Natural Selection Free to Play

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  • PelargirPelargir Join Date: 2013-07-02 Member: 185857Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Forum staff Posts: 1,199 mod
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    You're not aim botting are you @Pelargir ?

    'Cuz if you're aim botting... that makes you a horrible person.

    I'm a horrible person. :(
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    Marginally better accuracy at best. I don't believe for one second that you never ever say to yourself "whoa, I can't believe I hit that guy".

    No but seriously, I often say to myself when I should hit something "wow, I can't believe I didn't hit that guy".
    I'm not saying Marines will be overpowered but once fixed, you should finally see your bullets hit your enemies. Or least, no see any difference between what you see on your screen and what really appears ingame. It's always been an issue to me to either see blood coming out of the alien but no damage, or even the hit sound with again, no damage. Fix this and people will be happy, I can honestly say all the competitive players will be more than happy to see this fix working. It may not represent that much for you, but it'd have a massive effect over the player.

    So maybe I misinterpreted the real fix, if so, please explain.
    "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"

    "However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results."


  • PelargirPelargir Join Date: 2013-07-02 Member: 185857Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Forum staff Posts: 1,199 mod
    Prommah wrote: »
    @Pelargir is a known aimbotter, it's how he became head NSL admin.

    And he has even recruited more aimbotters into the staff, such as Prommah.
    "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"

    "However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results."


    SupaFred
  • amoralamoral Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177250Members Posts: 1,331 Advanced user
    Mephilles wrote: »
    well if the hitreg issue is raising the accuracy like 10% for each marine then yes it would need rebalance but I assume that would only gain on average +3% at most and I don't think there is a rebalance needed for that

    ... do you understand how much 3% actually is?

    my accuracy on a good day ranges from 20-25. lets just say it's 21 for arguments sake, now you're telling me i'm hitting 23-28? you're talking about a 14 percent increase in damage...
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,191 admin
    Pelargir wrote: »
    So maybe I misinterpreted the real fix, if so, please explain.
    The difference you'll notice the most are those point blank shotgun hits that draw blood but no damage. (excluding the ones that occur JUST before you die, which are unfixable so long as network rates remain the same)

    The rest are just very small extremity shots that might have been lost when at high speeds.
    Like say for instance you shoot at the top bones on the back of a skulk moving perpendicular to your position while they jump off walls and leap... if you aim center mass you're fine. If you aim at the top 20% of the model you're fine... But sometimes (depending on lateral difference of aim to the direction of the model) if your bullet hit the last 5% of the top of the model as it fell, the shot may have been discarded.

    So might there be an increase in accuracy? Possibly.. but it's going to be negligible for the majority of users, and mostly the difference will be seen with those disappearing shotgun meat shots.
    It's almost impossible to predict the difference considering we have never had a system that records what hits are thrown away in normal gameplay - until now.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    Mephillescoolitic
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,262 Fully active user
    amoral wrote: »
    Mephilles wrote: »
    well if the hitreg issue is raising the accuracy like 10% for each marine then yes it would need rebalance but I assume that would only gain on average +3% at most and I don't think there is a rebalance needed for that

    ... do you understand how much 3% actually is?

    my accuracy on a good day ranges from 20-25. lets just say it's 21 for arguments sake, now you're telling me i'm hitting 23-28? you're talking about a 14 percent increase in damage...

    3% of 20-25% is 0.6-0.75%. That might change an engagement or two but isn't all that much. It might even bring alien winrate down to 50-50 (yeah right).

    But, as pointed out by people who actually know what the hitreg fix entails, it probably won't even do much.
    QUOTE (EEK)
    Don't assume that because I said something it means I actually was thinking that the core of the sun was going to be replaced with hot dogs.
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    edited July 2015
    Wheeee wrote: »
    amoral wrote: »
    Mephilles wrote: »
    well if the hitreg issue is raising the accuracy like 10% for each marine then yes it would need rebalance but I assume that would only gain on average +3% at most and I don't think there is a rebalance needed for that

    ... do you understand how much 3% actually is?

    my accuracy on a good day ranges from 20-25. lets just say it's 21 for arguments sake, now you're telling me i'm hitting 23-28? you're talking about a 14 percent increase in damage...

    3% of 20-25% is 0.6-0.75%. That might change an engagement or two but isn't all that much. It might even bring alien winrate down to 50-50 (yeah right).

    But, as pointed out by people who actually know what the hitreg fix entails, it probably won't even do much.

    Look at it this way. It takes 9-10 lmg bullets to kill a skulk with no carapace at weps 0, depending on whether or not it regens. Let us say 10, for the sake of easy numbers.

    10 / 0,21 = 47.6 - so it takes 48 bullets to kill the skulk. It takes 2.33 sec to shoot that many bullets.

