The almighty wall jump speed and sound
UncleCrunch
Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos
Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos
Hi,
It's been a long time since i wanted to bring that to light.
In a distant time i was on a server and the fight was kinda intense.
I was going toward Crevice to kill that harvester. I heard a sound like this: "rowr rowr rowr". I knew there was something coming here. I did prepare by positioning myself to make sure not to miss. Wall jump doesn't allow you to turn to much without loosing speed. So it's usually straight lines.
As I knew where the skulk would wall-jump, it was clearly a trap for the skulk. I did killed it though I'm sure he did a perfect sequence and therefore should at least wound me. Nothing of the sort happened. I just got a rag doll at my feet.
I see the guy rage quit after that. If the situation was inverted I would have probably done the same. I can't help thinking about it on a regular basis when having the same kind of trouble on my side.
When you build up speed to a level that you clearly master wall jumping, it's just ruined by the sound it makes.
It's so easy to hear the specific sound that whatever you are good at it or not, it just doesn't matter. You give away your position, and give the opponent time to prepare.
This example on crevice : Wall jumping did not help to save the harvester nor to change anything. I had time to prepare and it's quite an advantage (even though I'm a lousy marine shot). Needless to say at some skill level you just don't go unnoticed with wall jump. It's more like a sitting duck contest.
On other situations : if i is not used to attack it is used to get to the 'hot spots' faster. While your teammates are waiting for you; the sound it makes signal every marine on the area to keep eyes and ears opened. Surprise effect = ruined. I mean I think it's louder than a "hive drop".
I think it's a concern that on a game of skilled moves (WJ, StrafeJump, clog piling, blink/metobolize etc..); this specific move is just rendered close to useless because of this traitor sound. I mean Silence (when available) is a better choice than Aura if you are the running man of the game.
I don't say it's useless, but it's clearly rare to be able to use it 100% to your advantage. The downside is clearly lowering the efficient use of it.
What would be the best to make it back in business for real ?
Lowering the sound ? Or lowering the bullet damage (like umbra) ? A bit of both Or else ? What do you think ?
It's been a long time since i wanted to bring that to light.
In a distant time i was on a server and the fight was kinda intense.
I was going toward Crevice to kill that harvester. I heard a sound like this: "rowr rowr rowr". I knew there was something coming here. I did prepare by positioning myself to make sure not to miss. Wall jump doesn't allow you to turn to much without loosing speed. So it's usually straight lines.
As I knew where the skulk would wall-jump, it was clearly a trap for the skulk. I did killed it though I'm sure he did a perfect sequence and therefore should at least wound me. Nothing of the sort happened. I just got a rag doll at my feet.
I see the guy rage quit after that. If the situation was inverted I would have probably done the same. I can't help thinking about it on a regular basis when having the same kind of trouble on my side.
When you build up speed to a level that you clearly master wall jumping, it's just ruined by the sound it makes.
It's so easy to hear the specific sound that whatever you are good at it or not, it just doesn't matter. You give away your position, and give the opponent time to prepare.
This example on crevice : Wall jumping did not help to save the harvester nor to change anything. I had time to prepare and it's quite an advantage (even though I'm a lousy marine shot). Needless to say at some skill level you just don't go unnoticed with wall jump. It's more like a sitting duck contest.
On other situations : if i is not used to attack it is used to get to the 'hot spots' faster. While your teammates are waiting for you; the sound it makes signal every marine on the area to keep eyes and ears opened. Surprise effect = ruined. I mean I think it's louder than a "hive drop".
I think it's a concern that on a game of skilled moves (WJ, StrafeJump, clog piling, blink/metobolize etc..); this specific move is just rendered close to useless because of this traitor sound. I mean Silence (when available) is a better choice than Aura if you are the running man of the game.
I don't say it's useless, but it's clearly rare to be able to use it 100% to your advantage. The downside is clearly lowering the efficient use of it.
What would be the best to make it back in business for real ?
Lowering the sound ? Or lowering the bullet damage (like umbra) ? A bit of both Or else ? What do you think ?
Comments
The guy you're describing made a tactical error. That does not warrant a balance adjustment.
I don't think KB did an tactical error this time. I would have done the same to try to save it. The harvester was low. The diversion was kinda a good move. Keeping my bullets to hit the harvester was saving time. It's just that, WJ can't really be used as a offensive asset when building up this kind of speed. Therefor top speed is "unusable" (is it a English word ?).
It's adding to the "brick skulk" feeling. Because you can't turn, and lag doesn't help this time... while Strafe Jump allows incredibly clueless marines to escape hopeless situations helped by the very same lag.
Hmm...
I get fragged some times by good players who run at full speed. I know he's coming, he knows that I know he's coming - but that doesn't matter when I'm in the middle of a reload because I just killed his two slow skulk team mates. Likewise I'm frequently in the opposite position. That is the type of opening I'm talking about.
A skulk is not supposed to beat a marine 1v1 - top speed or not. I thought we had established this already.
If anything I wish they included the dog panting noise for the intermediate speed. They said they would and never did. Left with only the growl.
It's imperative it remains this way, else you have those insane beta skulks that we had for a short while that had full air control and speed and were basically gods with teeth.
Like santaclaws said, he would have done well to differ his approach if it meant a predictable pattern out in the open on a marine that is waiting for you.
As for the sound, it's a part of one of the main pillars of design for NS2; being able to detect your enemy's plans if you are aware enough.
This works from the macro (only skulks so far in the round ) to the micro (hearing a gorge build structures in the next room) and is important to have to put emphasis on positioning... which is a hugely important concept in a ranged vs. melee game.
