Fall of the lerk

alsteralster Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19124Members
edited June 2016 in NS2 General Discussion
Anyone dying a lot playing as a lerk?

Lerks are supposed to be a support class, but are now horrible compared to the other support class the gorge.

The health bars have made marine targeting easy enough that meeting more than 1 marine is almost suicide. It cost 18 res plus 3, 6, or 9 res for upgrades vs 0 res cost marines. It's gotten so bad the PDT made spores a projectile. Bite is useless, because when you get close you can't fly away before they shoot you down. You would have to buff the lerk HP to fade levels, but a lerk is smaller than a skulk. I remember when the sky was full of lerks.

TDLR - Health bars killed the lerk.

Don't believe me? Try playing the lerk and report back with your experience.
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Comments

  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Lerks cost 18 res and 3 res per upgrade. Also you are gaining pres faster now so the cost are pretty much a joke. And since the medpack nerf lerks are stronger than before.
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold
    edited June 2016
    Engaging multiple marines alone was suicide or at least very risky play even before the health bars. You either spike them until backup arrives or you ambush them.

  • TriggerHappyBroTriggerHappyBro Ohio Join Date: 2016-05-23 Member: 217383Members, NS2 Playtester
    Where are you getting these numbers? It only costs 18 pres to evolve into a lerk and 3 pres per upgrade, so a full complement only gets you to 27 pres.

    Please, where did you get these numbers?
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited June 2016
    I main lerk and I don't have these problems. Sure, it harder to aggro lerk, but lerking itself is pretty much the same.
  • StarkStark Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186336Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    As fade I don't feel as though engagements have become significantly harder. I don't blink into a room and get focused down immediately, unable to dodge crackshot marines. However, I have noticed that when my health is already low-ish I tend to get focused more than I used to.

    I don't think I play lerk enough to comment from that perspective, but as a marine what I've noticed is:

    Those that are silly enough to fly in straight lines for extended periods of time die just as quickly as they used to*

    Those lerks that dodge, evade, bait, etc are not any easier to shoot*

    The only advantage(?) I could think to say I've gained from healthbars is to the ability see exactly how low aliens are when they are escaping. But then, my behavior hasn't really changed much due to this, as I already could tell pretty well how low a lifeform was even before healthbars and would always seek to do as much damage as possible anyway.



    *Disclaimer: with more time to play, my aim has improved independently of healthbars.
  • alsteralster Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19124Members
    Lerks cost 18 res and 3 res per upgrade. Also you are gaining pres faster now so the cost are pretty much a joke. And since the medpack nerf lerks are stronger than before.

    All the other classes are worth their time and res cost. Try the lerk and see how long your res lasts.
  • SupaDupaNoodleSupaDupaNoodle Join Date: 2003-01-12 Member: 12232Members
    Nonsense. Lifeforms are way too cheap at the moment. Please don't try to solo vs more than 1-2 marines. Just asking to be rekt.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    alster wrote: »
    Lerks cost 18 res and 3 res per upgrade. Also you are gaining pres faster now so the cost are pretty much a joke. And since the medpack nerf lerks are stronger than before.

    All the other classes are worth their time and res cost. Try the lerk and see how long your res lasts.

    Lol. I always play lerk. Of course health bars are shit but they don't give marines weapons more damage than before.

    And trying to solo 2 marines has always been suicide.
  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain High Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    I would agree, but my lerk doesnt die anymore.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    We need more pancakes up in here!
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I haven't played in ages but. I just wanna say that ranged spores would've been a welcome change when I played (I of course played with it in compmod). Spores were practically useless, especially considering the tech requirement. Ranged spores make a lot more sense.

    And FWIW, @Stark pretty much summarizes how I imagine the healthbars would impact my gameplay. Again, I haven't actually played since the healthbars, so take this perception with a grain of salt.
  • migalskimigalski Boston Join Date: 2014-07-02 Member: 197181Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    To be honest, since the medpack nerf lerks have become significantly stronger as they can now out dps commander meds, but other than that lerks are quite literally the same. A good lerk who dodges and picks his engagements well will still destroy the other team, a lerk who flies in a straightline into 5 marines is still going to die. Also lerks really aren't a support class until shotguns and umbra comes up, you might want to re evaluate how you play lerk
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    I find it funny that some of the more vocal opponents of healthbars are basically saying that they effect gameplay in a minimal way in this thread.