    10 / 0,24 = 41.7 - so it takes 42 bullets to kill the skulk. It takes 2.03 sec to shoot that many bullets.
    Notice here, if your accuracy is below 20%, the number of bullets would be higher than 50, which is the clip count. Meaning you'd have to account for reloading on top of all of this.

    In other words, the difference between 19% and 22% would be huge. Assuming we, for what ever reason, can't use the pistol or hatchet of course.

    2.33 - 2.03 = .3 sec <-- I think that is a significant enough picture to tell that this is actually a big deal.<br>
    1 - 2.03 / 2.33 = 12.9%

    So with a 3% increase in accuracy, in this particular instance, you kill the skulk 13% faster.


    I crunched the numbers to see the difference between weapons 0 and weapons 1 at 21%.

    wep 1: 2.09 sec

    1 - 2.09 / 2.33 = 10.3% (roughly what you'd expect, since it's a 10% increase in damage)

    So if you want to maintain that 3% increase in accuracy doesn't make much difference, then you should probably skip weapons 1 in-game.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-51U-16J1Jqam0MQ1mH7Ft-Yj6tJgGEgOL1UkNSVp3I/edit#gid=0
    Post edited by SantaClaws on
  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members Posts: 622 Advanced user
    You're working on different bases. Whee meant 3% of your current accuracy, not 3% of your total bullets, so its much less. Maybe the playtesters came give their experience as to which is it? It could be just a marginal less frustrating experience without any actual changes to accuracy.
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,262 Fully active user
    it's silly to expect a flat increase to accuracy across the board. is someone who normally averages 10% accuracy going to suddenly aim 30% better? no. Any accuracy increase will relate to how well you can already keep the crosshair over the target.
    QUOTE (EEK)
    Don't assume that because I said something it means I actually was thinking that the core of the sun was going to be replaced with hot dogs.
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    Wheeee wrote: »
    it's silly to expect a flat increase to accuracy across the board. is someone who normally averages 10% accuracy going to suddenly aim 30% better? no. Any accuracy increase will relate to how well you can already keep the crosshair over the target.

    I see, I stand corrected. I was mostly going by amoral's post who seems to be making that mistake as well as far as I can tell.
  • NotPaLaGiNotPaLaGi Join Date: 2014-05-29 Member: 196291Members Posts: 103 Advanced user
    edited July 2015
    Ridiculing contributing members of this community for your own ego doesn't fly around here.
    Use the disagree button or have actual contributing content to provide instead. -Iron
    Post edited by IronHorse on
    Tane
  • MendaspMendasp I touch maps in inappropriate places Valencia, Spain Join Date: 2002-07-05 Member: 884Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Retired Community Developer Posts: 4,177 Advanced user
    edited July 2015
    Pelargir wrote: »
    even the hit sound with again, no damage.
    This is literally impossible, hitsounds are sent from the server, they are tied to damage numbers.
    IronHorseSoul_Rider
  • TaneTane Join Date: 2004-10-25 Member: 32441Members, Constellation Posts: 123 Advanced user
    If the hitreg will someday be same level as before the launch it will be a really big balance change. Just to go watch logitech or launch tournament to see difference and back then you had op skulk strafe movement.
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  • roxxkattroxxkatt Join Date: 2014-12-28 Member: 200431Members Posts: 167 Fully active user
    Mendasp wrote: »
    Pelargir wrote: »
    even the hit sound with again, no damage.
    This is literally impossible, hitsounds are sent from the server, they are tied to damage numbers.

    o snap get logic'd upon, son
    #shrekt
    #tyrrannosaurusrekt
  • PelargirPelargir Join Date: 2013-07-02 Member: 185857Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Forum staff Posts: 1,199 mod
    roxxkatt wrote: »
    Mendasp wrote: »
    Pelargir wrote: »
    even the hit sound with again, no damage.
    This is literally impossible, hitsounds are sent from the server, they are tied to damage numbers.

    o snap get logic'd upon, son
    #shrekt
    #tyrrannosaurusrekt

    In what school did you study your sense of humor? I think I met you someday on a public server. Hum...
    "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"

    "However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results."


    wooza2coughcoolitic
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    Not only does his posts have arms in them, he makes nice alien visions too.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • amoralamoral Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177250Members Posts: 1,331 Advanced user
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    Wheeee wrote: »
    it's silly to expect a flat increase to accuracy across the board. is someone who normally averages 10% accuracy going to suddenly aim 30% better? no. Any accuracy increase will relate to how well you can already keep the crosshair over the target.

    I see, I stand corrected. I was mostly going by amoral's post who seems to be making that mistake as well as far as I can tell.

