Well, that's a bit of a mess - Natural Selection 2

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  • rkfgrkfg RussiaMembers, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-09-03 Member: 187744Posts: 476 Advanced user
    Decoy wrote: »
    @rkfg The potential problem with that is getting players to actually play.
    Still better than nothing and it doesn't cost anything (almost). If no one else would play you still have current playtesters.
    Decoy wrote: »
    You have to swap between the Live and Beta version every time, which can be a significant download.
    I don't think it's a real issue. Games are updated constantly and almost any Steam user is used to update hundred of megs. I even see some players could leave at the beta branch forever just because it has more features or better in other ways. To support them you may introduce a common opensource workflow with stable, beta and nightly builds. You test nightlies within your team then roll them over the beta branch so eager players could test it better. And when you're sure it's ready you update the stable branch that goes to everyone and also is used on the official events like NSL matches.
    Decoy wrote: »
    LuaJIT was released to the beta branch early and despite my own swapping over to it 2-3 times, I never actually saw a full game on it. A server with a handful of people playing around with it, noting it was cool, then bailing.

    Probably not that exciting for an average player... Also, for instance, I haven't even heard about it. If the beta branch comes to stay, it's a part of the workflow and it gains enough publicity then people would more likely use it. SteamDB shows that a beta branch already exists so it just needs to become "more official". I only heard about it before the 276 build (IIRC) was about to go live.

    You may also announce the upcoming update (as a huge red message!) somewhere in the main menu. Not everyone reads the forums or twitter, it's easy to miss. This way we could switch early and check if everything's in place.
    Especially Linux players. For example, Dreamfall Chapters has issues after switching to Unity 5, there's been no Linux beta and that is a predictable outcome -_-
    Intel Core i7-7700k, 32Gb RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 1070 GTX driver v430.40, Debian Testing GNU/Linux amd64, Awesome WM 4.3, kernel v5.1.7
    Decoy
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    Im sorry @HEllrunner2k but im with @Supafred on this one.
    yes it is bad, and yes reverting is a top prio, but calm down man. You should know by now that things like shine and ns2+ are things which can break on patchday.

    Normally this is tested beforehand. So far I know it was indeed tested beforehand. Now I can only guess about the reasons but I assume it will probably have been like "test > works > someone changes something to break it > rush release". This is why you test without mods on patchday first.


    No worry @decoy, ill take this convo to steam for the replies. :P


    I truly feel bad for the CDT. It totally reads as if they are pushed aside. I mean, really Hugh REALLY?
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  • simple_simple_ Members Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188102Posts: 41 Fully active user
    lamb wrote: »
    UWE/CDT communication is worse than Do it yourself's.
    But not as bad as chams communication.

  • hozzhozz Members Join Date: 2012-11-20 Member: 172660Posts: 340 Fully active user
    edited December 2015
    I recently reinstalled the game. Good to see nothing has changed :smiley:

    Update right before Steam sale that breaks the game? Check!
    Shitty communication/pissing everyone off needlessly? Check!

    Though that must have been the worst non-apology I've seen yet. And "it's the CDT's fault but noones fault" ... wtf, if I were on the CDT i would be pissed right now. You hire half of them and insult the others?
  • Jones108Jones108 Members Join Date: 2012-12-10 Member: 174670Posts: 95 Advanced user
    edited December 2015
    Maybe you should just allow us to test the beta build on steam.
    Hugh
  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise landMembers, Reinforced - Onos Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Posts: 1,543 Advanced user
    edited December 2015
    Jones108 wrote: »
    Maybe you should just allow us to test the beta build on steam.
    Isn't it what we are doing already ?
    ChubbChubbs ???

