Health bars on enemies

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  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Posts: 2,689 admin
    health bars should be removed, they clutter up the screen even more. Or at least there should be a way to disable them
    Yup, this feedback has been heard and is being considered. :)
    [ Rek | Reklys | remedy | remi.D | blu.knight | Psyke | Sky ]
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  • DilligafDilligaf Members Join Date: 2014-05-25 Member: 196238Posts: 55 Advanced user
    Would rather see the health bar when a alien is in observatory range or has been scanned by the commander.
    VetinarimigalskiSquishpokePOOPFACEwooza
  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,469 Advanced user
    As marine, I really like the health bars... they are great for giving feedback on how much damage you actually deatl.

    As alien, this totally wrecks with my ability to play Onos. After all, a significant part of it is to fake running away, only to pop out behind some corner with more health than the pursuing marines thought.

    I think it can be summed up as "It removes most of the ambiguity about alien health for marines, allowing them to make most decisions a lot easier."
    remi wrote: »
    Your point about damage feedback at distance is correct, past the health bar distance, if you don't have damage numbers enabled you won't know how much damage you did nor know the enemy health.

    That does not sound like a good thing to me.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
    develmigalskicoolitic
  • deathshrouddeathshroud Members Join Date: 2010-04-10 Member: 71291Posts: 1,193 Advanced user
    edited May 2016
    1 thing i always like the idea of, was that aura from the shade hive (think its aura which allows you to see enemies) should also allow an alien to remain hidden from an obs and scan provided they are stationary (maybe also slow moving)
    AQ-Brainfood
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The NetherlandsMembers, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 15,782 Advanced user
    edited May 2016
    ^ Introducing "noob tubes" is a hard thing to do. You'd want the new players to have stuff that helps their gameplay. Yet isn't as effective as other things, which require more skill to use.

    The hard thing is, making it less effective for experienced players by adding that low skill floor and low skill ceiling. Making it not an optimal weapon, yet still fun for new players.

    This is related to the current newbie boost with added healthbars, which is also is too effective for deeper gameplay and is more effective the better a player is. That is not how you implement the "noob tube", which is what is happening here. Now we need a way to lower that effectiveness, although it is quite messed up in terms of advanced alien play (aliens are boned)

    Guardian of the "magic cookiejar" 

    Retired forum Admin, I mostly used a flamethrower tank for disputes... Mostly

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    Vetinaricoolitic
  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,469 Advanced user
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    ^ Introducing "noob tubes" is a hard thing to do. You'd want the new players to have stuff that helps their gameplay. Yet isn't as effective as other things, which require more skill to use.

    The hard thing is, making it less effective for experienced players by adding that low skill floor and low skill ceiling. Making it not an optimal weapon, yet still fun for new players.

    This is related to the current newbie boost with added healthbars, which is also is too effective for deeper gameplay and is more effective the better a player is. That is not how you implement the "noob tube", which is what is happening here. Now we need a way to lower that effectiveness, although it is quite messed up in terms of advanced alien play (aliens are boned)

    I'm still in favor of trying to turn the flamethrower into a noob tube.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • develdevel Members Join Date: 2014-09-13 Member: 198444Posts: 352 Advanced user
    edited May 2016
    Ok, I played today.

    The health bar is very useful as a marine: it 100% solves the dissolve issues and reduces the panic (update: next posts have the right word for it: "tracking improved" when shooting skulks).

    As an alien: I just don't do the cheesy stuff any more. And the marine last stand has become longer.
    Post edited by devel on
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, EnglandMembers, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Posts: 722 mod
    joshhh wrote: »
    @Kasharic

    Dude... no offense but I think you are only looking at the buff to rookies.

    The buff experienced players will gain is also significant. So if you think this will prevent rookies from being destroyed as quickly by us "pro" players (nice us vs them reference there) you are a being a bit ignorant.

    No one here disagrees that this wont help rookies. Most of the arguments against it are simply due to experienced players seeing the massive flaws by providing this info.

    oh I get that, and I don't disagree with you either, my intention is to try to remain clear sighted as to the intention behind the implementation of healthbars.