    Could some of you explain why you dislike them so much, yet say they have minimal effect? Remember, I am not saying healthbars are good. I can do without them.
  • NovoReiNovoRei US Join Date: 2014-11-18 Member: 199718Members
    edited June 2016
    My feeling is that Lerks die much faster since b279 with the changes in hitreg. Since the last 5 patches the death rate is much faster too. Unknown reason.

    If before, playing aggressive lerk with 180ping was okish, now its just a waste of pres.
  • alsteralster Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19124Members
    When skulks or lerks turn their bodies to dodge the outline of their bodies change accordingly. The changing outline, shadows, dark skin color, and dim light normally makes it harder to track aliens. Health bars help a lot in targeting, because the bar color is always the same and the shape of the health bar doesn't change. It pretty much acts like a crosshair with the bonus that you know how much longer before the alien will die.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited June 2016
    Nordic wrote: »
    I find it funny that some of the more vocal opponents of healthbars are basically saying that they effect gameplay in a minimal way in this thread.

    Could some of you explain why you dislike them so much, yet say they have minimal effect? Remember, I am not saying healthbars are good. I can do without them.

    I can't see where people say health bars affect gameplay in a minimal way?
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Nordic wrote: »
    I find it funny that some of the more vocal opponents of healthbars are basically saying that they effect gameplay in a minimal way in this thread.

    Could some of you explain why you dislike them so much, yet say they have minimal effect? Remember, I am not saying healthbars are good. I can do without them.

    I can't see where people say health bars affect gameplay in a minimal way?

    Just scroll up. This guy for example:
    Stark wrote: »
    As fade I don't feel as though engagements have become significantly harder. I don't blink into a room and get focused down immediately, unable to dodge crackshot marines. However, I have noticed that when my health is already low-ish I tend to get focused more than I used to.

    I don't think I play lerk enough to comment from that perspective, but as a marine what I've noticed is:

    Those that are silly enough to fly in straight lines for extended periods of time die just as quickly as they used to*

    Those lerks that dodge, evade, bait, etc are not any easier to shoot*

    The only advantage(?) I could think to say I've gained from healthbars is to the ability see exactly how low aliens are when they are escaping. But then, my behavior hasn't really changed much due to this, as I already could tell pretty well how low a lifeform was even before healthbars and would always seek to do as much damage as possible anyway.



    *Disclaimer: with more time to play, my aim has improved independently of healthbars.

  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members
    edited June 2016
    migalski wrote: »
    1. Gives the marine and alien information he shouldn't have w/o the commanders help, he shouldn't be able to hit 1 bullet and know the fade is engaging hurt, or a marine who engages with no armor. You shouldn't be able to know they're bluffing.
    2. Makes focus fire much easier as a result. (This i can deal with but #1 is way too important and really screws you if you decide to take a risky chance)

    Thank You!
    #1 reason is spot on! Many people feign retreat as aliens, waiting for the marines to chase them then turn back to deliver a final blow. Com intelligence was also a crucial point in hunting lifeforms... and it required teamwork, which when properly executed was a huge satisfaction.

    With the mentality the devs have recently I wouldn't be surprised if autoaim was introduced at some point.

    All hail the Rookies!
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Nordic wrote: »
    I find it funny that some of the more vocal opponents of healthbars are basically saying that they effect gameplay in a minimal way in this thread.

    Could some of you explain why you dislike them so much, yet say they have minimal effect? Remember, I am not saying healthbars are good. I can do without them.

    I can't see where people say health bars affect gameplay in a minimal way?

    Just scroll up. This guy for example:
    Stark wrote: »
    As fade I don't feel as though engagements have become significantly harder. I don't blink into a room and get focused down immediately, unable to dodge crackshot marines. However, I have noticed that when my health is already low-ish I tend to get focused more than I used to.

    I don't think I play lerk enough to comment from that perspective, but as a marine what I've noticed is:

    Those that are silly enough to fly in straight lines for extended periods of time die just as quickly as they used to*

    Those lerks that dodge, evade, bait, etc are not any easier to shoot*

    The only advantage(?) I could think to say I've gained from healthbars is to the ability see exactly how low aliens are when they are escaping. But then, my behavior hasn't really changed much due to this, as I already could tell pretty well how low a lifeform was even before healthbars and would always seek to do as much damage as possible anyway.



