Simplifying NS2 - Thoughts on Gameplay (feedback wanted!) - Natural Selection 2

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  • GrissiGrissi Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2003-08-28 Member: 20314Posts: 488 Advanced user
    rantology wrote: »
    For one of the first changes, what does everyone think about the possibility removing cysts? I want to try and push for one change as soon as the opportunity affords itself and I'm trying to think what might be the most interesting/rewarding to try in terms of positively changing the feel of the game.

    To go into detail: This would not remove infestation. Only the cyst structure itself and the tedious upkeep (from both teams) that goes into them during the course of a game.

    -You would no longer need infestation to drop structures as an alien commander.
    -Structures would not automatically grow if they are dropped off-infestation and you'd still require drifters and/or gorges to build them.
    -Infestation would spread automatically via an "invisible" cyst chain from the hive to nearby (1 room or so) structures - Infestation would also spread from structures themselves
    -Infestation-reliant abilities like Bonewall and Rupture would remain unchanged and usable

    This would eliminate:
    -The need to constantly fuss over your cyst chain as Kham (and for newer players to figure out the hows and whats of fussing over your cyst chain)
    -Having to constantly shoot cysts as marine (and especially in cases where aliens gain a lead and the alien commander starts cyst spamming the map)
    -The need for certain map design choices/limitations

    There would need to be some minor adjustments to alien RT cost and grow time to accommodate the removal of cysts.

    I know this is somewhat of an odd change considering the topic at hand but I do think cysts add an unneeded amount of complexity and the feeling of being a 'chore' to the gameplay (they are tedious for veteran players and 'noob traps' for newer players [on both teams]). This is of course not something that has been confirmed or set in motion or anything of the sort. I am just posing the idea to gauge interest in trying this out.... and should it become a reality I also want to emphasize that of course nothing in the game is permanent. If we were to implement it and it turns out that it doesn't work out the way everyone expected- we'd have the option to revert it (we'd also probably release it as a mod for testing first).

    I would say finally! Would be an awesome change and make the game so much better in the long run.
    There is no competitive balance or casual players balance. The game is either balanced or not balanced.
    It's the same game after all.


    NS1 competitive play


    All my posts are my personal view, I do not speak for a community or anyone else.
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  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
    rantology wrote: »
    -Infestation would spread automatically via an "invisible" cyst chain from the hive to nearby (1 room or so) structures - Infestation would also spread from

    This means if an alien comm/gorge has a structure built across the map behind enemy lines the invisible cyst chain won't paint a big line directly to it, right? Perfect if so.

    I'm eager to see these changes happen.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,193 admin
    @rantology Infestation would have to no longer dmg armor on marine structures, and purely just be a visual demonstration of territorial lines / encroachment.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    Soul_Rider
  • Deck_Deck_ Members Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Posts: 298 Advanced user
    edited December 2015
    IronHorse wrote: »
    @rantology Infestation would have to no longer dmg armor on marine structures, and purely just be a visual demonstration of territorial lines / encroachment.

    That's a good point. I don't think that changes too much though. How often does that change the outcome of a game? I don't think about it enough. Also, let's say Aliens had an RT infestation out to the area the marines are trying to ARC from. You could still have that infestation do damage if you want, or you could remove the damage entirely. It would make it harder to ARC or move marine structures too close to infestation since you are running into bone wall areas and taking slight damage. Or with phase gates - if they were built on infestation they could take slight damage as a penalty for building too close to an alien base. That would force marines to build phase gates farther away or take the risk of losing your phase gate faster. Could be better or worse for gameplay. These would have to be play tested and could go either way.
    Post edited by Deck_ on
  • krOozekrOoze Members Join Date: 2014-04-24 Member: 195593Posts: 278 Fully active user
    edited December 2015
    Since you are feeling so active, I too will dump my mind, which has enough ideas to keep you busy for next 10 years ;P You know TL;DR. Feel free to ignore. It is mostly for my peace of mind anyway :)

    I read the document in the blog and, well, my opinion is that you are kinda sorta little bit trying to fix things that aren't broken or at least work in some sense. (Certainly, what is in there would not be at top of my priority list, if I was thinking about the new recruits and alien cubs - but sure, it would be on the list somewhere).

