2000 vs 2000 skill games

xtalxtal aka X-rayCat Join Date: 2009-06-28 Member: 67961Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 74 Advanced user
Hey, on 20 player servers, with teams that have 2000 vs 2000 skill, 95% of games finish with marines win. Please address this issue. Thank you :)
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Comments

  • CalegoCalego Join Date: 2013-01-24 Member: 181848Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 763 Advanced user
    Stats? Get your server op to set up Wonitor since Hive is coming "soon" so we can see the glorious numbers.

    Also: I think it's always been the case that alien wins happen in lower skill settings, gradiating to marine wins as skill increases (certainly in ENSL). It's just that marines who shoot 30-40% consistently are pretty dang impossible to counter, which honestly isn't a big problem IMO. It's skill.

    So all that to say: What manner of suggestion do you have to fix this?
    Nordicmigalski
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 771 Advanced user
    Calego wrote: »
    Stats? Get your server op to set up Wonitor since Hive is coming "soon" so we can see the glorious numbers.

    Also: I think it's always been the case that alien wins happen in lower skill settings, gradiating to marine wins as skill increases (certainly in ENSL). It's just that marines who shoot 30-40% consistently are pretty dang impossible to counter, which honestly isn't a big problem IMO. It's skill.

    So all that to say: What manner of suggestion do you have to fix this?

    Reduce Rifle damage by 50% and Shotgun damage by 70% for all servers with skill level 2000+. Should do the trick for aliens.
    Calego
  • CalegoCalego Join Date: 2013-01-24 Member: 181848Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 763 Advanced user
    Calego wrote: »
    Stats? Get your server op to set up Wonitor since Hive is coming "soon" so we can see the glorious numbers.

    Also: I think it's always been the case that alien wins happen in lower skill settings, gradiating to marine wins as skill increases (certainly in ENSL). It's just that marines who shoot 30-40% consistently are pretty dang impossible to counter, which honestly isn't a big problem IMO. It's skill.

    So all that to say: What manner of suggestion do you have to fix this?

    Reduce Rifle damage by 50% and Shotgun damage by 70% for all servers with skill level 2000+. Should do the trick for aliens.

    He ain't wrong...
    BestProfileName
  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 1,542 Advanced user
    Calego wrote: »
    Stats? Get your server op to set up Wonitor since Hive is coming "soon" so we can see the glorious numbers.

    Also: I think it's always been the case that alien wins happen in lower skill settings, gradiating to marine wins as skill increases (certainly in ENSL). It's just that marines who shoot 30-40% consistently are pretty dang impossible to counter, which honestly isn't a big problem IMO. It's skill.

    So all that to say: What manner of suggestion do you have to fix this?

    It's not only the Aim %. It is the number of marines too. More field units means more LOS/exit covered for one room. Also more marine coming to rescue that RT, and more often (fast respawn).
    ChubbChubbs ???

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  • CalegoCalego Join Date: 2013-01-24 Member: 181848Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 763 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    A new feature will be announced with the next patch. Anyone with a hive skill greater than or equal to 2000 will be forced to play with a steam controller. Once you reach or pass 2000 hive skill the game will no longer accept keyboard and mouse input. It will only work with a steam controller. This feature will not go away, even if you drop below 2000 hive skill. It is permanent once it is set.

    If any player with less than 50 hours recorded in hive is accused of being a smurf by three unique players then he will be forced to use a steam controller the same was as mentioned above. To do this, ns2 will be using an advanced regex code that will parse register if the player's name and the word smurf are used in the same chat message.

    ENSL: Sponsored by Valve Electronics.
    Nordic
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 15,780 Advanced user
    Oh I know!, big head mode, narrower FoV and bigger viewmodel for marines as their skill increases :trollface:

    Guardian of the "magic cookiejar" 

    Retired forum Admin, I mostly used a flamethrower tank for disputes... Mostly

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  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,351 Advanced user
    edited February 2016
    It's not only the Aim %. It is the number of marines too. More field units means more LOS/exit covered for one room. Also more marine coming to rescue that RT, and more often (fast respawn).

