For Derelict, I think the reason it failed is it was apparently balanced and play tested for 6v6 in a game where there is virtually no public 6v6 server. So perhaps there is a thriving competitive scene with a lot of private 6v6 servers, but given the relatively small number of people playing on public servers, I very much doubt this.
The asymmetric nature of the game makes it so that the maps need to be extremely carefully designed to achieve anything remotely close to balance. In particular, aliens need a lot of nook, cranies and clutter to be able to move in cover, and if you look at the subset of maps generally considered good (the ones from UW), you'll see they did a lot of efforts to make sure that the architecture is irregular. Navigate the roofs of for instance biodome and you'll see a lot of clutter there giving you many options to break line of sight from marines pretty much everywhere.
Do the same in derelict and you'll see mostly a lot of boxy corridors and rooms with low ceilings and very sparse cover.
And of course, aliens also need alternate ways and vents to be able to bypass choke points.
However all those features require more work than making relatively plain and boxy rooms, which seems to be why a lot of new maps fail.
KanehJoin Date: 2012-12-11Member: 174783Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
imo derelict isn't bad. It's just.... why play it when you can play summit?
like derelict is actually decent, a couple more vents for res biting is the biggest issue, but... again.. why? the design is way too similar to summit, and summit is just so much better because its gone through many more iterations.
eclipse is too snowbally. the balance isn't bad, its just too easy to win/lose based off early game. There's always a point in the game where a team is waiting to die, and it comes much too early in eclipse.
kodiak is frustrating because it feels 'unfair'. the big plant areas lead to too much dying to stuff like lerks/skulks where you're more likely to just call bullshit and get frustrated than realize crap he was hiding in a corner. Even if its balanced, the feeling isn't good. The same reason most people hate playing versus cloak and cloak as a concept frustrates a number of people.
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
alright @kaneh you just answered alot of my questions and only one remaining: what is wrong with refinery that it doesn't get played 6v6 competitively?
alright @kaneh you just answered alot of my questions and only one remaining: what is wrong with refinery that it doesn't get played 6v6 competitively?
Late response, but refinery has the same issue as kodiak with the big central room. It 'feels' unfair and bullshitty. Lots of kill triggers also doesn't help the feeling of fairness. There's some historical stigma where refinery was horribly balanced, I believe marines had no natural nodes or something? I think its still pretty hard for marines to hold res, but haven't played it competitively enough to understand the nuances of the map.
For Derelict, I think the reason it failed is it was apparently balanced and play tested for 6v6 in a game where there is virtually no public 6v6 server. So perhaps there is a thriving competitive scene with a lot of private 6v6 servers
Comments
The asymmetric nature of the game makes it so that the maps need to be extremely carefully designed to achieve anything remotely close to balance. In particular, aliens need a lot of nook, cranies and clutter to be able to move in cover, and if you look at the subset of maps generally considered good (the ones from UW), you'll see they did a lot of efforts to make sure that the architecture is irregular. Navigate the roofs of for instance biodome and you'll see a lot of clutter there giving you many options to break line of sight from marines pretty much everywhere.
Do the same in derelict and you'll see mostly a lot of boxy corridors and rooms with low ceilings and very sparse cover.
And of course, aliens also need alternate ways and vents to be able to bypass choke points.
However all those features require more work than making relatively plain and boxy rooms, which seems to be why a lot of new maps fail.
like derelict is actually decent, a couple more vents for res biting is the biggest issue, but... again.. why? the design is way too similar to summit, and summit is just so much better because its gone through many more iterations.
eclipse is too snowbally. the balance isn't bad, its just too easy to win/lose based off early game. There's always a point in the game where a team is waiting to die, and it comes much too early in eclipse.
kodiak is frustrating because it feels 'unfair'. the big plant areas lead to too much dying to stuff like lerks/skulks where you're more likely to just call bullshit and get frustrated than realize crap he was hiding in a corner. Even if its balanced, the feeling isn't good. The same reason most people hate playing versus cloak and cloak as a concept frustrates a number of people.
Late response, but refinery has the same issue as kodiak with the big central room. It 'feels' unfair and bullshitty. Lots of kill triggers also doesn't help the feeling of fairness. There's some historical stigma where refinery was horribly balanced, I believe marines had no natural nodes or something? I think its still pretty hard for marines to hold res, but haven't played it competitively enough to understand the nuances of the map.