I've finished collecting and organizing all the suggestions in the original document. I'm pretty sure I got everything, but if you don't see something that was suggested, please PM me and I'll add it in.
It's important to note that this document and thread are a brainstorming activity. This is not a list of changes that are intended to be implemented. Please keep the discussion going, there's a lot of great ideas here.
After reading through all the suggestions, I feel that's it is pretty clear that a lot can be done to simplify the game through 'polish' before needing to resort to gameplay changes. The things like reordering the evolve menu and adding descriptions that can aid players in learning each lifeform's movement style caught my attention in particular.
If lerk transition animations stay the same, (exploitable, erratic) coming in for the risky bite is still less risky.
If they're fixed, the risk vs reward may not be worth biting and you'd want spores instead?
For the record, I'm all for making the Lerk an easier to shoot, tankier support role provided we can find a way to fill that power vacuum created in the pre-mid game timeframe.
As an alien lerk primary, I have no issue with transition animations being smoothed out to ensure that hitboxes retain some visual logic, but I wouldn't want ranged spores as a compensatory measure. As long as we're not altering lerk movement for the player controlling the lerk, I have no concerns with such improvements. If a reassessment of lerk hitboxes means that they're easier to shoot in a subset of cases, so be it, but I remain unconvinced that the majority of top lerks depend upon faulty animations in the first place. The arguments in this thread seem to be somewhat implausible when considering how many lerks flash every day in countless pub games. Some are maintaining that lerks expose themselves to insufficient risk due to those mechanics in general, and I just don't see it in practice. Rookies flash virtually every alien lifeform, and bad lerks drop almost instantly. Even average lerks struggle.
Maybe instead of messing with bite, replacing spikes with ranged spores in general would be a good simplifying step since rookies already have a problem utilizing them.
[...]
This way you don't change the way you move as a Lerk but the animations are less erratic for rookies, you have a clear support role that any rookie can utilize (ranged spores) with low risk, the high risk bite is even higher now, and you finally have a game ending tech / proper role for the late game lerk.
I have to ask: why should spores - which are an incredible crowd control tool in their current form - be low risk? Simplification shouldn't come at the cost of interesting and often useful mechanics. Perhaps there's an argument to be made for giving spores an alt fire (ranged) with a different (higher) energy cost, but NS2 generally veers away from alt fire attacks in the first place, and I'm not sure the added utility would be worth the increased complexity. I'd argue that the combination of spores and umbra already gives the lerk an excellent late game position re: team support. Furthermore, lerks can already contribute a great deal without those upgrades, especially if you consider their ability to harass jetpackers and chip ill-attentive exos from afar.
Beefing up the lerk seems to run counter to the defining characteristics of the lifeform: a high-mobility glass cannon with multiple offensive and defensive options. The check on the lerk's mobility and versatility is its fragility. People forget that it's an unrecoverable 30 p.res investment which can be absolutely annihilated by a single competent shotgunner at any choke point, and which can be repelled from almost any distance with lmg fire when chipping.
If animation transitions are the problem because a subset of good lerks depend upon them to effectively manipulate hitboxes in their favor, then the animation transitions should be worked on first and foremost so that this doesn't happen. Everything else sounds like overreaching at this point in the discussion.
Alright, folks.
After reading through all the suggestions, I feel that's it is pretty clear that a lot can be done to simplify the game through 'polish' before needing to resort to gameplay changes. The things like reordering the evolve menu and adding descriptions that can aid players in learning each lifeform's movement style caught my attention in particular.
About those times where everyone is sitting in the Ready Room for a good long while because everyone wants to play the action game and not command -
What about allowing a commander to open a UI to perform command functions from anywhere, rather than requiring them to be locked away in some specific place? Could be as simple as opening the map. They could do what is needed and then rejoin the action. Of course, for safety's sake being locked away in the hive or command chair would be the best place to be. But other times they might be able to be just as effective popping in and out of the UI while doing other things in the action game.