    I have categorized problems/posible solutions(if I have any good ones) to 4 types:
    1) The game needs to inform better, and provide good environment to learn (I assume learning is additional fun in any game, if aplicable).
    2) The game have things/features/upgrades that does not participate in the game(some features are simply uneffective and a trap for newbies)
    3) Things that are broken, wrong, unintuitive, annoying, frustrating or so unrealistic it hurts (can helps newbies, if things work according to common sense)
    4) Some brand new things, that can be fun (and do not brake too much existing and working things)

    The actual problems:

    1 a) The Map, M-menu, X-menu, Evolve menu and submenus and Prototype lab have bad discoverability. -> Make key binding visible on-screen on apropriate places. Improve interactible buildings more visible on map.

    1 b) Map is rarely properly used by new and even <100 h players. -> Maybe make it purchasable, so players appreciate it more. Make it very clear in tutorial it should be used ALL THE TIME. If you do not open your map for 30 seconds, there is a chance you are doing something wrong. 1 d) also would help.

    1 c) People rarely use "concede" in appropriate situations. Those last stands get old fast. -> Make it clear in tutorial it is okay to lose/concede. Maybe allow commander to concede for the team (perhaps allow 10 s vote to overrule).

    1 d) Newbies overcommit/overdefend/focus too much on one thing. -> Allow commanders to put (multiple) objectives/tags on map (other than "expand"). It will be commanders fault if those objectives are not reasonable. I suggest e.g. something to the meaning "defend", "attack", "build" - especialy for sneaky PG, "slow down enemy progress only", "abandon", "scout", "recap/reaquire(assume no/low opposition)", "harass/hit and run", "box in/attack carefully" and "storm now". Maybe even some XO can make those instead of comm. With that feature clunky individual player control can be removed.

    1 e) Newbies wander off, in the worst case even loosing onos or JP+weapon. -> Assingn to them "Seargeant" (closest skilled player of appropriate class -> JP to JP newbie, SG or rifle to GL newbie, gorge to onos etc.). Idealy someone with mic. And make them aware of each other (the parasite-like vis should work) and distinguish them when they talk over mic.

    1 f) Skilled players stack against newbies. Newbies do not know how to handle that situation, so bad game starts. -> Do not allow badly stacked games to start. Spread newbies evenly among teams. Newbie is an another name for "support class". Surely the team which can get more from their assigned newbies will win!

    1 g) Newbies get JP/weapon, Exo, Onos, Fade too rarely to learn. Also encounters are too rare and too swift and usualy 1 vs 1 veteran for them to learn aim and manuvering-> It helped me a lot to play Combat and Siege, when I started. Also recommend 42 player servers to them, where they can move in groups and shoot/chew often and at least hit something.

    1 h) Game informs poorly about the concrete purchasables/evolutions. They even mislead that the purchase is ubiquitous upgrade.-> They need MORE visible label what their tactical thing actually is. Something like Skulk-"Basic allaround class", Gorge - "Support and ranged anti-structure", Lerk - "Agile anti-personel", Fade - Assasin class, Onos -Tank class. Or even tags/gauges how they do in department of "agility", "structure demolition", "personel killing" and "support". Similarily for marine weapons - shotgun="you need aim", GL="good long-ranged, poor short-ranged", FT="bad anti-liveform, good anti structure"...

    2 a) Nobody uses: web, stab, contamination, railgun exo. Limited or awkward use: Flamethrower(I use it to only kill Skulks by the sheer chaos and lags it causes. Somewhat useful to have 1 max 2 FT in team vs buldings), babblers, xeno (only useful against turtle), sentries(lowly bile gorge kills those expensive things fast)

    2 b) Lot of combinations of liveform+upgrade doesn't even make sense. It doesn't even feel like a choice. Does anybody use a Adrenaline Skulk(vanilla skulk rarely runs out of energy)? Celerity Gorge(when you need lot of energy for that spit, heal and slide)? Phantom Fade (knowing where marines are, so you don't run in large group seems way more useful, than hiding for liveform that can get easily close to marine and run whenever it wants). Regeneration - useful only on game where you don't have crag, gorge, tunnel or hive closeby(sounds more like bad-comm/gorges game). -> Not sure what to do about that...