    People are calling for them to be outright removed or similar, which I think would be a bad idea, a much better idea would be to come up with a way for it to lessen the impact on higher skilled players but still help rookies... I personally cannot think of a way to balance it, but I think it is an important thing to keep in the game, it DOES help rookies... a lot... yeah, it also helps advanced players that have ludicrous amounts of hours playtime too, but that can be balanced in some way, i'm sure.

    People want the game to evolve and change, to get rid of the stale feeling, to shake things up and make the game feel fresh again. and when the devs make something that genuinely does make the game feel and play a little differently, people lose their shit about it and state that it should be removed. (there were a lot of people that were against the biomass system when it was first introduced too). rather than raging that the game is now imbalanced for whatever reasons, coming up with ways to "rebalance" the game would be far more appropriate, because at least then it doesn't come across as a fear of change.

    The gorgeous patch and the reinforced patch were both huge, game changing monolithic patches, the dev team stated early on that they wanted to abandon the monolithic approach and do gradual integration or "rapid iteration" with the changes... if with every single change people build barriers and hide behind current balance (which most believe is stale now anyway) then nothing will ever actually get changed and NS2 will indeed die.

    In short, I would rather look at the benefits of the new things the patches bring and deal with the negatives over time, than kick up a fuss about new things because of the negatives that could be solved later.
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    Yojimbo
  • aeroripperaeroripper NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42471Posts: 2,423 mod
    Some feedback:

    1) Health bars are a nice addition, especially for marines. Although I dislike the quickness that they disappear. I think they would be much easier to read if they stayed open for 7-10 seconds after the alien takes damage from your gun. This is especially true for the marine commander, where its confusing seeing alien health bars pop in and out quickly so its hard to keep track of health in a room full of aliens.

    2) Health bars really seems like it should have an option to turn on and off, similar to other games. Leave them on by default though.
  • sotanahtsotanaht Members Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Posts: 1,020 Fully active user
    edited May 2016
    Overwhelming feedback in game "Health bars make aliens MUCH easier to track [with rifles]"

    It feels a lot like those old neon alien skins. Sure you have to chip them before it shows up, but once you are on target the healthbar does the rest.

    On a more personal note, I didn't find the health information itself to be very useful. Armor values are hard to see on the bars, so the at a glance read shows "full" until the alien gets to about 1/3rd to 1/4th health. Onos are also too big to read the bars at all. When you are targetting their center or wherever you have the cleanest shot the bar is usually near the top of your screen if not completely off the screen, rendering it at least impractical if not completely useless.

    All it took was a single short stomp of a game to see all of these problems. I know you want to get these builds out fast and get feedback, but your own internal testing should have been sufficient to see where this was going. You do still test these things internally right?
    develVetinarilhooq
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United StatesMembers Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Posts: 729 Advanced user
    Well I tried the change and still think it fubar's balance heavily into Marines favor...

    With that bright red bar hovering over them it's virtually impossible to lose track of an alien during a fight. Even with my horrible aim at tracking I was able to down skulks easier...

    I still think it will wreck Onos play also (haven't been able to try it with Onos yet) but as others have said a HUGE part of playing Onos is the Marines not knowing whether you're at full health or half dead. I can't even begin to guess how many times I've managed to lure Marines into an ambush because I acted like I was low on hp.. Seems like those days are gone forever with these health bars...

    Doesn't seem to help Aliens much at all.. Most engagements I could barely notice them due to being so close... They certainly make tracking targets on Marine much MUCH easier though.
  • amoralamoral Members Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177250Posts: 1,331 Advanced user
    bleh, tried,

    it's distracting, and obscures vision, which may be shitty sometimes, but it also makes tracking easier, because you just need to aim at that thing under the giant red bar.

    don't know how i feel about it actually. but juking is made harder now as a skulk.
    IronHorsedevelcoolitic
  • fleasfleas Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2007-10-13 Member: 62623Posts: 39 Advanced user
    edited May 2016
    sorry, in my opinion I feel that this health bar thing is a bad thing unless its given to only rookies or people with certain no. of hours and even still its like taking away a crosshair to them which they will be dependant on.