I have to ask: why should spores - which are an incredible crowd control tool in their current form - be low risk? Simplification shouldn't come at the cost of interesting and often useful mechanics.
Tier 1 spores were once in this game and adjusted over many builds to find that sweet balanced spot before they were moved to T3 and powerful. (This addresses @mattji104 's concern)
The idea is to step away from the current weapon configuration for the lifeform, which is high risk and high risk - to high risk (bite) and low risk (spore) - in order to lessen the curve in learning and playing arguably the most difficult class for rookies. They have a hard enough time learning how to fly; let alone hovering, while dodging, pancaking, and spiking, from the perfect distance, and then knowing when to leave the room on time etc etc ...
Compare this to the aforementioned Peek > Shoot > Fly away employment.
Provide an easy to use and effective mechanic that is not OP, (we already have those values) yet retain that high risk bite (would now be higher risk with fixed animations) engagement to retain the skill ceiling.
This is just so that the class is easier to learn and yet still difficult to master.
If animation transitions are the problem because a subset of good lerks depend upon them to effectively manipulate hitboxes in their favor, then the animation transitions should be worked on first and foremost so that this doesn't happen. Everything else sounds like overreaching at this point in the discussion.
Why are we restricted only to making them easier to kill for rookies and not making them easier to learn how to play as well??
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
@IronHorse You balanced ranged spores for tier 1 in ns2? I'm only even considering ranged, cropdust type has no place in the game as far as I'm comcerned lol
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
The damage values - and no there was no ranged, so you'd have to adjust the size of the AOE and maybe slightly adjust dmg again, but it's a great starting place for what everyone felt was balanced at the time.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
NS2 does not need to be simplified, it needs even more stuff to do in it. However players need to be eased into the experience slowly. What best way to do this?
Co-op Campaign http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/127498/unofficial-co-op-campaign where players start as Marines, and can progress through various challenges and enemies at more or less their own pace as a small team of ~4-8 people. This would allow them share information and learn the game together very easily.
We already have metabolize -> advance metabolize. There is precedent for t1 spores, and then advanced t3 spores when large aoe for crushing turtles. As long as movement is not touched, I think changing attack mechanics is fine. I honestly like the idea of ranged spores instead of spikes.
I think ranges spores would be easier on rookies, while retaining a high skill curve.
This.....this...document....everything in it is.....is...........*sniff*.....IT'S BEAUTIFUL!!!!! Now I know nothing is guaranteed,but just knowing that the Devs/CDT are just considering these wonderful suggestions.....it warms my heart to see that you guys actually listen to us!
And I know this suggestion isn't really that big.......but SCORE for the Bio-Luminescence getting in! Woo!......yeah I'll go now
@coolitic Yeah,any one of these could be game breaking if done incorrectly! But even if it was,i'd still be excited to get some new features in NS2! Especially if it involves....B-bio-Luminescence.....i'm sorry it's just so pretty!!!
And I know this suggestion isn't really that big.......but SCORE for the Bio-Luminescence getting in! Woo!......yeah I'll go now
The bioluminescence is getting more attention that this document. It has already been put on the official trello board to be worked on, but only as an experiment. I don't know if it will go in, but at least it is being seriously considered.
@Nordic
Sorry,I've always been fascinated with Bio-Luminescent creatures,they're so pretty! But Bio-Luminescence aside,I love almost all suggestions in that document! (Especially ranged attacks for Fade,wonder how that'll work out.....)
The damage values - and no there was no ranged, so you'd have to adjust the size of the AOE and maybe slightly adjust dmg again, but it's a great starting place for what everyone felt was balanced at the time.
Are we talking about spores that only damage health and not armour?