    Thats true.
    Only on wooza this doesnt matter.
    Looks like they need more than 21 marines there to win more than 50% of the games.
    Maybe 60 slot can help them, 5 marines in each room are not enough.
    image
  • _INTER__INTER_ Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68392Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 822 Advanced user
    edited February 2016
    advanced regex code that will parse register
    What a beautiful thing, maybe one day it will be like that
    Warforce17 wrote: »
    RapGod wrote: »
    matso wrote: »
    --> pistol time axe time welder time riflebutt time
  • BlrgBlrg Join Date: 2013-09-01 Member: 187580Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 153 Advanced user
    Calego wrote: »
    So all that to say: What manner of suggestion do you have to fix this?

    That is one of the things that would probably be solved with 2 hive skills, one for marines and one for aliens.
    With the present skill system maybe you need players with average 2500 skill in aliens to beat a 2000 skill marine team (just saying random numbers to explain my point). With 2 sets of skills you solve this. A team of 2000 alien skill should be balanced to a 2000 marine skill team.

    The other point is that maybe some people will get to 4000 skill as marine, but nobody will get there as an alien (because of the reasons that you exposed before)

    Nordic
  • MaxAmusMaxAmus UK Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24779Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 563 Advanced user
    edited February 2016
    WOW WOW WOW SHUT THE FRONT DOOR! Can you tell me, how this skill system effects the outcome of a game?!! :trollface:

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  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 771 Advanced user
    dePARA wrote: »
    It's not only the Aim %. It is the number of marines too. More field units means more LOS/exit covered for one room. Also more marine coming to rescue that RT, and more often (fast respawn).

    Thats true.
    Only on wooza this doesnt matter.
    Looks like they need more than 21 marines there to win more than 50% of the games.
    Maybe 60 slot can help them, 5 marines in each room are not enough.

    One time there was a 100 slot server.
  • [AwE]Sentinel[AwE]Sentinel Join Date: 2012-06-05 Member: 152949Members Posts: 681 Fully active user
    Ranged Spores FTW!
    "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win" - 孫子 "When you think you win, tighten the strap of your helmet"

    ns2_yakushima, ns2_honorguard
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    edited February 2016
    This is why there were only ever 2 world champs in ns2: the problem became obvious quite early on.
    wut? I don't understand what this means.. As long as both teams play both factions, the imbalance between factions doesn't matter in a competitive setting. It might make the games a bit more stale and predictable - but it shouldn't be the cause of one team dominating.
    The higher the skill, the more likely marines are to win. The lower the average ping, the more likely marines are to win.
    Perhaps. However, 95% winrate does not seem representative of how favored marines actually are in high level play. I don't know where he got the 95% figure from, but I'm assuming it's correct for the sake of the argument.

    What I would guess is going on here. Is that a large majority of 2000+ elo players, have a positive bias for the marine side. They may play that faction more often and as a result be better at this faction.

    I think the solution is to separate alien and marine elo.

    Worth mentioning is also, that aliens simply require a lot more team work and communication than marines do. So you wouldn't really expect a pub team to win against a marine team at this level. Non the less, I think a separation of the elo between factions would help things for the above mentioned reason.
  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 1,542 Advanced user
    I don't think the 2000+ play more as marines. Personally i don't.

    The thing is they absolutely :
    -Aim better (or kill more)
    -Know where to go to cover the key locations
    -React faster when a key location is cleared by alien

    So the frontline shifts from the middle of the map to the alien naturals or worse, at hive doors. Basically in this conditions, the aliens have no word to say in early game. It's usually a come back or death in box. GG is called before it happens.


    ChubbChubbs ???

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  • GrissiGrissi Join Date: 2003-08-28 Member: 20314Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 488 Advanced user
    Marines scale way better with numbers, there is more value in each marine on the field than alien.

