Health bars on enemies

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  • KasharicKasharic Hull, EnglandMembers, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Posts: 722 mod
    edited May 2016
    Yojimbo wrote: »
    Is the healthbar localized or does the damage you do appear to other players aswell?

    its localized. the only way other people can see your health is if they shoot/bite you too.

    @ everyone else. the healthbar change I think is a very good one, and as the devs have said, this is just the beginning of lots more changes to come, and I welcome these changes with open arms... sure the healthbars is a "buff" for marines more than it is for aliens... but i'm sure they are going to be bringing in some other changes that balance the playing field again... and let us also not forget that since the beginning of stage 1, the devs have said that they intend to make changes often and sometimes its not going to be balanced, so things will be tweaked... just have patience and give constructive feedback.
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  • StardogStardog Members Join Date: 2004-10-25 Member: 32448Posts: 303 Advanced user
    I am worried about Onos etc not being able to fake their HP, but the numbers are terrible too.

    I would like a simple cursor X when connecting with a shot, a la Battlefield.
    Vetinari
  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Posts: 2,689 admin
    edited May 2016
    doesnt it also make aura abit less useful?
    Yes. They do work differently, but there is definitely an overlap in these mechanics. I've actually been wondering/considering if aura should also make the bars show up too (without needing to damage). Showing the bars once you enter the room could help make new players understand what the colored aura blobs are more quickly which wouldn't be too bad, and would also improve the utility of aura, in this new visible enemy health bars world. :)

    Stardog wrote: »
    I am worried about Onos etc not being able to fake their HP, but the numbers are terrible too.

    I would like a simple cursor X when connecting with a shot, a la Battlefield.
    It's funny, I was just talking to rantology about this yesterday, and she is going to be doing some tweaks to the vanilla crosshairs which do include better hit feedback like you are suggesting.
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  • deathshrouddeathshroud Members Join Date: 2010-04-10 Member: 71291Posts: 1,193 Advanced user
    remi wrote: »
    doesnt it also make aura abit less useful?
    Yes. They do work differently, but there is definitely an overlap in these mechanics. I've actually been wondering/considering if aura should also make the bars show up too (without needing to damage). Showing the bars once you enter the room could help make new players understand what the colored aura blobs are more quickly which wouldn't be too bad, and would also improve the utility of aura, in this new visible enemy health bars world. :)

    Stardog wrote: »
    I am worried about Onos etc not being able to fake their HP, but the numbers are terrible too.

    I would like a simple cursor X when connecting with a shot, a la Battlefield.
    It's funny, I was just talking to rantology about this yesterday, and she is going to be doing some tweaks to the vanilla crosshairs which do include better hit feedback like you are suggesting.

    Is new content aside from maps and dlc planned?
    AQ-Brainfood
  • DaveodethDaveodeth Members Join Date: 2012-11-21 Member: 172717Posts: 280 Advanced user
    As others have said, that massive health bar has made it far far easier to track aliens. Just doesn't feel right.
  • Poopsythe34Poopsythe34 USAMembers Join Date: 2014-06-04 Member: 196379Posts: 3
    If tracking is a concern, why not just flash the health bar at the last hit location instead of on the alien. People still get feedback on amount of damage done but the alien is no longer significantly more visible.
  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,469 Advanced user
    If tracking is a concern, why not just flash the health bar at the last hit location instead of on the alien. People still get feedback on amount of damage done but the alien is no longer significantly more visible.

    At that point we should probably allow people to toggle damage numbers between numeric and bar display.
    Sounds good to me.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NYMembers, Constellation Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Posts: 1,481 Advanced user
    Interesting note on the health bars:

    I use server-confirmed blood in NS2+, no draw damage, and I would never turn these bars on if I had the option. For whatever reason, when I was playing as gorge last night I noticed that the bars appeared for when I was using spit.

    I suppose this is due to some difference in coding between the hitscan and projectile attacks. Really doesn't bother me but it was extremely useful as gorge I got like, alot of spit kills.
    mattji104
  • DaveodethDaveodeth Members Join Date: 2012-11-21 Member: 172717Posts: 280 Advanced user
    edited May 2016
    If tracking is a concern, why not just flash the health bar at the last hit location instead of on the alien. People still get feedback on amount of damage done but the alien is no longer significantly more visible.