The reason I ask is because the damage that spikes do to armour is incredibly useful for the alien team as it reduces the number of bites/swiped required by the team to the point it is often mandatory to have effective fades/skulks in the mid to late game. Repairing armour damage requires marines to retreat and find another marine to weld them. Spikes become even more effective as armour decreases since it is directly reducing their health requiring a lot more medpacks.
Spikes do damage to health and armour and therefor force the marine commander to spend tres on meds and forces marines to spend pres on welders.
Is there a reason why spikes need to be on tier 3 and not tier 2? Playing a lerk with a high risk bite, spores and umbra just seems incredibly dull at tier 2. I don't find umbra spamming to be especially rewarding since I can't really gauge the impact it is having even if I know it is having impact. I suggest the following:
Tier 1 Spores, Bite
Tier 2 Spikes
Tier 3 Umbra (This could possibly be an upgrade to spores so that it does spores and umbra at the same time, rather than awkward spamming of 2 gases)
or (who said we can only have one unlock per tier?)
Lerk bilebomb was tested and was found to be OP during balance mod testing I understand. But honestly I think as a tier 3 ability I don't really see the issues since the movement/animation jerking wont be the same ?
ScatterJoin Date: 2012-09-02Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
Sorry it was a tier 3 lerk ability in NS1 which increased the attack speed/movement rate of nearby aliens when active. Probably would need rework to not overlap with drifter abilities.
Hey guys, small update. I don't want to get anyone's hopes too high (don't expect immediate changes) - But we've all been reading this thread and I know for a fact it's been hugely helpful to the Tutorial Committee alone. Hopefully we can look at implementing some of these ideas in the not-too-distant future, but for now things are quite hectic/busy for the new team (if you look at the Trello there's a few mini projects that are currently taking most of our time).
But thank you again- this thread has been immensely eye-opening and helpful. Even though you might not see immediate and direct change in the short term, the feedback here will continue to be referenced and trickle through many of our choices to come for a long time.
(And keep posting if you have something more to add!)
@rantology This is rather good news! I'm gonna go check out the Trello (don't really look at it) and see what's new! I can't wait to see what the future holds for NS2!
EDIT:Umm.....hehe....i-if anyone could possibly give me a link to the Trello,I'd be very appreciative! (I lost the original link :C)
@rantology This is rather good news! I'm gonna go check out the Trello (don't really look at it) and see what's new! I can't wait to see what the future holds for NS2!
EDIT:Umm.....hehe....i-if anyone could possibly give me a link to the Trello,I'd be very appreciative! (I lost the original link :C)
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
Minor thing that may alleviate players not feeling like they're contributing would be to add the top assisting player to the kill feed in the upper right like cs:go has.
Additionally for a extra level of polish, consider having players evolve in first person to reduce the amount of times the player's viewpoint breaks. NS1 had a cool effect where the alien's fov and height would gradually change to the level of the lifeform the player is evolving into, and seamlessly go from one lifeform to another.
Minor thing that may alleviate players not feeling like they're contributing would be to add the top assisting player to the kill feed in the upper right like cs:go has.
Additionally for a extra level of polish, consider having players evolve in first person to reduce the amount of times the player's viewpoint breaks. NS1 had a cool effect where the alien's fov and height would gradually change to the level of the lifeform the player is evolving into, and seamlessly go from one lifeform to another.
Another thing that evokes the thought of"What the fuck was broken"
Personally, I don't want to see NS2 simplified. Tweaked and polished yes. Tutorials and training methods and meaningful, relevant practice to Polish up while not in multiplayer - hell yes. But simplify? That would break part of what makes NS2 special. Hearing that development was ramping back up, I have been playing again, and even though my performance is bad to mediocre against the dedicated players that haven't stopped, I'm reminded of why I always looked at this game in my library and thought "why is this game dead? I really wish it was HUGE".
Please don't dumb it down! Give players the tools to learn every aspect of the game and really practice in a non-competitvive environment, but don't water down this amazing, one-of-a-kind experience!
