MAKE FLAMETHROWER GREAT AGAIN

The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
edited May 2016 in Ideas and Suggestions
Look what I found on NS2 wiki: http://wiki.unknownworlds.com/images/8/8f/NS2_marine_mockup.jpg

At the moment flamethrower is totally useless but in fact it is a nice support weapon.
Make a flamer attachement buyable for the LMG from the armory for a good amount of res and use with rightclick instead of the rifle bash then.

What is gorge suit or plasteel?

For the devs: Also it would be nice for rookies so they are not getting into the trap to buy a flamerthrower when AA is researched because they think it is good.

Comments

  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    Flamethrower needs its fire rate increased, and base damage decreased to compensate. That would be a start.
  • DilligafDilligaf Join Date: 2014-05-25 Member: 196238Members
    Has the power of the flametrower been nerfed? because i notice depleting energy is not as effective as it used to be.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    Dilligaf wrote: »
    Has the power of the flametrower been nerfed? because i notice depleting energy is not as effective as it used to be.
    Afaik, it has not been nerfed.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Nordic wrote: »
    Flamethrower needs its fire rate increased, and base damage decreased to compensate. That would be a start.

    The problem is that it wouldn't make it more useful.
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold
    Is it performance wise possible to give the flamethrower a projectile based firing arc that makes it work like a real flamethrower?

    That sure as hell would make the flamethrower more fun tun use.
  • MephillesMephilles Germany Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
    edited May 2016
    one problem I see with the flamethrower is that it is a support weapon that is close range only. So in order for it to work you need to get close to the aliens who are naturally strong at close combat.

    I'd say either give flamethrowers more range (the idea from @Bicsum might work for that) or we give the FT some extra armor at the same time so he becomes more tanky
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members
    There is a delay between the first and the second hit with the flamethrower, anyone noticed this bug?
    I think the base damage should remain low, but the damage over time (burn) should be increased indirectly by allowing it to stack (only on players).

    Not sure if it has to shoot projectiles though because the grenade launcher already does that, but I'd like see the unique aspect reworked so that it becomes a more balanced weapon that can kill lifeforms without being its primary function like the GL.
  • deathshrouddeathshroud Join Date: 2010-04-10 Member: 71291Members
    problem with flamer is its easy as hell to use, so u give it any power and it becomes very cheesy
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members
    You can't kill a good fade with FT, with GL you can.
    Fix that.
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited May 2016
    Increase the firing range, reduce the firing radius, add a 1.5-2 second delay to ignite a target(or ignore the first few stacks), increase the on-fire damage and energy drain of ignited players. Increase the duration of it's on-surface environmental fire and it's damage.

    This would shift the flamethrower from a close range support weapon that has to compete with aliens at their best, to a medium to long range support weapon that mostly benefits from engaging at a distance. The ignition delay is to give lower lifeforms the ability counter at a close range before the increased fire damage and energy drain kicks in.

    Originally in the early beta there were talks of having flamethrowers clear out vents and play an area denial role, but that was cut presumably for mapping and time saving purposes. The suggested increase to the environmental fire radius and damage is a nod to that original design idea.
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold
    I'd rather scratch the whole energy drain part of the flame thrower in order to improve the damage. It's unfun to play against as alien and its confusing for rookies, who suddenly can't do anything anymore and die. It doesn't need the energy drain to be a unique support weapon. It can still disable pve and burn bile and spores.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited May 2016
    The flamethrower has a several kind of hidden effects. I will explain how they are useful and the downsides in the spoiler.
    1. It shuts down aliens structures effects.
    2. A flamethrower can damage multiple enemies, or structures, at once.
    3. It stops energy regeneration.
    4. It does burn damage over time.
    5. It does flame damage.
    6. It blocks bile bomb.
    7. It burns away alien gas effects.
    1. The strongest thing about a flamethrower is that it shuts down alien structure effects. The hive stops healing, crags stop healing, shades stop cloaking, whips stop whacking, and shifts stop giving energy. This makes killing a hive quite a lot easier. Aliens trying to defend the hive can't heal. A crag by the hive does not heal the hive making it take longer to kill. In a sense the flamethrower is a force multiplier.
    The problem is that for you to perform this strong support role effectively, you need to be in a group of 5+ marines. Even then an LMG or shotgun would pretty much do just as well.