    Pretty sure that the reason you become good at games is knowing the map, mechanics and getting familiar with movement/how much shots it takes to kill something. Onos now can't fake rush in with low hp. Onos is a lot harder to play or rather linear(low hp=heal up or die instantly)

    I'm sure a lot of people can give reasons why health bar is really a bad idea.

    About aura, I know ironhorse says that aura still able to see through walls and stuff. But part of it why its good is because of the health indicator. It isn't that obvious but when I see dark red, I know its at most 2 swipes/bites.

    sorry, but if you still feel that health bars are important to the game for some other reason or ...etc I hope you can let me turn it off so I don't feel like I'm cheating by knowing their current HP
    migalskidevellhooqThe_Welsh_Wizard
  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Posts: 2,689 admin
    edited May 2016
    aeroripper wrote: »
    Some feedback:

    1) Health bars are a nice addition, especially for marines. Although I dislike the quickness that they disappear. I think they would be much easier to read if they stayed open for 7-10 seconds after the alien takes damage from your gun. This is especially true for the marine commander, where its confusing seeing alien health bars pop in and out quickly so its hard to keep track of health in a room full of aliens.

    2) Health bars really seems like it should have an option to turn on and off, similar to other games. Leave them on by default though.

    It's not meant to display for commanders, that sounds like a bug. I actually had the mark time set to 5 seconds in early testing, but given the pace of NS2 it felt like it was staying on for too long. Overwatch actually keeps theirs on for 7 seconds! After listening to playtester feedback, I dropped it down to 2 seconds, and added a faster mark loss time for behind cover. After that I thought it felt like a pretty good balance.
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    Doesn't seem to help Aliens much at all.. Most engagements I could barely notice them due to being so close...
    I do think some more tweaks would be good, especially for the bar colors to make them a bit more readable, and maybe to give a different timing for when aliens attack since their attack speed is so much slower than marines. When I was playing with it, I thought it felt good with ranged attacks like with the gorge but it didn't really help at all as a skulk due to the readability / proximity / and timings of those engagements from the skulk perspective.

    Some of my own anecdotal experiences with this change:
    • I had one instance of a fade jumping on me while I was standing in a corner, and just start swiping, and I just held the trigger. I ended up dying, but I saw the fade had about 10% health by the time I died and it made me smile and I called him out on how close he got to death.
    • I was spitting a marine who was in their base, with a few skulks around me, trying to bait him in. He wasn't taking the bait, but after a few spits I noticed the commander stopped medding him, and so we rushed in and killed him while he was weak.
    • I saw a fade flying through the room I was in. I had no idea how much health he had. I wasn't able to hit him before he left the room out the other side (I might have been reloading, or just not aiming well).
    • I was a skulk, and I had gone in first and taken a bunch of damage. I ran up the wall and around the marines knowing that I'd make good bait since they could see how low I was. My teammates came in and crushed the marines.
    [ Rek | Reklys | remedy | remi.D | blu.knight | Psyke | Sky ]
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  • develdevel Members Join Date: 2014-09-13 Member: 198444Posts: 352 Advanced user
    FYI, responding only to the feedback you like is a bit "infuriating".
    cooliticmigalskicaperpThe_Welsh_Wizard
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The NetherlandsMembers, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 15,782 Advanced user
    Random thought.... Like way too random... What is a health bar, sounds like some new age wellness center or something :trollface:

    Guardian of the "magic cookiejar" 

    Retired forum Admin, I mostly used a flamethrower tank for disputes... Mostly

    Retired EUPT Deputy | Moral Support | Squad 5 Blue | 102 1HP Skulk escapes and counting

    coolitic
  • xen32xen32 Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Posts: 1,011 Advanced user
    Commander can already select enemy and tell exact HP/AP numbers, as have been mentioned before, experienced players know how much health enemy has in any possible form (lifeform, carapace and armor upgrades of any level), so I don't see why not have healthbars.... Just saves time on doing math.