    2 c) Most of the buildings are superfluous to the gameplay. Comm will just build them somewhere safe and they will usually survive untill the end of game. The game is only about the hive/CC, power, PG and observatory and crag -> Maybe limit the building count in one room or even allow only one building in every room with RT. That will even make those power nodes and sentries more useful.

    3 a) You fixed the loading times nicely. Now fix the delay to actual round start! -> I guess enforce FET (maybe allow player to state side preference in options). Choose randomly two even commanders(that means even rookies! They will finally get live practice and fair game!). Aaaand we have game in 5 seconds. And of course add vote to menu for classic team creation(sure FET is not for all situations).

    3 b) Bunny-hopping marine. In which military school do they teach that? -> Make it maybe just a little bit more SWAT-like. You know - covering your comrade, covering the exits, positioning. I guess railing stunts and whatnot are okay, but the usual skulk marine dance, where you don't know, who is the skulk and who marine? I did grow acustomed to it, yes. But what would the newbie trained by physical reality think of that?

    3 c1) Damage lag. I hate it. Even with low ping I hear usualy only 4 shots or 1 bite before I die. I hate it. It seems so unfair -> Maybe at least play those hit/bite sounds even fake ones. Could actualy help those newbies to know it WAS their mistake and no game bug and also to learn how many shots/bites does it take to kill.

    3 c2) Damage lag. I hate it. I have a rifle. I track a skulk. I aim at his head and end at his tail, never leaving aim at his body inbetween. I count 6 rounds fired. Then it shows the damage - something riddiculously small like 10 or 20. -> Well the rifle animation and sound is wrong( at least for single shot fired, where it skips and cuts the sound).

    3 d) I hate that you need to know the stupid shotgun pattern to do actual damage. -> Change the pattern, save the newbie. Maybe you could try shotgun damage based on the area of circle and distance the alien covers (that means low computation complexity, but instant travel time bullets).

    3 e) Those basic crosshairs are bad. Too low contrast. That weird lower crescent on rifle is misleading for me. I gave up my strict no chat policy about my 200th h of this game and went to custom crosshairs. Ergo: New players are even more disadvantaged vs veterans who mostly uses them -> make better CHs or allow broad ingame CH choice. Maybe enable crosshairs for alien, which will help newbies to chew.

    3 f) Tunnel/PG death and bug. Hate when the tunnel is trying to swallow me and fails to do so(or PG fails to transport causing PG clog), when I need to run away. Also that death when you are already inside and die from nothing. -> Maybe just teleport the dead player to the place of his real death( less anoying, frustrating and rage causing = good for new players?)

    3 g) You know, the Builder looks more high-tech with those nice techy beams than the welder. Also welding potentionaly nuclear power node or your fellow marine - what could go wrong? -> Maybe swap the tools.

    3 h) In every sci-fi, FTs are good for clearing vents. -> Maybe propagate damage in vents. Make the flame follow the wall it hits. Seems simple, but sure not as simple as the tick-based FT implementation...

    4 a) maybe take custom maps, polish them, give them a UWE stamp and make them available on most servers.

    4 b) Infestation doing some more mess if unchecked by marines. Maybe slow healing, preventing scan, medpack, ammo, faster structure/armor damage. Could make Contamination more useful.

    4 c) make the game more about destroing enemy upgrades (instead of whole hives and CCs) and allow both teams to potentionaly upgrade everything to maximum( on even defensive games ). Maybe something like the solution to 2c).