Another thought, regarding counters - I've always felt the energy drain from being set on fire with a flamethrower wasn't drastic enough to really be useful. A Fade should be in serious trouble against a flamer. As it is now, but the fade can get in a swipe or even kill the flamer and then still have the energy to blink away. Other life forms just charge through and kill you, too.
If I'm misunderstanding or if something has changed along the way, please let me know. I haven't used one in ages since it felt useless.
As a newbie myself, I would like to see how I get killed so easily every time, it could be the best tutorial
which means, is it possible replay a few seconds - in my enemies' FOV ? just like they did in COD
Comments
I've finished collecting and organizing all the suggestions in the original document. I'm pretty sure I got everything, but if you don't see something that was suggested, please PM me and I'll add it in.
It's important to note that this document and thread are a brainstorming activity. This is not a list of changes that are intended to be implemented. Please keep the discussion going, there's a lot of great ideas here.
After reading through all the suggestions, I feel that's it is pretty clear that a lot can be done to simplify the game through 'polish' before needing to resort to gameplay changes. The things like reordering the evolve menu and adding descriptions that can aid players in learning each lifeform's movement style caught my attention in particular.
I have to ask: why should spores - which are an incredible crowd control tool in their current form - be low risk? Simplification shouldn't come at the cost of interesting and often useful mechanics. Perhaps there's an argument to be made for giving spores an alt fire (ranged) with a different (higher) energy cost, but NS2 generally veers away from alt fire attacks in the first place, and I'm not sure the added utility would be worth the increased complexity. I'd argue that the combination of spores and umbra already gives the lerk an excellent late game position re: team support. Furthermore, lerks can already contribute a great deal without those upgrades, especially if you consider their ability to harass jetpackers and chip ill-attentive exos from afar.
Beefing up the lerk seems to run counter to the defining characteristics of the lifeform: a high-mobility glass cannon with multiple offensive and defensive options. The check on the lerk's mobility and versatility is its fragility. People forget that it's an unrecoverable 30 p.res investment which can be absolutely annihilated by a single competent shotgunner at any choke point, and which can be repelled from almost any distance with lmg fire when chipping.
If animation transitions are the problem because a subset of good lerks depend upon them to effectively manipulate hitboxes in their favor, then the animation transitions should be worked on first and foremost so that this doesn't happen. Everything else sounds like overreaching at this point in the discussion.
Thank you for the validation.
If you change this then somebody will complaint and a new thing (named "That"), etc...
Better make changes that have a bigger scope that will please a majority.
Maybe something like this : https://feedback.userreport.com/19e981d4-394e-46de-997e-8913cc04aff2/#idea/76517
What about allowing a commander to open a UI to perform command functions from anywhere, rather than requiring them to be locked away in some specific place? Could be as simple as opening the map. They could do what is needed and then rejoin the action. Of course, for safety's sake being locked away in the hive or command chair would be the best place to be. But other times they might be able to be just as effective popping in and out of the UI while doing other things in the action game.
Tier 1 spores were once in this game and adjusted over many builds to find that sweet balanced spot before they were moved to T3 and powerful. (This addresses @mattji104 's concern)
The idea is to step away from the current weapon configuration for the lifeform, which is high risk and high risk - to high risk (bite) and low risk (spore) - in order to lessen the curve in learning and playing arguably the most difficult class for rookies. They have a hard enough time learning how to fly; let alone hovering, while dodging, pancaking, and spiking, from the perfect distance, and then knowing when to leave the room on time etc etc ...
Compare this to the aforementioned Peek > Shoot > Fly away employment.
Provide an easy to use and effective mechanic that is not OP, (we already have those values) yet retain that high risk bite (would now be higher risk with fixed animations) engagement to retain the skill ceiling.
This is just so that the class is easier to learn and yet still difficult to master.
Why are we restricted only to making them easier to kill for rookies and not making them easier to learn how to play as well??
But if ranged, whatd you do?
