you know once there. Is a slot available on the team I want to join or does a team need a player ? can't say anymore since there are exactly the same amount on both side ... oh I can check the names ? nevermind some players use that name too, so I can finally check the ping of 12 players to have that information. Okay we are good so far.
Joining the team, and as a big surprise I get immediately harassed by the close and loud sound of fights near me that I need to lower my sound settings down. My heart quickly start pounding, has the game already started and are we being rushed ?!
Oh no, false warning again that's just bots raping my already dead corpse without even checking if it's still alive or not. With all of this I can't even hear correctly and focusing on the player voices requires me a lot of effort. Just going to mute the sound of the game, and the sound of the music and the hitsound.
Finally, now after what could became mandatory for every game I can finally talk (almost) peacefully to players without too much stress (almost because the screen is filled with heavy effects and combat). I know I could stay in the ready room until it gets better but that day I would really like to try a tactic I saw in SuperEffective videos marine side and want to reserve my place on the team while it's possible. Forgetting the fact that I can't explore the map anymore in the meantime to watch all that awesome mapping.
I agree with you @IronHorse, messing around shooting things is a lot less boring. You know it's like waking up in the morning with the warm light of the sun or with a bucket of cold water in the face. I can't really call it a warm up.
Have you even tried playing a round of 1v1 with 5 bots on each team? I doubt you would consider that "messing around shooting things" when you're spawning with 4-5 Fade/Oni in the Marine base raping the IP's as you spawn, your marine bots doing nothing to help fight back... Hopefully you can get to the Armory and get a weapon, or god forbid the Proto for a jetpack or exo... Even for "not a real round anyway" that's clearly not a fun experience to put up with.
Can you honestly not understand what I'm saying? That putting the players on the same team against bots would be infinitely better... That teaming up with other players to fight off waves of bots is an enjoyable thing...
Look at games like Left 4 dead or Payday, or hell consider how popular that stupid zombie mode in CoD became... They are players vs AI opponents. NS2 could benefit from something like this as it's "warm up" mode...
You seem to be under the impression I'm arguing for the removal of bots... I am not.
With bots like there, where one rineteam full of seeding players play against a alienbot team:
- People can warmup
- New players can train commanding a bit
- Coop is just more fun
- You have a goal instead of running around and shooting a bit.
With a vote you could do the same with human aliens against bot rines.
And a vote to disable the bots if you want a 1v1 warmup during seeding would be helpfull.
We are talking about improvements here and you sound like "Ah, like always they are against our ideas or they dont understand them"
I understand the reasons but looks like you dont understand that the current implementation didnt work.
My last game was:
Rine team full, one alienplayer and the rest bots. Noone wanted to join the alienteam while the readyroom was full.
And like always everyone had to wait for the shuffle.
And btw. it makes zero sense that the bots are active on an already full server when they are there for seeding.
You can do this at any time - but you know that already? (map ns2_tram)
For the players who don't find it boring to just sit in place and do nothing while you wait, you can always load up a map on your own or just alt tab and browse imgur. Your score isn't recorded in warmup mode.
If the party wants pepperoni pizza but you don't like pepperoni, you always have the option of picking it off. It's a better alternative to forcing everyone to have cheese.
Sigh. See above - I said I AGREE with the gripes regarding bot implementation.
Also, I personally find the "only play against bots" mode to be boring and waaayy too easy. I'd rather have some humans to play against as well. And what if I want to practice my fade?
(Yes @MoFo1 that's right.. I've played in that scenario hundreds of times. It's so stupid easy its mindbogglingly boring. Marines always pin aliens to their base within minutes, theres typically sentries everywhere too. Yawn.)
So I keep trying to eek feedback out of some of you, but you guys aren't exactly providing clear points of feedback - it's often wrapped up in misunderstandings and anecdotal stories - so excuse me if I am off at all.. but to sum it up:
Is that accurate?
Bot AI isn't good enough - Kinda
Bot AI is too aggressive - Maybe they should not run into marinestart
Bot AI needs to have appropriate lifeforms based on marine equivalent during warmup mode - Dont know about that
Allow players to vote for a Us vs Them mode (all human players on same team) - Yep
Also:
The server should check if there enough players on the server after a mapchange. If so, there is no need for bots, cause the server is already seeded.
About the lifeform choice pounding the overall strength of the alien/marine team at a given moment can do (eg an Onos would count as 10, and a lerk as 3, etc). If that 'strength' ratio is below the marine one, allow the alien for example to pick more upgrades or evolve into an other stronger lifeform.
"Us vs Them" (or swarm mod like CoD zombies/TF2 MvM) is being worked on and beta tested already with both side playable, but as something included in arcade servers (can't vote to enable/disable)
@IronHorse Sorry for the post before I might have overreacted and forgot to add feedback as I usually try to do.
Agreed, also allow some sort of "fight areas" excluding spawn location can be a good place in between peace and war: prevent bots from targeting marines/Aliens in there. I can see to edit the code and submit a pull request about that if you think it would fit.
Something good too could be to add an "explorer" switch/command/button that put the player into relevancy 0 (or ghost blueprint), damagesMixin at 0 and prevent bots for considering that one player as a target. It's a lot better to spec the game "in game" and would allow all the good we got before warmup and bots: for example I could evolve as a skulk and try several ambushing spot to see how I could use them in the waittime, or a gorge to train belly sliding in peace without being shot at (and without the need to get punished and move in a server all alone), or finally even do that with multiple players and ask for improvement.
The bots are a good idea if they are not enforced, it's all about allowing players to make a choice.
Two items in playtesting now that should help --
https://trello.com/c/hrFRgzLv/381-306-pregame-spawn-room-protection
https://trello.com/c/BkDDsprZ/380-305-filler-bots-stay-at-uneven-teams
Sandbox mode doesn't spawn bots, but currently only works on Docking. Training mode has sliders to let you choose the number of bots, but it ignores this for the filler_bots number in your local ServerConfig. And as Katz noted, your local server will respect filler_bots as well.
If you want a local server without filler bots, you have to either edit ServerConfig, or use sv_maxbots. sv_maxbots requires server admin, which is not granted to you by default in your local ServerAdmin file, so you'd have to edit in an entry for yourself.
I would not call it trivial to start a server without bots so you can explore a map.
Edit: I had forgotten about removebots, which may or may not work with fillerbots. Also according to the old wiki there is freezebots which I have never heard of or used before. So I may have overstated the problem a bit.
When you get to the ready room, just type cheats 1 and then freezebots in the console. You'll have one sitting in the ready room, but that's it.. no bots.
That is not very intuitive and not a solution for a hypothetical new player that wants to explore the maps in peace. (How would he know about those commands, after all?)
Doesn't work for me. The bots freeze but are still present and killing the performance.
How do we access it?
That's how you get angry customers.. way to make a fast downfall..