    Sorry to steal some ideas from others. And sorry for the wall of text on your webpage :) I was aiming to list everything I could think of (sort of to outline a complex alternative to the original document from developers). What do you think?
    navazka
  • IntrepidHIntrepidH FloridaMembers Join Date: 2015-12-09 Member: 209838Posts: 55 Advanced user
    hey Rantology,
    rantology wrote: »
    For one of the first changes, what does everyone think about the possibility removing cysts? I want to try and push for one change as soon as the opportunity affords itself and I'm trying to think what might be the most interesting/rewarding to try in terms of positively changing the feel of the game.

    My thoughts here is that so much time has gone into the asymmetrical design of infestation so much already that completely reworking it and coding hive to hive infestation only seems kinda sad to me,

    right now noob marines come in and (aside from their team very vocally announcing to them that they suck and are losing) they see the infestation as a constant reminder of the map control going on,

    as alien kham I feel there are few situations where this kind of change would allow me to viably take over a rt far away from where I am situated and accomplish much with it, aside from maybe setting up a shade for an incoming tunnel, and furthermore does little to aid in new player syndromes,

    rather than rescrapping cysting entirely, I think revisiting existing tech would be more interesting such as either
    -giving clogs a very small radius of infestation so gorges now work much more closely with the Kham to infest the map
    -dropping contamination to biomass 2-3 (iirc, Contams Hp scales with biomass so contam at this biomass level would only have around 2-3 hundred hitpoints for a 5 Tres purchase)

    this way ruptures/mist/bonewall are still erupting from infestation which is easy for new players to note, and the general atmosphere of the game retains the feeling of infestation washing over the map for victorious Aliens.
    just my 2cents of feedback :D

    If anyone has any comments on my post from page 5 as well i'd be interested to hear :)
  • Deck_Deck_ Members Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Posts: 298 Advanced user
    edited December 2015
    Scatter wrote: »
    Since cysting is about 50% of what the alien commander does, what is its job now exactly without cysting? Happy with the changes proposed though.

    On another infestation related note; can we please get infestation to cover the entire room that is within the alien control and not just form blotchy coverage as is currently the case with cysting? Right now it spawns 6 points at a certain maximum range and with a 20 metre or so radius about the point that actually infests. Looks terrible.

    Well the good thing about alien commanders is you can jump out of the hive a lot and help your team. Also it would free up alien commanders to use drifters more which could be an added benefit. NS1 didn't have alien commanders and that worked fine. So limiting the things an alien commander has to do so he can assist more I don't think would be a bad thing. Also great use of the drifters vs helping out your team in a rush or as a gorge could be the main focus of an alien commander. More active potentially.
    Frozen
  • TinkiTinki Members Join Date: 2013-12-03 Member: 189715Posts: 110 Fully active user
    edited December 2015
    IronHorse wrote: »
    So something that might assist with this is increasing the chances to learn and fail.
    Maybe a simple warm up or a simple game mode could do wonders for getting hands on time to practice separately from a robust tutorial.
    I am thinking quick to engagements, fast to respawn, and containing an objective similar to one that may play out in a normal NS2 round. (never pass up an opportunity to teach the right thing!)

    Maybe play that game mode for 5/10 min then the map changes to a classic round, rinse and repeat etc

    Combat Mod was very close to that. This is how me and others learned to play lifeforms. But yeah...... it doesn't exist anymore.

    IeptBarakatrek.netIronHorse
  • Deck_Deck_ Members Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Posts: 298 Advanced user
    edited December 2015
    Any thoughts on removing turrets from NS2? The reason I don't like turrets is when marines place them in base. The base rush is an important play for aliens early to mid game. By placing turrets well in your base, you remove the ability to rush base unless you get bile bomb or have onos a lot of the time. With mines, you can have a skulk jump on them, or can be killed pretty easily by lerks. Turrets really change the way the game is played and I think for the worse. Motion tracking is not in this game, but was in NS1 - I'm proposing to remove turrets as well.
  • FearlessJamesFearlessJames Members Join Date: 2015-12-09 Member: 209849Posts: 88 Advanced user
    Hi! This is my very first post on the forums,and I thought I might add my own suggestions! :smiley:

    1.[Bring back Shadow-Step!] I know many Fades just use blink,but Shadow-step has saved me so many times by quickly shifting away from a mine or grenade. It also helped me close in on Marines without my screen getting all distorted!