    @Wheeee @SantaClaws I was going by the fact that on most servers i get a nifty popup that will tell me my accuracy at the end of a round (even sans onos)

    and when someone said increase by things like 10 percent and 3 percent they meant directly changing that figure by +10 and +3...

    not multiplying it by 1.1 and 1.03... because that would assuming people like complication.
  • CCTEECCTEE Join Date: 2013-06-20 Member: 185634Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 772 Advanced user
    edited July 2015
    Pelargir wrote: »
    Or least, no see any difference between what you see on your screen and what really appears ingame. It's always been an issue to me to either see blood coming out of the alien but no damage, or even the hit sound with again, no damage. Fix this and people will be happy, I can honestly say all the competitive players will be more than happy to see this fix working. It may not represent that much for you, but it'd have a massive effect over the player.

    So maybe I misinterpreted the real fix, if so, please explain.

    Not really the same but still: would it be possible to delay the display of your own mine-kills when also engaged in combat?
    I find myself so often thinking the skulk i am shooting is dead when in fact its some random minekill somewhere else on the map. :(
    grrrr im beast
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    Maybe we should consider a Free Demo instead of Free to Play.
    • Only a set amount of official rookie-only servers would be accessible.
    • Make a progression system where, i.e. you have to play a tutorial before you can command - requirements that you can skip if you buy the game.
    etc. Just spitballing here.

    I think the main benefit with the demo model over the free to play model is, there doesn't need to be a fully fledged out skin store or anything like that to generate revenue. The business model will basically be the same as it is now.
    moultanoStardog
  • ghostdlrghostdlr Join Date: 2015-07-02 Member: 205950Members Posts: 45 Fully active user
    Look at the negative Reviews on steam page :
    http://store.steampowered.com/app/4920

    The main reason people are complaining is the lack of players . Second reason is the toxic community .
  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 1,542 Advanced user
    F2P - Demo, whatever2play won't change anything as the rookies can't stay because of the many issues described on the forums. It will be more meat, at best. Once you get the rookies interested to go further, it'll will work. Paid mode or not.
    ChubbChubbs ???

    Reach me on NS2 forums in :
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  • ghostdlrghostdlr Join Date: 2015-07-02 Member: 205950Members Posts: 45 Fully active user
    edited August 2015
    Here are some ideas:
    1. Rookies shouldn't be allowed to enter the command station
    2. Commander Bots . If no one enters the command station in first 2 minutes, a bot should take over commanding and game will start . Commander bots can be replaced by normal players any time . This will eliminate a lot of frustration ... even on wooza servers , there are times when no one wants to command and we waste 10+ minutes waiting .
    3. Rookie only servers . This way they won't get raped on the first game. Since rookies can't enter command station, a bot will command and they can just have fun shooting aliens .
    An alternative would be that Experienced players to only be allowed to play commander on rookie servers .
    4. Cooperative vs bots mod . A team of 6 rookies vs 6 bots . Dota 2 and CS GO have something similar .
    This way they can practice without getting raped . I noticed there are already an NS2 bot mod implemented , but bots won't go commander .
    5. Bots joining empty slots, similar to CS GO Competitive mod. When a player joins an empty server, the remaining slots are filled by bots ... so it will be 1 human and 11 bots . When a new player joins, a bot gets kicked until 6vs6 humans remain . This way the empty server problem can be fixed .
    6. Warm UP mod integrated by default . I've seen it on a coupe of servers ... players get access to all tech and unlimited resources until a game starts . This way rookies can practice easier and won't get bored when people keep jumping out of the command station.
    7. NS2 Free week-end , Humble bundle discount or Free to Play
  • BensonBenson Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 1,296 Advanced user
    edited August 2015
    UncleCrunch is right, rookie retention will kill any F2P attempt, but at least the CDT are investigating a lot of rookie-retention tools and server types!


    But there also needs to be something to keep players to get too good for rookie servers, but dont want to play comp.


    I played on a Captains Server that had a whole gui set up for picking captains based on player votes, and then allowed those captains to select their teams!

    It made it very easy for high-quality games without the need of server admins moderating things.

    I'd hope this mod gets looked at for official integration or at least wider use. Captain games, even when no one knows each other, at least are manually balanced based around hive skill and perceived player performance



    @ghostdlr

    CDT Rookie improvement ideas
    If we are to be damned, let us be damned for what we really are. - Capt. Jean Luc Picard
    BabblerKing
  • ghostdlrghostdlr Join Date: 2015-07-02 Member: 205950Members Posts: 45 Fully active user
    edited August 2015
    Finished editing my post :D . Check it now . Cooperative vs bots would be a good way for new players to learn without getting raped .
    Benson
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