    *Disclaimer: with more time to play, my aim has improved independently of healthbars.

    You are right on this one, but I don't remember him as one of the more vocal opponents of health bars. But maybe I am mistaken here.
    .trixX. wrote: »
    migalski wrote: »
    1. Gives the marine and alien information he shouldn't have w/o the commanders help, he shouldn't be able to hit 1 bullet and know the fade is engaging hurt, or a marine who engages with no armor. You shouldn't be able to know they're bluffing.
    2. Makes focus fire much easier as a result. (This i can deal with but #1 is way too important and really screws you if you decide to take a risky chance)

    Thank You!
    #1 reason is spot on! Many people feign retreat as aliens, waiting for the marines to chase them then turn back to deliver a final blow. Com intelligence was also a crucial point in hunting lifeforms... and it required teamwork, which when properly executed was a huge satisfaction.

    With the mentality the devs have recently I wouldn't be surprised if autoaim was introduced at some point.

    All hail the Rookies!

    I think they are trying to make the game console ready, so auto aim is only a question of time.
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members
    edited June 2016
    I hope you're joking about their plan to port NS to console... In that case devs are on the perfect track to deliver coup de grace for the game. I love consoles as any other gamer, but NS with a gamepad? How on earth would coms medspam?
    I miss Flayra and Max :(
  • StarkStark Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186336Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Nordic wrote: »
    I find it funny that some of the more vocal opponents of healthbars are basically saying that they effect gameplay in a minimal way in this thread.

    Could some of you explain why you dislike them so much, yet say they have minimal effect? Remember, I am not saying healthbars are good. I can do without them.

    I can't see where people say health bars affect gameplay in a minimal way?

    Just scroll up. This guy for example:
    Stark wrote: »
    As fade I don't feel as though engagements have become significantly harder. I don't blink into a room and get focused down immediately, unable to dodge crackshot marines. However, I have noticed that when my health is already low-ish I tend to get focused more than I used to.

    I don't think I play lerk enough to comment from that perspective, but as a marine what I've noticed is:

    Those that are silly enough to fly in straight lines for extended periods of time die just as quickly as they used to*

    Those lerks that dodge, evade, bait, etc are not any easier to shoot*

    The only advantage(?) I could think to say I've gained from healthbars is to the ability see exactly how low aliens are when they are escaping. But then, my behavior hasn't really changed much due to this, as I already could tell pretty well how low a lifeform was even before healthbars and would always seek to do as much damage as possible anyway.



    *Disclaimer: with more time to play, my aim has improved independently of healthbars.

    You are right on this one, but I don't remember him as one of the more vocal opponents of health bars. But maybe I am mistaken here.
    .trixX. wrote: »
    migalski wrote: »
    1. Gives the marine and alien information he shouldn't have w/o the commanders help, he shouldn't be able to hit 1 bullet and know the fade is engaging hurt, or a marine who engages with no armor. You shouldn't be able to know they're bluffing.
    2. Makes focus fire much easier as a result. (This i can deal with but #1 is way too important and really screws you if you decide to take a risky chance)

    Thank You!
    #1 reason is spot on! Many people feign retreat as aliens, waiting for the marines to chase them then turn back to deliver a final blow. Com intelligence was also a crucial point in hunting lifeforms... and it required teamwork, which when properly executed was a huge satisfaction.

    With the mentality the devs have recently I wouldn't be surprised if autoaim was introduced at some point.

    All hail the Rookies!

    I think they are trying to make the game console ready, so auto aim is only a question of time.

    I haven't spoken for or against healthbars (or much at all, really), as I'm kind of indifferent towards them. That's not to say that I don't see why some people might have concerns with them. My comment above was just meant as a "hey, in my experience lerks/fades haven't really been affected by the addition of healthbars".
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    .trixX. wrote: »
    I hope you're joking about their plan to port NS to console... In that case devs are on the perfect track to deliver coup de grace for the game. I love consoles as any other gamer, but NS with a gamepad? How on earth would coms medspam?
    I miss Flayra and Max :(

    He is joking.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Stark wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    I find it funny that some of the more vocal opponents of healthbars are basically saying that they effect gameplay in a minimal way in this thread.