    2.[Both teams have their own "Lights."] If I recall correctly,someone a few pages back suggested that Aliens used bio-luminescence as lighting,and Marines would use...erm...lights! Instead of having the ugly red emergency lights turn on after the power went out,what if it stayed off? It would make fighting in the dark REALLY scary and fun,and encourage Marines to use flashlights more and stay close to one another! (They should stay grouped always!) Plus,walking into a dark,orangey glowing room would surely give off the message "You're in Kharaa territory now..." And since people are suggesting the removal of cysts,what if instead of spreading infestation,they gave off Bio-Luminescence? It would allow players to still use cysts AND have infestation without the chore of cyst-chains! And maybe Alien Vision (or whatever it's called) could let you see even better in the dark instead of just outlining geometry?

    3.[Make Fades "Mist like" again while blinking!] As you can tell,I LOVE the Fade! And when I bought the game in December 2012,seeing that blue,misty figure flying around scared me so much! Plus,since it was hard to see,in small dark areas it would actually give off the illusion of them teleporting! But now they're barely "covered" by the mist,and now it looks like their awkwardly flying around. I went into spectator to watch it from a distance....it look really....stupid. Seeing a fade fly around in the air just took away the scaryness of it,and made it more annoying to get killed by a flying alien. (Not you lerk!) If it were misty again,it would bring back SO much nostalgia,and possibly make it easier for fades to escape in dimmly lit areas,and bring back the illusion of teleporting! (Isn't that the Fade's signature anyways?!)


    Sorry for the long post. I hope you like the suggestions I posted! Also,i'll probably be commenting here alot,I recently got back into NS2,and I am SOOOO happy to see the Devs working on it again and actually listening to suggestions! That's all! :smiley:
    "Humans evolve within millions of years,but I.....evolve within seconds......"
    Tinki
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NYMembers, Constellation Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Posts: 1,481 Advanced user
    Have commander spawn as gorge to build his own shit, fun ensues. I dont think infestation needs to be coming from structures at all, but it doesn't bother me. I think that you can just use cysts as an entity separate from building. Add cool new comm abilities that they can use in place of getting upgrade chambers.

    It's akin to the leap strat where you forgo upgrades to get a second hive and leap ASAP. Whoever said it is right, there's no need for extra new coding, and no need for a waste of the existing.

    Repurpose and add new is my feel. Just make it so the marine don't shoot cysts to kill buildings, they'll kill cysts to weaken the alien resistance.
    mattji104
  • WyzcrakWyzcrak Pot Pie Aficionado Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2002-12-04 Member: 10447Posts: 920 mod
    I commonly use cysts to prepare for bone walls in the map area halfway between my most forward structure and the oncoming Marines (this is the area in which Onos/etc will be retreating vulnerably). I also sometimes use cysts to echo eggs to forward locations where I have no structures.

    I accept that some valid uses for cysts are not justification for keeping cysts.

    I'd love to see them remain for optional use, and I'm plenty receptive to evaluating their total removal.

    Loving the brainstorming.
    TGNS Portal | NS2 side-by-side game viewer
    IronHorse wrote: »
    TG's win or lose mod that replaces the concede function is the best of both worlds and should be official.
    IronHorse
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,193 admin
    Tinki wrote: »
    IronHorse wrote: »
    So something that might assist with this is increasing the chances to learn and fail.
    Maybe a simple warm up or a simple game mode could do wonders for getting hands on time to practice separately from a robust tutorial.
    I am thinking quick to engagements, fast to respawn, and containing an objective similar to one that may play out in a normal NS2 round. (never pass up an opportunity to teach the right thing!)

    Maybe play that game mode for 5/10 min then the map changes to a classic round, rinse and repeat etc

    Combat Mod was very close to that. This is how me and others learned to play lifeforms. But yeah...... it doesn't exist anymore.