    Downside for me is, I have to get used to it, because right now, it is another visual clutter on the screen, and I am poor at aiming. But it is just a habit thing, my brain will learn to filter it out after some time.

    Also, you could see healthbars in previous builds as well, only during marine spawn, tho...
    migalskilhooq
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,194 admin
    @xen32 I am an "experienced player" but that doesn't mean I know the health of an alien as it enters the room. The amount of times I've died from an Onos bluffing is evidence of this.


    So last night I discovered another powerful thing about HP bars : battlefield effects and chaos no longer stop you from tracking the lifeform.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

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  • MoFo1MoFo1 United StatesMembers Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Posts: 729 Advanced user
    IronHorse wrote: »

    So last night I discovered another powerful thing about HP bars : battlefield effects and chaos no longer stop you from tracking the lifeform.

    There's pretty much nothing that can cause you to lose track of an Alien you're fighting now. Just aim below the red bar and you're almost guaranteed to hit...

    This has already made me a FAR more passive Alien, especially when Fade or Onos. Just a bit ago I played a game where I was fade and got low on health so I blinked up into a vent... Normally I would've just waited a moment then made a run for our hive, but now with health bars showing anyone who hit me how low I was, I didn't dare leave that vent! Sat there for a good 3+ minutes waiting for my hp to regen on it's own.
    IronHorselhooq
  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Posts: 2,689 admin
    edited May 2016
    devel wrote: »
    FYI, responding only to the feedback you like is a bit "infuriating".

    I'm sorry you feel that way. I am reading all the feedback in this thread. Just because I'm not responding doesn't mean it's not being heard.
    [ Rek | Reklys | remedy | remi.D | blu.knight | Psyke | Sky ]
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  • Vman007Vman007 New YorkMembers Join Date: 2014-01-22 Member: 193411Posts: 25 Advanced user
    It should be a server based decision whether to have health bars or not. That way the lower skilled servers can have it and rookies can learn. While the more moderate to high skilled servers should not have it cause it does make it easier for marines to kill higher lifeforms. I often bluff with marines as a higher lifeform to make them expel their clip. I don't know of one FPS that has dumbed down gameplay by adding a healthbar on top of their head.
    caperplhooq
  • amoralamoral Members Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177250Posts: 1,331 Advanced user
    IronHorse wrote: »
    @xen32 I am an "experienced player" but that doesn't mean I know the health of an alien as it enters the room. The amount of times I've died from an Onos bluffing is evidence of this.


    So last night I discovered another powerful thing about HP bars : battlefield effects and chaos no longer stop you from tracking the lifeform.

    made a couple kills like that as marines too. pistolling a running fade the far end of your range is a lot easier. think I got a kill between some boxes that i never would have gone for before. but i could see the red bar move back in line with my shot.
  • Vman007Vman007 New YorkMembers Join Date: 2014-01-22 Member: 193411Posts: 25 Advanced user
    edited May 2016
    remi wrote: »
    Vman007 wrote: »
    It should be a server based decision whether to have health bars or not. That way the lower skilled servers can have it and rookies can learn. While the more moderate to high skilled servers should not have it cause it does make it easier for marines to kill higher lifeforms. I often bluff with marines as a higher lifeform to make them expel their clip. I don't know of one FPS that has dumbed down gameplay by adding a healthbar on top of their head.

    This is something I absolutely disagree with, and is a very dangerous line of thinking. It is important for players to have a stable game experience from rookie to vet, across a multitude of servers.