    See I think the bars as a tool for new players is great, just has an unintentional benefit when i spotted them the first time. I did get some use to when fades appeared, i consistently feel like I've done enough damage for a kill but nothing. Turns out i was a smidge off and the fades retreating were a fart away from death.

    Edit: meant to say, not sure how if it was flashing up with hits it wouldn't have as much use. new players need that time to absorb the information while also trying not to get murdered.
  • lhooqlhooq 666Members Join Date: 2016-01-05 Member: 210940Posts: 19 Fully active user
    How about we just ignore the tracking issue and make a "toggle option/slight adjustments" till all the players who take issue give up?
    Sounds more fairer.
  • develdevel Members Join Date: 2014-09-13 Member: 198444Posts: 352 Advanced user
    Tracking issue appeared just because a simplistic implementation. Showing damage on the player model solves that.

    But it doesn't solve the fundamental problem that healthbars have introduced: dumbing down the higher lifeform tactics. Now it's crag shuttling with no mind games.
  • SupaDupaNoodleSupaDupaNoodle Members Join Date: 2003-01-12 Member: 12232Posts: 495 Advanced user
    edited May 2016
    I really like the healthbars.

    Please keep. Great for pubs!

    Let comp players deactivate it via compmod.

    This idea of "you need to learn the skill of knowing how much damage you did to aliens intuitively" is yet another example why this game's player-base imploded: needless over-complication. Pro players may have adapted to the lack of damage feedback, but it is a flaw in the gameplay design that should have been fixed long ago.

    CSGO and Dota2 lets you know how much damage you did to enemy players too.
    SupaDupaNoodle
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    (Ribo @ Jan 2 2013, 10:43 AM) wrote »
     ##EMPHASIS ADDED##
    Ok, here is the problem. Every game, the aliens,in a pack, harass the marines to slowdown resource captures. The aliens save up for invisible, double armor rhinos. Everyone evolves into an invisible double armor rhino. The marines lose.


    Also, a good rule of thumb is that a rookie is equivalent to an empty player slot on a team.

  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The NetherlandsMembers, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 15,782 Advanced user
    Also "knowledge how many skulks it takes to screw in a light bulb" that stuff ain't skill in any way, shape or form. Those are just some tricks we learn and we all know, tricks are for kids!

    Guardian of the "magic cookiejar" 

    Retired forum Admin, I mostly used a flamethrower tank for disputes... Mostly

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  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    I don't think I'll be able to play this game comfortably until healthbars are removed.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


    mAL1CEdevelThe_Welsh_Wizardcaperp
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    coolitic wrote: »
    I don't think I'll be able to play this game comfortably until healthbars are removed.
    Using NS2+ you can turn on serverside blood. This will remove the healthbars. It is a sort of work around.

    I agree with pelagir. I don't foresee the healthbars being removed.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • Vman007Vman007 New YorkMembers Join Date: 2014-01-22 Member: 193411Posts: 25 Advanced user
    edited May 2016
    I really like the healthbars.

    Please keep. Great for pubs!

    Let comp players deactivate it via compmod.

    This idea of "you need to learn the skill of knowing how much damage you did to aliens intuitively" is yet another example why this game's player-base imploded: needless over-complication. Pro players may have adapted to the lack of damage feedback, but it is a flaw in the gameplay design that should have been fixed long ago.

    CSGO and Dota2 lets you know how much damage you did to enemy players too.