    Could some of you explain why you dislike them so much, yet say they have minimal effect? Remember, I am not saying healthbars are good. I can do without them.

    I can't see where people say health bars affect gameplay in a minimal way?

    Just scroll up. This guy for example:
    Stark wrote: »
    As fade I don't feel as though engagements have become significantly harder. I don't blink into a room and get focused down immediately, unable to dodge crackshot marines. However, I have noticed that when my health is already low-ish I tend to get focused more than I used to.

    I don't think I play lerk enough to comment from that perspective, but as a marine what I've noticed is:

    Those that are silly enough to fly in straight lines for extended periods of time die just as quickly as they used to*

    Those lerks that dodge, evade, bait, etc are not any easier to shoot*

    The only advantage(?) I could think to say I've gained from healthbars is to the ability see exactly how low aliens are when they are escaping. But then, my behavior hasn't really changed much due to this, as I already could tell pretty well how low a lifeform was even before healthbars and would always seek to do as much damage as possible anyway.



    *Disclaimer: with more time to play, my aim has improved independently of healthbars.

    You are right on this one, but I don't remember him as one of the more vocal opponents of health bars. But maybe I am mistaken here.
    .trixX. wrote: »
    migalski wrote: »
    1. Gives the marine and alien information he shouldn't have w/o the commanders help, he shouldn't be able to hit 1 bullet and know the fade is engaging hurt, or a marine who engages with no armor. You shouldn't be able to know they're bluffing.
    2. Makes focus fire much easier as a result. (This i can deal with but #1 is way too important and really screws you if you decide to take a risky chance)

    Thank You!
    #1 reason is spot on! Many people feign retreat as aliens, waiting for the marines to chase them then turn back to deliver a final blow. Com intelligence was also a crucial point in hunting lifeforms... and it required teamwork, which when properly executed was a huge satisfaction.

    With the mentality the devs have recently I wouldn't be surprised if autoaim was introduced at some point.

    All hail the Rookies!

    I think they are trying to make the game console ready, so auto aim is only a question of time.

    I haven't spoken for or against healthbars (or much at all, really), as I'm kind of indifferent towards them. That's not to say that I don't see why some people might have concerns with them. My comment above was just meant as a "hey, in my experience lerks/fades haven't really been affected by the addition of healthbars".

    yea but then I wonder who Nordic referred too.
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members
    .trixX. wrote: »
    I hope you're joking about their plan to port NS to console... In that case devs are on the perfect track to deliver coup de grace for the game. I love consoles as any other gamer, but NS with a gamepad? How on earth would coms medspam?
    I miss Flayra and Max :(

    He is joking.

    I'm so disappointed in the latest builds and their fixation on getting more players by making the game "easy", that I can imagine them changing the game to suit controllers...
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    To be honest, I think the only reason why they wouldn't bring it to consoles is because of the costs and developement time it would take.
  • SupaDupaNoodleSupaDupaNoodle Join Date: 2003-01-12 Member: 12232Members
    I think NS2 would be successful on consoles tbh! lol
  • OscarTheCouchOscarTheCouch Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34647Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
  • fleasfleas Join Date: 2007-10-13 Member: 62623Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited June 2016
    yez, you need to explain to a lot of players(even old ones) how walljump/wallhopping is done. I still see old regular players not able to wallhop when engaging and rely on ambushing.


    At least this isn't like NS1 where you have to learn bunnyhopping which relies on arcing your mouse and excellent jump timings + constancy.

    Wallhopping is teachable and can be done in one or a few days.



    following the topic: read some reply from a dev(in other thread) saying with hp bars, your playstyle suppose to change. Which is true because the game now becomes very linear in otherwords very simple/easy.

    as lerk:
    When to fall back to hive:
    Low hp
    Group of marines
    Shotguns

    When to engage:
    low hp marines(see from spikes)
    small group
    rifles equipped
    marine's back facing you(this depends on your ping and marine's reaction time)


    Its not like before HP bars where with skill you can still help with low HP because marines do not know how low you are unless there's communication within the team. Plus they can just trace the HP bars even though they did make changes on how HP bar will show.
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