You can achieve with Celerity a speed up to 15. I noticed that without celerity is became more and more difficult to go to a speed of 11 (the limit at which the sound plays).
The 1vs1 case is always situational. In some places, Marine should win, in some others, alien should win. It depends on the area, nooks. And still, the 1vs1 talks in these forums never included the >11 speed. There is no full speed (limit) to my knowledge.
If the trade-off is maneuverability; why on earth the sound is there and played so loud ?
He could have done nothing to save this Harvester as he simply wouldn't get there in time (from Atrium to Crevice) without the speed. He did delay me to kill the harvester faster. It was the right choice. He did try to remove the threat with a supposedly great asset (speed) but ultimately only delayed the harvester death. So the trade-off was sacrifice for time, leaving another teammate to try to intercept. Considering the specifics of the Crevice area (opened) and this situation, of course.
But; It would have been the same in some other area. The obvious problem isn't if it is an open area or not. It's just every marine knows you are arriving before you can even see one or HEAR one. The marine can practically pin-point you (left right with stereo). At least if the sound wasn't giving the direction where the danger comes from, it would be somewhat ok. But it's just not the case.
So you can't use it:
- in combat
- in case of emergency (get there to save it)
- if you want to be unnoticed in any situation (At least not pin-pointed a mile away). So even a gathering is out of the question.
What's left ? If it's not useful, one can ask : why it's there ?Another question remains. If we were to compare the WallJump and StrafeJump. Why is there no downside to StrafeJump ?
There is no strafe jump for marines.
Therefore there is nothing to compare it to in NS2.
But as said before, the increased speed needs to come with tradeoffs. In NS1 bunnyhopping was very predictable, as is strafe jumping from Quake. Walljumping is somewhat predictable, but also does increase the sound footprint.
Honestly, a good marine with decent headphones would most likely hear even a walking skulk approaching in that situation, unless they sneak-walked the entire way.
There are situations where it is useful to bomb into rooms with full walljump speed, plus its useful to traverse the map quickly. In combat its not always super useful, but thats because its better to dodge as many bullets as possible at that point, which means being evasive.
I can confirm 15,2. But i didn't do it with "leap on spawn" (as i understand it).
* Its a trade off.
* Even a not walljumping skulk can be heared fairly easy.
* If the marine could kill of a entire harvesters health, aliens were sleeping if out of position to handle it.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with the whole situation minus bad alien play.
Maybe, you're referring to something else. If not the comparison is about number of downsides. Walljump have 2, Strafe Jump : 0.
FYI I believe that thread was in response to when a true strafe jump ability was added to marines, which increased their lateral acceleration. That is NOT in the game anymore.
Also note that a skulk can strafe left or right and jump, just like a marine can. They however do not get slowed when landing, and have slightly better acceleration and a higher top end speed.
Its not something that is always apparent to newer players, but its much more effective to crash straight into a marine when biting him, or at least stop moving forward for the most part. You want to be on the ground and able to strafe to match the marines movements as best as possible.
The slower speed only occurs if you're using something like the mouse-wheel to jump and roll it endlessly. It takes 10 sec to train and make a little wait time between jumps to be able to jump again at maximum speed in ANY direction. Left / right, Left / right et voila!
You can achieve from 0 to 5.9 (+/-) speed by using the same gesture (Strafe left , turn left and jump).
If already moving it can go up to 6.7 (running speed is 6.5).
It looks like a frog. Considering the lag issue this game has and many other things. It doesn't take much time to see a marine "warp" somewhere else. I mean everybody use it... It's not for nothing right ?
That's the fun part of it. The skulk at maximum speed is a easy target and do not warp due to the predictable trajectory while the marine is completely shifting between dimensional planes. I often see this in my engagements (like he never saw me coming) and from a distance (2 other players). EU server are far as 30 to 60ms. This tends to happen with players with low pings... weird.
I think giving more armor to the marines would have been better in the end. I think Marines at heart are so ... not capable of doing anything else than fancy moves (in others games too) that they will try to keep this forever. It just show more clearly the flaws this game has. Too bad.
There is no lag issue. Whatever this is that you are referring to is either a poorly performing server, bad connection or some client issue. Someone 'warping' has either a BAD connection themselves or the server is experiencing poor tickrates.
The marine while jumping is a predictable target - he cant wildly change directions, or really do much more then shoot at you and slightly drift.
People jump because it is effective, I never said that it wasn't. Most players have a tendency to look straight ahead as a skulk. With your low camera angle to the marine and lower vision from the animation of biting, it is quite common for skulks to lose track of the marine as he jumps. The jumping animation for marines has them tucking their legs up both quickly and quite far, ideally that would be changed (but its a lot of work).
I see the warping on any one and any server. Everything is green light on my side.
The trajectory of a jump is of course predictable. It's when you change direction between jumps. 180 degrees is possible. The fasr skulk goes along a straight line more or less.
I don't have any issue aiming and landing my bites. From the top, bottom, left or right; if i decide to sneak on a marine i make sure he won't expect me (otherwise i don't engage). Everything goes flawlessly until the jump sequence starts.
Again i saw that from a distance too on a regular basis.
If its the server everyone should warp.
If only one or a few persons warp, I can only image that client just having a poor connection.
With all the servers taw runs and all the logs I have digged in over the course of many patches, I have never seen any indication of warping unless either a server or clients connection went to crap.
Yes obviously all can warp if the server would be stressed, but I am talking good servers here.
Low ping does not equal no packet loss.