    Reach me on NS2 forums in :
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  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,193 admin
    Sinking this thread so that the reversion thread gets back to the top - where people can continue to report any further issues that they may have.
    For the time being you can still access 278 through the beta branch in steam.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • LokiLoki Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2012-07-07 Member: 153973Posts: 564 mod
    :(
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    2cough
  • RicezRicez Members Join Date: 2013-04-13 Member: 184784Posts: 120 Advanced user
    It seems like the CDT are no longer required but nobody wants to say it.
  • ZekZek Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Posts: 4,690 Advanced user
    edited December 2015
    Honestly most of these blog posts have a serious case of foot-in-mouth disorder. I know you have good intentions Hugh but I think you need more of a filter for front page posts. Talk these things through with the internal stakeholders first and then come to us when there is a course of action.
  • NarfwakNarfwak Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5258Posts: 3,787 admin
    Ricez wrote: »
    It seems like the CDT are no longer required but nobody wants to say it.

    The CDT encompasses playtesting. Unless UWE wants this to happen literally every patch that's not a good idea. We have enough trouble keeping playtesters motivated as it is and this isn't helping.
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  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,193 admin
    lamb wrote: »
    I'm positive that's the reason.
    70% of the reason, to be truthful.
    For information access sake I do like informative posts being at the top, with drama / no longer relevant info near the bottom.

    But also, what's been done wrong is over and done with - it's better to roll forward than to dwell.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    HEllrunner2k
  • Cannon_FodderAUSCannon_FodderAUS Brisbane, AUMembers, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185664Posts: 877 Advanced user
    @Asraniel @Decoy Thank you for the concise answers. I generally try to avoid bickering about politics of community management etc... But felt strongly about this to write this post. I think Hugh doesn't realise the love of the game from the community that frequent these forums. Alot of us have clocked over 1000 hrs in the game (I just passed that this week). Many of us are passionate about the game, and only want the best for it no matter the development model.

    @Hugh As PR person you should tap into that, and just be straight up about what happen, explain the problem (patch broke game), and accept responsibility (apologise), and tell us what you are doing about it (revert the patch back). There done. For lack of a better generalisation, we are not CoD players. This community probably has a very high average age because we appreciate slow tactical and methodical game play and not pure twitch shooting (I would play Q3 in that case), and stuck with NS through NS1 then onto NS2 (that would put us a minimum 25+, hell I am 38).

    To the CDT, your work is definitely appreciated by all of the community. You have kept this game alive through QoL changes, updates and optimization. It was your hard work that had pulled the community together. Thank you.

    As an aside, despite the janky hit reg, what matters in game (for rookies at least) is a friendly community. Was playing with an 80% green team last night, and @Scatter and I helped them out by giving tips and generally steering on how to play and have have a good time, and they loved the games. It was very positive, except I got a sore throat from talking so much.

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  • RejZoRRejZoR SloveniaMembers, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-09-24 Member: 188450Posts: 292 Advanced user
    I missed the 278, but considering my luck with damn hit reg in general, I'd probably be the only one with absolutely perfect hits in 278...
    Reinforced - Shadow Supporter | Retired NS2 Playtester | Babblers Fan Club | Gorge Plushie & Gorge Mommy Plushie Owners Club
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  • Saffron_bakerSaffron_baker SwedenMembers Join Date: 2015-06-09 Member: 205352Posts: 492 Advanced user
    I aggre with @IronHorse it is time to show the good side of the cominity! The past is in the past just make sure we learn from it!!
  • PuphBallPuphBall Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-06-06 Member: 185488Posts: 61 Fully active user
    I feel like a child who's parents are divorced, shuffling me between the 2 caretakers. Hopefully NS2 isn't negatively affected, I love this game.
  • BensonBenson Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Posts: 1,296 Advanced user
    edited December 2015
    PuphBall wrote: »
    I feel like a child who's parents are divorced, shuffling me between the 2 caretakers. Hopefully NS2 isn't negatively affected, I love this game.

    Remember, as a child of divorced parents, even if you get passed back and forth, you also get 2 of every holiday ;) (2x the presents!)