    Well im trying to provide a solution to a extremelly disappointing gameplay addition. This effects aliens exponentially more than it does marines. And about stable experience changing the gameplay every month doesn't really make it easier for rookies. Does NS2 have the dumbest rookies on earth because that is pretty much what you guys have been doing and saying with your rhetoric as of late. Basically all the FPS out there don't have a health bar because not knowing your enemies health is part of the experience. You learn how much a gun's damages your opponent and how much health they have by playing more. This is how every single game works. I understand that it does help rookies but it makes it way too easy to kill a fade or lerk or an onos for anyone that has played the game over a 100hrs. I understand the hardest thing in the world is for anyone to say "I or We are wrong" but sometimes as devs you got to actually listen to your community instead of just ignoring them completely. Which you guys have been doing. Guaranteed you'll have your "meeting" and then say that "we discussed it, but we are always right 100% of the time. So go to hell to everyone that stuck around, even when UWE gave up on it and only just came back to purge the loyal community". Understand why every FPS has it set up with no health bar and how it negatively effects aliens gameplay. Maybe another solution i think someone already said would be to let the rookies have the health bar until a certain point maybe even 100hrs then remove it by then they'll have learned and maybe be hooked.
    Post edited by Vman007 on
    lhooq
  • deathshrouddeathshroud Members Join Date: 2010-04-10 Member: 71291Posts: 1,193 Advanced user
    remi wrote: »
    Vman007 wrote: »
    It should be a server based decision whether to have health bars or not. That way the lower skilled servers can have it and rookies can learn. While the more moderate to high skilled servers should not have it cause it does make it easier for marines to kill higher lifeforms. I often bluff with marines as a higher lifeform to make them expel their clip. I don't know of one FPS that has dumbed down gameplay by adding a healthbar on top of their head.

    This is something I absolutely disagree with, and is a very dangerous line of thinking. It is important for players to have a stable game experience from rookie to vet, across a multitude of servers.

    doesnt it also make aura abit less useful?
    AQ-Brainfood
    The_Welsh_Wizard
  • fleasfleas Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2007-10-13 Member: 62623Posts: 39 Advanced user
    edited May 2016
    honestly, I can see why you guys do this health bar thing. Please correct me if I'm wrong; but the health bar is to show how much you have damaged(much like dmg indicator) but with the end result(so you know if you actually did damage or something).

    Probably this will help solve people going "why are you not dead yet?"

    but if you hear from people who played this game for quite sometime, you will realised that Natural-selection series is very different from the rest of other games like dirty bomb, tf2, cs, COD...etc. that is because you invest a lifeform. If you die as a lifeform, its very hard to save up. These games have class based games and you can choose. Dying is normal in those games.

    If you going to use DOTA 2 or MMOBA game as an example; its still different. In MMOBA you can farm and get items. When u die, you lose some gold and certain ITEMS(like special ones).


    In my opinion, I find that showing health bars(unless being told by commander) is going to give the game undesirable outcome. All the aliens lifeform will play extremely passive. There will be almost no ballsy lifeform.

    Yes, it will change the way the game is played but it will feel like just a run and shoot style(combat) which defeats the reason why Natural-selection is unique. Health bars would work for combat mode though.

    meh I don't know. at least let me remove it and I try pretend you guys didn't create it. Feels like civil war to me.
    caperpThe_Welsh_Wizard
  • amoralamoral Members Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177250Posts: 1,331 Advanced user
    remi wrote: »
    Vman007 wrote: »
    It should be a server based decision whether to have health bars or not. That way the lower skilled servers can have it and rookies can learn. While the more moderate to high skilled servers should not have it cause it does make it easier for marines to kill higher lifeforms. I often bluff with marines as a higher lifeform to make them expel their clip. I don't know of one FPS that has dumbed down gameplay by adding a healthbar on top of their head.

    This is something I absolutely disagree with, and is a very dangerous line of thinking. It is important for players to have a stable game experience from rookie to vet, across a multitude of servers.

    doesnt it also make aura abit less useful?

    nah, the enemy needs to get tagged first whereas aura will just tell you upfront who has been damaged.
    Vetinari
  • YojimboYojimbo EnglandMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Posts: 1,252 Advanced user
    Is the healthbar localized or does the damage you do appear to other players aswell?
    Today's rookies are tomorrow's vets.

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    George Carlin.
  • amoralamoral Members Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177250Posts: 1,331 Advanced user
    Yojimbo wrote: »
    Is the healthbar localized or does the damage you do appear to other players aswell?

    you're the only one that sees it, but it makes tracking far off enemies a whole lot easier... and tracking things in melee range... meh. yeah, marines got buffed.
    Yojimbocooliticcaperplhooq
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