    2. Another really strong aspect of the flamethrower is that you can damage multiple structures at once. Alien upgrades are often placed right next to each other. With a flamethrower you can kill all 3 really quick.
    The problem is that it is really difficult to even reach those situations. Even if you were in that situation a grenade launcher would kill them faster.

    3. A flamethrower can be a great support weapon because aliens are so reliant on energy. A fade pretty much can not move fast without energy. Aliens can not attack if they don't have energy.
    The problem is that in a real game this really does not do much. I have twice in my 2000+ hours of gameplay caused a fade to die because I drained his energy with a flamethrower. Any moderately skilled marine would be better off with a lmg or a shotgun which is why the flamethrower is pretty much useless.

    4. The flamethrower does burn damage over time. This is most obvious when a skulk dies as it runs away with low health, and then dies. What is not obvious at all is that you can set the ground on fire. A skulk will walk will take burn damage over time by walking on those flames. The less obvious aspect of this is you can do a lot extra damage to structures. If you try to kill and harvester with a flamethrower you an do additional burn damage to it by burning the ground. The harvester will both be taking damage from the flamethrower and the flames on the ground. I think it is about 30% more damage, but that is a guess at best.
    The problem is that a flamethrower marine can hardly use this to his advantage because even a skulk has a good chance of killing him. Unless that marine has a jetpack he is basically useless.

    5. A flamethrower also does flame damage. Flame damage does 400% to flammable structures. There are not many flammable structures. They include cysts, hydras, and clogs. Welders also do flame damage. One of my favorite things to do is to have a jetpack and just just do a half second of flames on a cyst and run. I hit every other cyst. Doing this you can destroy almost the entire alien cyst chain before they can respond.
    The problem is that this can only happen late game, and if there is at least one moderately skilled lerk or fade on the alien team you will not get very far.

    6. Flamethrowers pop bile bomb. It stops it in mid air. Not only that, it will stop the damage over time that bilebomb does if a structure has already been hit. (Not true anymore). A single flamethower can shutdown a gorge rush entirely. Bilebomb becomes useless because the flamethrowers stops it. The effect is also complemented by the drain on energy making gorges even more useless.
    The problem is that this is so situational.

    7. Flamethrowers burn away lerk spores. They also burn away a lerks umbra. The alien commanders drifter abilities like enzyme and mucous membrane are also stopped by flamethrowers.
    The problem is that you don't see any of those abilities used very often.

    Although the flamethrower is a very strong support weapon, it is only strong is specific situations that don't happen often. It addition, it is difficult of a flamethrower to defend itself. Every other primary marine weapon/class can defend itself more easily than a flamethrower.

    These are what need fixed.
    Nordic wrote: »
    Flamethrower needs its fire rate increased, and base damage decreased to compensate. That would be a start.

    The problem is that it wouldn't make it more useful.

    It would be a start at making it more useful. Do you use hitsounds? Do you use flamethrower? The hit sounds are so slow. Lerks, fades, and sometimes even skulks can run through the flames inbetween the damage ticks. So increasing the firerate would make the flamethrower more responsive and do more damage.

    In the past I have wanted a firerate increase, with a small nerf in base damage, resulting in 15% more dps than what we have now. I still like this idea, and it would make flamethrower better, it would not really fix the entire problem. Increasing the range might help more than a 15% dps boost. Still though, the increased fire rate is needed.
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members
    Nordic wrote: »
    ... It would be a start at making it more useful. Do you use hitsounds? Do you use flamethrower? The hit sounds are so slow. Lerks, fades, and sometimes even skulks can run through the flames inbetween the damage ticks. So increasing the firerate would make the flamethrower more responsive and do more damage.

    In the past I have wanted a firerate increase, with a small nerf in base damage, resulting in 15% more dps than what we have now. I still like this idea, and it would make flamethrower better, it would not really fix the entire problem. Increasing the range might help more than a 15% dps boost. Still though, the increased fire rate is needed.


    +1 for firerate increase, there's also need to fix the *hit-delay-hit-hit-hit* issue.

    If you compare GL and FT, the flamethrower range is limited AND the burst non-existent, so unless you're against really bad aliens you can't 1v1 gorges basically.
    When you look at the GL it can burst from afar safely, kill higher lifeforms.
    Despite all the situational hidden mechanics of the flamer, it just seems not worth the effort.
    Imo the flamer needs more BURN, the ability to stack burn dots so that staying in range of a flamer is actually dangerous (unless you have a gorge nearby to put out the flames..
    #friedlerk
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    Stackable flame burn damage used to be in the game. I wonder why it was removed. I think it's better than the energy drain effect that it has now.
  • RammlerRammler Join Date: 2013-06-18 Member: 185607Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    An attachment would be the best solution in my opinion. A flamethrower is a flamethrower, no matter how much you tweak the damage. The shotgun will always be the better choice against lifeforms. So an attachment could be a solution, to get the flamethrower back in the game.