    CSGO doesn't show how much damage you did to an enemy. No self respecting fps game does. DOTA2 does have health bars but DOTA2 is high angle perspective like the commander view in NS2. The commander in NS2 can see the the enemy health bars and that is what usually happened. The commander or your teammates would tell you how much health the enemy has using a old school tactic called communication. Just clearing that up. Every game you play whether its FPS, MOBA, RTS, and even RPG you need to be able to learn the specifics of the game to better yourself in the game. Playing often you get the idea of how much dmg you do to an enemy relative to their health and lifeform. Dumbing it down to health bars is childish and the tracking on aliens is ridiculous. Unlike those games you listed aliens have to invest a lot of res to get a higher lifeform that now can be tracked very easily and thus killed easily. When in reality by using communication thru your team and your commander( who has top down view and can see healthbars); you could easily be able to pinpoint weak aliens. Marines got buffed big time maybe aliens can see a buff. Maybe aliens can have aimbot like marines do now...lol
    caperp
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The NetherlandsMembers, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 15,782 Advanced user
    edited May 2016
    Hmm a random thought here... Since knowing the exact amount of health an alien has (this is screwing over aliens a lot). And it does help with tracking for marines...

    Why not remove healthbars and generate an aquamarine marine HUD outline on your target, similar to how the healthbar is shown only on damage and goes away if you're not hitting and of course client side only... Take the exact HP out of the equation, yet give that aimtracking a boost. Since that seems to be the big thing for newbies being able to track better... I still think it would make aliens weak as hell what with their hideystealth gone when hit, but perhaps this idea will work instead of that HUGE healthbar obscuring and giving way too much information...

    And maybe only on scan/near obs or as research -> "NS motiontracking-like" yet only on damage shots. I just can't see why aliens would need this at all with Aura and alien vision...


    [edit addition]Based on what @F0rdPrefect just posted in this here thread: http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2284939/#Comment_2284939

    And perhaps Hives/Shades have an Aura around it to disable this outline alongside pustule popping and Ink? Similar to how scan/sieges are blocked...
    Post edited by Kouji_San on

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  • Deck_Deck_ Members Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Posts: 298 Advanced user
    edited May 2016
    *update as wrong thread -, but regarding the health bars - was this to try to balance out pub rounds and give marines more wins? I don't know how this is really going to help rookies as much as it's going to help decent shots and make it tougher on aliens. I thought not knowing the health of an alien life form was part of the game, or knowing it because your team talks to each other/commander tells you. Wouldn't this potentially change the way people attack targets in fights? A big part of this game is quick decision making with good aim. Now you're making the decision making (and the aim somewhat) part of it easier which is a big part of the battle.
  • r3aLiTyr3aLiTy Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-01-25 Member: 12743Posts: 31 Advanced user
    feels like it`s more of a borderline hack
    recommend to only enable on new player servers or tutorial only
    ysrn
    mAL1CEdevelmigalskicaperp
  • AliteAlite Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2007-03-02 Member: 60188Posts: 76 Fully active user
    I really like the healthbars.

    Please keep. Great for pubs!

    Let comp players deactivate it via compmod.

    This idea of "you need to learn the skill of knowing how much damage you did to aliens intuitively" is yet another example why this game's player-base imploded: needless over-complication. Pro players may have adapted to the lack of damage feedback, but it is a flaw in the gameplay design that should have been fixed long ago.

    CSGO and Dota2 lets you know how much damage you did to enemy players too.

    Doesn't CSGO show you the amount of dmg you did only AFTER you die? i.e. during a game you won't be able to know how much chip you got on another player, just that you hit him.
    As for Dota, that's a MOBA, literally nothing to do with ns2. You're using really poor examples.
    IronHorsecaperp
  • AsranielAsraniel Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 724Posts: 2,557 mod
    So after more playing, i really like the addition of the healthbars. It really helps me to understand whats going on, track the target etc. In short, it makes the game much more fun for me.

    I would love to see the balance numbers to see if anything needs to be done to buff especially higher lifeforms, but i have a feeling that effect will be minimal.

    By the way, csgo or dota are probably bad examples to use. I would use overwatch, which also has this feature, as an example.
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  • TinkiTinki Members Join Date: 2013-12-03 Member: 189715Posts: 110 Fully active user
    The new health-bar is a very good addition.
    Since i mostly play marine it's now easier to defend myself against a packplay (filthy teamplayers). And if a lifeform wants to help a skulk you can directly see if you need to target it or not. Also i don't need to asky my com "onos life" anymore ! As for the rare times i played aliens it gave me a half-aura buff for lerk spikes.
    Overall it's a nice buff for me so thanks !
    devel
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The NetherlandsMembers, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 15,782 Advanced user
    Tinki wrote: »
    The new health-bar is a very good addition.
    Since i mostly play marine it's now easier to defend myself against a packplay (filthy teamplayers). And if a lifeform wants to help a skulk you can directly see if you need to target it or not. Also i don't need to asky my com "onos life" anymore ! As for the rare times i played aliens it gave me a half-aura buff for lerk spikes.
    Overall it's a nice buff for me so thanks !