    Right, exactly. However the only issue (besides integrating combat officially) is that combat is so very different in regards to objectives and upgrades and UI etc that I was thinking something more familiar to classic mode - like assaulting a hive in crossroads or some close spawn / instant respawn / PGP mod like setup but basically as a minigame mode or warm up.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    Tinki
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    @rantology if we do that by removing cysts and making infestation like that, we need some rine adjustments also.

    Like give the marines the same with their nanotech. If you make it visible or not by something blueish is your choice.

    This means if you would try to do a alien comm ability like bonewall off infestation in a marine controlled area, it would still not work.
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  • Deck_Deck_ Members Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Posts: 298 Advanced user
    edited December 2015
    ^ IronHorse - I like your idea, but the goal is to teach players how to use lifeforms more effectively. I don't know if having a pre warmup round helps as much as it could. There is already pre-game mod in a lot of servers that allow you to test out a lifeform. Having that standard and a set time for it could help, but I don't know if that addresses the difficult part of this game - getting the movements down to be the most effective. It can't hurt, but I think there needs to be some kind of training mode that requires users to do certain movements or teaches them to do certain movements to accomplish a goal would help more. I'm sure a lot of players when they first play this game don't know the right or wrong way to move. I think there has to be some instructional guidelines to what works and what doesn't as a skulk/lerk/fade/onos. So maybe your idea is a good step, but maybe an extra level too could help.

    It wouldn't hurt also if people could watch a video on what a pro player or verteran player does when he is a certain lifeform - what concepts he thinks about - what movements he makes at what times. We could just go with what you laid out and hope people take the time to learn it for themselves, but it takes a lot.
  • FearlessJamesFearlessJames Members Join Date: 2015-12-09 Member: 209849Posts: 88 Advanced user
    I agree with Benson. I can run NS2 on low settings at about 30-24 FPS,(it used to run ALOT better in the past,but then updates :\) so having a large increase in performance would help me ALOT. (And 'm sure it'd help alotta other people too!)
    "Humans evolve within millions of years,but I.....evolve within seconds......"
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,193 admin
    Deck_ wrote: »
    ^ IronHorse - I like your idea, but the goal is to teach players how to use lifeforms more effectively. I don't know if having a pre warmup round helps as much as it could. There is already pre-game mod in a lot of servers that allow you to test out a lifeform. Having that standard and a set time for it could help, but I don't know if that addresses the difficult part of this game - getting the movements down to be the most effective. It can't hurt, but I think there needs to be some kind of training mode that requires users to do certain movements or teaches them to do certain movements to accomplish a goal would help more. I'm sure a lot of players when they first play this game don't know the right or wrong way to move. I think there has to be some instructional guidelines to what works and what doesn't as a skulk/lerk/fade/onos. So maybe your idea is a good step, but maybe an extra level too could help.

    It wouldn't hurt also if people could watch a video on what a pro player or verteran player does when he is a certain lifeform - what concepts he thinks about - what movements he makes at what times. We could just go with what you laid out and hope people take the time to learn it for themselves, but it takes a lot.
    That's exactly what's being worked on - a robust tutorial.

    So this would merely complement, not replace, the needs of a tutorial. Learning how not to play a higher lifeform very quickly and repetitively in 3 minutes time is far more valuable than twice an hour at great frustration.
    Pre game mod is a superb start, it'd just need faster time to engage and maybe an objective /polish to make it a mini game.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • Deck_Deck_ Members Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Posts: 298 Advanced user
    edited December 2015
    ^Sounds good regarding the mini game. Just make sure it's clear that this is a mini-game - warmup round for actual NS2. Practice lifeforms/shooting during this time while trying to complete the objective or something. Also maybe this would go on all rookie friendly servers - but certain servers could hopefully remove this part of the game. Perhaps allow for pre-game mod on non rookie servers, and put this new mini-game idea on all rookie friendly servers. I like the idea. It's combat mod in a sense without taking players away from the normal game. Just don't make it too much fun or people won't want to play the regular game.