    Home said a good point: When you buy a flamethrower you give up your main weapon slot for a weaker support-weapon. in a 6 vs 6 that can be crucial.
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold
    edited May 2016
    I could imagine that it could be hard to balance, if you just add the flamethrower on top of the lmg. The lmg isn't actually weak on itself and just adding more stuff to it might be gamebreaking.
    The gl attachment was taken out, because it was effective at everything. RT capping, pve killing and life form killing. It was so strong that it rendered every other tech meaningless.

    Of course the flamer is bit different, but you can't really just have it do 2 damge per second and you can't really just nerf the ammo capacity, because then it would lose its pve purpose.

    I agree with deathshroud that the problem with the flamer is that it is too easy to use to make it actually strong.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    When you remove it from the main weapon slot, you can nerf the damage output heavily so its only purpose would be its support abilites. The damage output is only neccessary atm because you are lacking your main weapon when buying it.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    I do not think the flamethrower can be a primary weapon and be as not able to defend itself well. A flamethrower must be able to defend itself as well as a grenade launcher can.

    To get around this, making it a secondary weapon would be great. You can buff the heck out of support roles, and make it weak on players.

    Still though, the fire rate needs to be at least doubled.
  • deathshrouddeathshroud Join Date: 2010-04-10 Member: 71291Members
    when the flmaer was announced i kind of hoped it would be used as a sort of blocker weapon. If anyone has played space hulk then u kinda know what i mean. Laying down a large area of fire that would prevent aliens from moving through it without taking quite abit of damage. Could be secondary fire and use a full cansiter of fuel to use.
  • xen32xen32 Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Remember good old days when you could burn a hive in 2.5 clips? Those were awesome times.
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    edited June 2016
    when the flmaer was announced i kind of hoped it would be used as a sort of blocker weapon. If anyone has played space hulk then u kinda know what i mean. Laying down a large area of fire that would prevent aliens from moving through it without taking quite abit of damage. Could be secondary fire and use a full cansiter of fuel to use.

    Like some sort of napalm round yes. The flamer does currently set surfaces on fire, but it's effect is negligible. I'd imagine it would require some balancing though.
  • YojimboYojimbo England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    coolitic wrote: »
    when the flmaer was announced i kind of hoped it would be used as a sort of blocker weapon. If anyone has played space hulk then u kinda know what i mean. Laying down a large area of fire that would prevent aliens from moving through it without taking quite abit of damage. Could be secondary fire and use a full cansiter of fuel to use.

    Like some sort of napalm round yes. The flamer does currently set surfaces on fire, but it's effect is negligible. I'd imagine it would require some balancing though.

    How about an ALT-FIRE for flamethrower, releases a "firebomb" that "sets an area on fire for X amount of seconds". :smiley:
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    Yojimbo wrote: »
    coolitic wrote: »
    when the flmaer was announced i kind of hoped it would be used as a sort of blocker weapon. If anyone has played space hulk then u kinda know what i mean. Laying down a large area of fire that would prevent aliens from moving through it without taking quite abit of damage. Could be secondary fire and use a full cansiter of fuel to use.

    Like some sort of napalm round yes. The flamer does currently set surfaces on fire, but it's effect is negligible. I'd imagine it would require some balancing though.

    How about an ALT-FIRE for flamethrower, releases a "firebomb" that "sets an area on fire for X amount of seconds". :smiley:

    That's what I meant.
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members
    Yojimbo wrote: »
    coolitic wrote: »
    when the flmaer was announced i kind of hoped it would be used as a sort of blocker weapon. If anyone has played space hulk then u kinda know what i mean. Laying down a large area of fire that would prevent aliens from moving through it without taking quite abit of damage. Could be secondary fire and use a full cansiter of fuel to use.

    Like some sort of napalm round yes. The flamer does currently set surfaces on fire, but it's effect is negligible. I'd imagine it would require some balancing though.

    How about an ALT-FIRE for flamethrower, releases a "firebomb" that "sets an area on fire for X amount of seconds". :smiley:

    I vote for an airblast to send skulks flying :]
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