Co-op Campaign http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/127498/unofficial-co-op-campaign where players start as Marines, and can progress through various challenges and enemies at more or less their own pace as a small team of ~4-8 people. This would allow them share information and learn the game together very easily.
I think ranges spores would be easier on rookies, while retaining a high skill curve.
This.....this...document....everything in it is.....is...........*sniff*.....IT'S BEAUTIFUL!!!!! Now I know nothing is guaranteed,but just knowing that the Devs/CDT are just considering these wonderful suggestions.....it warms my heart to see that you guys actually listen to us!
And I know this suggestion isn't really that big.......but SCORE for the Bio-Luminescence getting in! Woo!......yeah I'll go now
@coolitic Yeah,any one of these could be game breaking if done incorrectly! But even if it was,i'd still be excited to get some new features in NS2! Especially if it involves....B-bio-Luminescence.....i'm sorry it's just so pretty!!!
The bioluminescence is getting more attention that this document. It has already been put on the official trello board to be worked on, but only as an experiment. I don't know if it will go in, but at least it is being seriously considered.
Sorry,I've always been fascinated with Bio-Luminescent creatures,they're so pretty! But Bio-Luminescence aside,I love almost all suggestions in that document! (Especially ranged attacks for Fade,wonder how that'll work out.....)
Are we talking about spores that only damage health and not armour?
The reason I ask is because the damage that spikes do to armour is incredibly useful for the alien team as it reduces the number of bites/swiped required by the team to the point it is often mandatory to have effective fades/skulks in the mid to late game. Repairing armour damage requires marines to retreat and find another marine to weld them. Spikes become even more effective as armour decreases since it is directly reducing their health requiring a lot more medpacks.
Spikes do damage to health and armour and therefor force the marine commander to spend tres on meds and forces marines to spend pres on welders.
Is there a reason why spikes need to be on tier 3 and not tier 2? Playing a lerk with a high risk bite, spores and umbra just seems incredibly dull at tier 2. I don't find umbra spamming to be especially rewarding since I can't really gauge the impact it is having even if I know it is having impact. I suggest the following:
Tier 1 Spores, Bite
Tier 2 Spikes
Tier 3 Umbra (This could possibly be an upgrade to spores so that it does spores and umbra at the same time, rather than awkward spamming of 2 gases)
or (who said we can only have one unlock per tier?)
Tier 1 Spores, Bite
Tier 2 Spikes, Umbra (separate unlocks)
Tier 3 Primal Scream or Lerk Bilebomb
Lerk bilebomb was tested and was found to be OP during balance mod testing I understand. But honestly I think as a tier 3 ability I don't really see the issues since the movement/animation jerking wont be the same ?
But thank you again- this thread has been immensely eye-opening and helpful. Even though you might not see immediate and direct change in the short term, the feedback here will continue to be referenced and trickle through many of our choices to come for a long time.
(And keep posting if you have something more to add!)
EDIT:Umm.....hehe....i-if anyone could possibly give me a link to the Trello,I'd be very appreciative! (I lost the original link :C)
http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/dev-update-new-communication-channels/
(Killer + Assist [Killer's Weapon] Killed)
http://counterstrike.wikia.com/wiki/Kill_assist
Additionally for a extra level of polish, consider having players evolve in first person to reduce the amount of times the player's viewpoint breaks. NS1 had a cool effect where the alien's fov and height would gradually change to the level of the lifeform the player is evolving into, and seamlessly go from one lifeform to another.
Another thing that evokes the thought of"What the fuck was broken"
Please don't dumb it down! Give players the tools to learn every aspect of the game and really practice in a non-competitvive environment, but don't water down this amazing, one-of-a-kind experience!
If I'm misunderstanding or if something has changed along the way, please let me know. I haven't used one in ages since it felt useless.
which means, is it possible replay a few seconds - in my enemies' FOV ? just like they did in COD