    In order for it to not feel like a normal game, and be like a warmup/deathmatch round - perhaps have everyone spawn on marines with a pistol vs all skulks for aliens - and it would say practice your pistol shooting and skulk play. That would last for like a minute, then it would switch to all shot guns vs fades or something and so on. There has to be a way where people are battling each other, but also doesn't feel like the regular game. It will be more boring than regular NS2 which is good (don't want people to prefer the mini-game) but you also have incentive to try things out.

    Also while you are practicing your pistol or fade for example - a little pop-up would appear on your screen saying - want more practice/techniques for this life form?- go to tutorial under options and click on fade for example or however it was laid out. This ties the two ideas together and doesn't force a user to do certain tutorials, but strongly encourages them if something peaks their interest.
    Post edited by Deck_ on
  • ScatterScatter Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Posts: 635 Advanced user
    edited December 2015
    Benson wrote: »
    Also, on lifeform training:

    There was an idea a while ago for a "Capture Point" style version of NS in which there were no commanders, and players would capture Resource and Tech points by standing in their area.

    Players could use their accumulated resources to purchase weapons and gear to "Unlock" new gear and upgrades, that they could then buy at will, without additional cost.

    Pretty much, Vanilla NS2 without any RTS elements, re-buy costs, or additional bells n' whistles from combat.

    Similar to what I am making with the NS2:Assault mod, unless that's what you're talking about. Still in development as I write this.

    Soul_RiderBenson
  • BensonBenson Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Posts: 1,296 Advanced user
    @Scatter

    That very well may be what I'm thinking of, lol. I really only remember that it was a great concept.

    I have the memory of a gold fish.
    If we are to be damned, let us be damned for what we really are. - Capt. Jean Luc Picard
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NYMembers, Constellation Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Posts: 1,481 Advanced user
    Imagine this scenario: You're pushing into an alien hive, say we're on ns2_tram attacking Warehouse from Ore Processing.

    You push with several marines into server, covering your entry with nerve gas. In the mist you stand defending your buddy who is building a 20 tres power node that a gorge starts bilebombing. Another buddy comes in to cover the bile with a flamethrower.

    Eventually you're able to get the power node up. The commander activates a room-wide passive catalyst-like passive boost, that costs 20 more res, and last 15 seconds. With this boost, after desperately holding on, defending teammates, and using other resources available to you, you're able to take the hive.

    I think that just sounds fantastic.
    mattji104
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Posts: 1,994 Advanced user
    edited December 2015
    @mattji104 that reminds me of the Legacy of The Void trailer, where the Protoss desparately defend a pylon being warped in, and the large reinforcement that follow. NS2 needs more epic moments like that and the one you described, other than just ninja PG strategies.
    Post edited by twiliteblue on
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NYMembers, Constellation Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Posts: 1,481 Advanced user
    @twiliteblue I wasn't at all talking about ninja gates there. For the record
    mattji104
  • YojimboYojimbo EnglandMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Posts: 1,252 Advanced user
    edited December 2015
    What's the state of the Wikipedia? Someone mentioned integrating an Encyclopedia, we could feature that on the main menu and on the escape menu so people will always have the convenience of accessing information about lifeforms, weaponry, structures etc.

    I think one of the underlying problems with NS2 is that a wealth of information is so freely available but it's all over the place, outdated, unconsolidated. Only just now we are unifying the community under Discord, which is a great move by the way. We should unite all our community and information that's easily accessible in-game and out of game. We don't notice this problem as much as the majority of us are regulars and veterans but I am pretty damn sure the problem is magnified for rookies. No wonder they have such a hard time.

    I used to get lost in the Total War series encyclopedias for hours.

    Having a wealth of information ready for you to be accessed conveniently is NEVER a bad thing.

    If you think this is a good idea, vote for it!

    https://feedback.userreport.com/19e981d4-394e-46de-997e-8913cc04aff2/#idea/76174
    Post edited by Yojimbo on
    Today's rookies are tomorrow's vets.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

    George Carlin.
    NordicNominous
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    edited December 2015
    The integrated enclepedia in Depth helped me learn that game.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    Yojimbo
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