    Your coin must only have one side there @Tinki :tongue:

    Guardian of the "magic cookiejar" 

    Retired forum Admin, I mostly used a flamethrower tank for disputes... Mostly

    Retired EUPT Deputy | Moral Support | Squad 5 Blue | 102 1HP Skulk escapes and counting

  • PelargirPelargir Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Forum staff Join Date: 2013-07-02 Member: 185857Posts: 1,199 mod
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    Tinki wrote: »
    The new health-bar is a very good addition.
    Since i mostly play marine it's now easier to defend myself against a packplay (filthy teamplayers). And if a lifeform wants to help a skulk you can directly see if you need to target it or not. Also i don't need to asky my com "onos life" anymore ! As for the rare times i played aliens it gave me a half-aura buff for lerk spikes.
    Overall it's a nice buff for me so thanks !

    Your coin must only have one side there @Tinki :tongue:

    It's called sarcasm. :D
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  • SupaDupaNoodleSupaDupaNoodle Members Join Date: 2003-01-12 Member: 12232Posts: 495 Advanced user
    CSGO tells you how much damage you did to enemies after you died. But there are only 5 other enemy players to worry about in that game, unlike in NS2 -- at least on servers where most people play -- where there are dozens of lifeforms. Plus in CSGO you can't get health back as in NS2.

    Please, please, please don't remove this feature. Let compmod disable it, or let individual players disable it if they don't like it, or let individual server admins remove it if THEIR OWN community asks for it.

    Don't get swayed by the pernickety whines from the tiny minority of vociferous NS2 zealots who dominate these forums.

    Please! Think of the community at large :)
    SupaDupaNoodle
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    (Ribo @ Jan 2 2013, 10:43 AM) wrote »
     ##EMPHASIS ADDED##
    Ok, here is the problem. Every game, the aliens,in a pack, harass the marines to slowdown resource captures. The aliens save up for invisible, double armor rhinos. Everyone evolves into an invisible double armor rhino. The marines lose.


    Also, a good rule of thumb is that a rookie is equivalent to an empty player slot on a team.

  • HowserHowser UKMembers, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer Join Date: 2010-02-08 Member: 70488Posts: 654 Advanced user
    I played it earlier and like it... perhaps its implementation is a little heavy handed but do I believe there's something good in there. Out right removing it would be a bad choice so a rethink of how an enemies remaining health is displayed may be the better option.

    My thoughts are unifying it with the damage numbers in some way would still convey the information but remove the tracking assist and clutter. Maybe if the number was hp left after damage taken rather than the amount of damage itself. Either that or the colour and size of the numbers changed as their health got lower, say from green = full health and red = dead.

    Keep refining it please :)
    Vetinari
  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,469 Advanced user
    Howser wrote: »
    I played it earlier and like it... perhaps its implementation is a little heavy handed but do I believe there's something good in there. Out right removing it would be a bad choice so a rethink of how an enemies remaining health is displayed may be the better option.

    My thoughts are unifying it with the damage numbers in some way would still convey the information but remove the tracking assist and clutter. Maybe if the number was hp left after damage taken rather than the amount of damage itself. Either that or the colour and size of the numbers changed as their health got lower, say from green = full health and red = dead.

    Keep refining it please :)

    I think these suggestions are a great middle ground.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • develdevel Members Join Date: 2014-09-13 Member: 198444Posts: 352 Advanced user
    edited May 2016
    Howser wrote: »
    Keep refining it please :)

    Can't be fixed. (update: actually, the death cam may be the solution)

    Half of the higher lifeform gamplay is just gone.
    Post edited by devel on
    The_Welsh_Wizard
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