    In an 6v6 envierment its easier to play marines effectivly than aliens, the reason is being that aliens need to coordinate their engagement much more than the marines do.
    There is no competitive balance or casual players balance. The game is either balanced or not balanced.
    It's the same game after all.


    NS1 competitive play


    All my posts are my personal view, I do not speak for a community or anyone else.
    G_Lock
  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 1,542 Advanced user
    If the new hive system does not include w/l it could. But... well... apparently it's gonna be based on the same principles. Go luck for balancing a game.

    PS: I sincerely hope for an accurate system. We'll see.
    ChubbChubbs ???

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  • IxianIxian Denmark Join Date: 2014-03-16 Member: 194783Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 182 Advanced user
    Aliens should use teamwork - Its super effective.

    Besides - People seem to know alot more about how to play together as marines than playing together as aliens.
    cooliticwooza
  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 1,542 Advanced user
    I think I am gonna stay aside with
    pop corn... check
    Beer... check
    Cookies... check
    Peanuts anyone?
    ChubbChubbs ???

    Reach me on NS2 forums in :
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  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    If the new hive system does not include w/l it could. But... well... apparently it's gonna be based on the same principles. Go luck for balancing a game.
    You are absolutely incapable of separating one issue from another aren't you?
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    edited February 2016
    In theory, the hive skill doesnt matter if teams are balanced.
    The marines will shoot better, the skulks will be sneakier.
    In practice tho, marines might be easier to learn for rookies.

    Your problem seems to me more like a mixture of high skill and server size.
    See, endgame marines can very quickly kill a hive if they coordinate a strike
    which becomes increasingly common as skill increase and increasingly potent as player slots increase.

    But on the other hand aliens can rush a cc faster earlygame as well as have many onos endgame so its hard to tell what to balance
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 15,780 Advanced user
    It kinda reminds me of...

    better hitreg OR better aiming players both work in favor of the marines, this is a known factor that has haunted NS2/NS balancing for ever

    Guardian of the "magic cookiejar" 

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  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,754 Advanced user
    edited February 2016
    Incredibly well said post. Organized and perfect. I don't think you missed a point either.

    @moultano, what are your thoughts on the above post.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,351 Advanced user
    edited February 2016
    There is one thing no system in the world can calculate, its called "the human factor"

    Maybe one good on paper player has a bad day and cant hit s**t (happenes).
    Or a team that looks weaker on paper has much better teamplay cause good communication or better decisions.
    Even luck is a factor.

    So you cant have perfectly balanced rounds, its impossible.
    Especial in times with 1000 points and 0 point rookies.
    What a system like hive can do is to break a obvious stack (1900 vs 500 skill), the result of the round comes from the human factor.
    image
    CCTEEWob
  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members Posts: 618 Advanced user
    I'm of the opinion that hive is the best tool we have but it is also extremely limited. Its useful as a rough gauge and should not be relied on for "even teams". Even if hive scores accurately reflect skill level, there is nothing you can do when you get a bad mix of players with large variances in skill. This is made worse by hive score being relative to the servers played, servers that do not report to hive or players that just don't play enough to get an accurate reading, resulting in inaccurate scores.

    The solution is to have people of similar skill play together, but we have neither the player base nor system necessary for that. My solution is to lower expectations to avoid disappointment.

    None of this is relevant to the OP where marines gradually become more dominant as the skill level increases. I can't imagine a solution that buffs/nerfs a side that would not affect the balance of the other skill range. Maybe the OP could look into playing the pub balance comp mod? Not sure if it will help, but it seems an attempt at balance for the higher skill levels.
  • TheriusTherius Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 750 Advanced user
    @NousWanderer

    Everything you said is true. But none of those problems would be solved by having the skill measure include judgmental factors instead of pure W/L. It would only introduce bias and incentivise bad player behaviour (skill farming), but all of the problems mentioned above would still exist. Teams would still be composed of an amalgamation of different skill values and playing a role one's not used to would still distort the prediction.
    _INTER_Me9aSantaClaws
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