    The CDT gave us so many good things.

    Hopefully official Development can give us just as much!
    If we are to be damned, let us be damned for what we really are. - Capt. Jean Luc Picard
    Saffron_baker
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
    Benson wrote: »
    PuphBall wrote: »
    I feel like a child who's parents are divorced, shuffling me between the 2 caretakers. Hopefully NS2 isn't negatively affected, I love this game.

    Remember, as a child of divorced parents, even if you get passed back and forth, you also get 2 of every holiday ;) (2x the presents!)

    Until it bites you in the ass once you become an adult and have to buy presents for 2x the families in the end.

    (I know that feel.)
    UncleCrunchSaffron_bakerIronHorse
  • BensonBenson Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Posts: 1,296 Advanced user
    edited December 2015
    Do what I do, "lose contact" with one of them! (j/k)
    If we are to be damned, let us be damned for what we really are. - Capt. Jean Luc Picard
  • moofreemoofree Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Silver Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34622Posts: 25 Fully active user
    edited December 2015
    I think that with 278, the CDT is suffering unfairly at the hands of a flawed development model. UWE came up with the model, and the CDT was stuck with it.

    This is definitely true. During the alpha and beta, I kinda expected the development model and release schedule to change upon release.
    That didn't happen- after release, development proceeded more or less the same as during the alpha. The fact that we're still referring to releases by build numbers is a symptom of this.
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
    moofree wrote: »
    I think that with 278, the CDT is suffering unfairly at the hands of a flawed development model. UWE came up with the model, and the CDT was stuck with it.

    This is definitely true. During the alpha and beta, I kinda expected the development model and release schedule to change upon release.
    That didn't happen- after release, development proceeded more or less the same as during the alpha. The fact that we're still referring to releases by build numbers is a symptom of this.

    I'm still aggravated there are build numbers displayed on the hud. Sure you can easily date screenshots for technical reasons but it just adds to the feeling the game is at an unfinished state.

    Keep that stuff in the main menu or the console.
    moofree
  • trinity.nstrinity.ns Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2008-12-07 Member: 65688Posts: 137 Advanced user
    edited December 2015
    Zek wrote: »
    Honestly most of these blog posts have a serious case of foot-in-mouth disorder. I know you have good intentions Hugh but I think you need more of a filter for front page posts. Talk these things through with the internal stakeholders first and then come to us when there is a course of action.

    @Hugh Sorry to say this, but I wholeheartedly agree. Please discuss this internally before you post about it. And don't mix two unrelated things into one blog post (hitreg issue and UW picking up development again).

    Maybe try to have someone else cross read your posts before you publish them and get some feedback. I really love the game and want this to succeed. Don't screw it up for us /:
    Think outside the box? Burn the goddamned box!
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Posts: 1,786 Fully active user
    edited December 2015
    The perception of throwing the CDT under the bus doesn't concern me as much the refusal to fix a critical show stopper simply because of what seems to be office politics (I know the cdt is working to fix it, but this does not seem to be uwe's supported position which is a rollback). A characteristic of good leadership is to recognise that past work is inseparable from your area of responsibility regardless of circumstance, especially if it's already released to the playerbase. Also seems slightly dodgy way to conduct contracts.

    Anyway, I'm genuinely intrigued by what is actually meant by the new iterative system as opposed to the 'monolithic' system. What disadvantages did the latter have, and what advantages and efficiencies does the former bring? Is this an experiment itself? From my limited perspective the only meaningful difference seems to be less time between updates and therefore more risk of quality standards not being met, unless i guess you drop the quality standards or just do less risky stuff. I'm not really seeing the space to conduct sweeping game changing, game reviving changes - can anyone enlighten me?

    Or is hugh talking about a stealth change system that allows them to hold 'experiments' on a region by region basis to act as controls? Interested to see what actually happens in the coming weeks.
    Gorge bilebomb forever.
    Wyzcrak
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